885 réponses à ce sujet

[Crunchyinmilk]

Helping them is equally as pragmatic as leaving the village for reasons i have already stated. Thinking any different requires metagaming on your part.

You are here because you have no other leads, all the other nobles think you are criminals and will attack and you need political support. You have no choice.

The zombie village as a threat is non existent. They only have a toe hold because there's no one worth a damn to fight them! If Redcliffe had a fighting force worth recruiting (right then), they wouldn't have been overrun.

If you're there early in the game then its perfectly logical to write Redcliffe off, you've got other allies to find. If you're there late game, the set up is still lacking for motivation. No way are the forces at Redcliffe the tipping point. They're not 'just enough' for you to take on the Horde, you're still well short of that when you do save the town. So if you're there for political muscle, the smart money is on the Arl being dead, and Teeegaaaaaan is a featherweight.

I would have preferred if it was the location that was important. If Redcliffe was clearly strategic like Ostagar was. Clear it out as a place for your troops to hole up in. It would also help the post landsmeet scenario go down easier.

If you where a rogue force occupying strategic crown land, Loghain has to deal with you one way or another, and conveniently the blight/horde is swelling between your 'tower' and his.

[Crunchyinmilk]

Kozuka78 wrote...

The main character is a grey warden, and 'his' argument for turning his back on the village and not riskng himself is that he is too important to lose. Which is a valid argument.

Morrigan however holds no such position of validated self importance. She has the power to act and would choose not to because she would rather 'hundreds' (assuming we are talking about a realisitc population number for redcliffe and not just the represented characters) of people to die. Perhaps not evil but selfish, cowardly and immoral, certainly.

There is only an excuse for the grey warden not to act, there is no such convieniant way out for morrigan. she would simply let hundreds die rather than risk herself.

Hello did you play this game?

She's an APOSTATE MAGE.

She's reviled and shunned by the general populace. Do you think a one of those villagers would ****** on her, after they set her on fire? Is she morally obliged to help someone who will turn around and kill her or worse? Small wonder she objects when you ask her to risk much, for the sake of those who mean her harm, just so you can play hero.

[Creature 1]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...
Wild animals don't choose a leader with political wrangling or favour trading.

Go watch a group of chimps or bonobos. 

[Xandurpein]

It's really a game mechanic problem too. How do you differentiate someone who does apparantly good deeds, for selfish calculating reasons from someone who does it from the goodness of their hearts. The game can only record your actions, not your intentions.



Ideally I think the best way to do this would be something like this:



1. The player does something, say save Redcliff or whatever.

2. A companion who might disagree voice his or her objections.

3. The player gets the option to explain why they are doing it. If the explanation is selfish and plausible it would appease Morrigan, but also cancel any approval for the act from say Leliana, because she now also knows this was just a selfish act - it might even lead to -approval with Leliana.



Force the player to explain their actions and have ALL present companions judge the player both for the outcome and for the explanation.

[robertthebard]

Kozuka78 wrote...

how do you know? put yourself in the position your player is in before he has completed any substantial part of the story.

Morrigian is just a mage, and an irrational one. She is replaceable and not important at all. As are the other companions other than allistair.

If you decided to play the game following morrigans own logic you would probably end up killing her yourself for wasting so much of your time, or for being an unknown element that cannot be trusted.

Morrigans task might be to help the grey warden, a convieniant excuse to avoid putting herself at risk when she doesn't want too, considering she goes out of her way to avoid doing anything the grey wardens stand for (which is basically protecting people).

The only part of the game that dictates you need morrigan is the mechanics which make mages so damn op. Otherwise I would of killed her for being a dangerous and unpredictable element posing a threat to my progress. As I would of any other character that is not following you out of their own free will, (zevran for example). All of the others actually express a genuine desire to help.

Dedicated hater, eh?  If she truly went out of her way to avoid helping, she'd leave the party.  She doesn't.  Whether it's for goals further in the game or not, she doesn't leave the party, and since her being a party member isn't a factor in the late game scenario, she'll show up anyway, this argument doesn't hold water.

Here's an interesting tid bit for you; I sent her into the Fade to rescue Connor, and got no hit on approval.  So she really didn't want to risk herself to further my goals, right?  Here's another interesting tidbit, same scenario, different play through, I sent Jowan, and Sten and Morrigan both disapproved.  Now why is that, I wonder?  Sten is obvious, but why the disapproval from Morrigan?  I didn't risk any of the Wardens, or her.  So again, just blind hate, with nothing to substantiate it is just blind hate.

[KilrB]

However you want to classify her, I think the writers did a darn good job of it.



Come on now, admit it, we all know at least one person just like her.

[robertthebard]

I think it's funny too, reading the topic title. I still believe it's more along the lines of "I don't understand the character, so it's stupid, or written poorly".

[Dark83]

Rainen89 wrote...
To be fair, they can't exactly attest to your negative character if they're all dead. Just sayin'.

That wasn't my point. It wasn't to avoid negative PR, but to gain positive PR.
"Hey, the Grey Warden saved us all!" from the hapless masses at Redcliffe disagreeing with the "Hey, did you hear the Grey Wardens killed our king and betrayed our nation?" that's currently the opinion of the Ferelden peons.  As opposed to just Loghain's properganda.

[specter7237]

Give her a good slap when you get back to the tent.  That will keep her in line.

[Exile Isan]

specter7237 wrote...

Give her a good slap when you get back to the tent.  That will keep her in line.

And find yourself drained of all your life energy? Brilliant plan.

[Asylumer]

Morrigan's isolated upbringing explains her retarded understanding of society rather well, and I could see how her character came to the conclusions she did, but that didn't stop me from facepalming at her usage of "survival of the fittest" during the merchant encounter. Did she ever consider why wolves travel in packs?



She isn't nearly as intelligent as she makes herself out to be... though that can be blamed on the Flemeth brain-washing and idolization. Maybe with more time away from Flemeth she'd come to realize the witch's teachings had more to do with her own bitterness than wisdom.

[specter7237]

Exile Isan wrote...

specter7237 wrote...

Give her a good slap when you get back to the tent.  That will keep her in line.

And find yourself drained of all your life energy? Brilliant plan.

Before I find my dirk in her throat or after?  Lets just say Morrigan is a woman who needs 'supervision'.

[Dark83]

Asylumer wrote...
Did she ever consider why wolves travel in packs?

Nah, she knows about spiders (a minority of species are social) and bears (overwhelmingly solitary and considered to be the most asocial of all the Carnivora), but she's clueless about wolves. She can't transform into them after all.

Modifié par Dark83, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[schminck]

I don't know if this was a bug in my game or what but... well...



Right after Lothering, in my camp, during my first playthrough... I chatted up Morrigan quite a lot. I got to know her as much as possible right away, and my character slept with her, that first night... in camp. Yes.



After that, I found she rarely disagreed hard with ANYTHING I did. Oh sure once in a great while I got a "Morrigan disapproves" but it was easy to fix with a gift. Hell, I had to keep a buttload of Morrigan gifts in my inventory just because I never needed to use them and she was at max all the time!



So I'm unsure what everyone's problem is... especially because my first playthrough I very much went down a "good" path.



I think this game is great. If you work on your party and get to know them and act like you care... they are willing to accept much more in what you do than if you just treat them as pets.

[Basher of Glory]

Asylumer wrote...

Morrigan's isolated upbringing explains her retarded understanding of society rather well, and I could see how her character came to the conclusions she did, but that didn't stop me from facepalming at her usage of "survival of the fittest" during the merchant encounter. Did she ever consider why wolves travel in packs?

She isn't nearly as intelligent as she makes herself out to be... though that can be blamed on the Flemeth brain-washing and idolization. Maybe with more time away from Flemeth she'd come to realize the witch's teachings had more to do with her own bitterness than wisdom.

IMO you are on the correct path.
She lacks of so called "social intelligence", a result of being isolated from other people AND / OR brainwashed / influenced by someone like Flemeth seems to be.
Someone who lacks "social intelligence" is not necessarily "stupid" or "dumb". As a matter of fact, most of the mass murderers in history were "intelligent" but also "social darwinists".

[Rainen89]

^ Indeed, not understanding social conventions doesn't make someone dumb, in fact it happens to anyone exposed to a culture they don't understand. I guarantee if you go to a different country you will not have a firm grasp of the typical social conventions that are expected of you. That being said it's not as though nature is w/o politics of their own. Primates being the prime example, however social isolation is still quite infamous for destroying someones ability to understand normal human behaviors. Like forced Aspergers.

Morrigan and Sten are the most objectionable but are also the "easiest" to get high approval with. Morrigan is by far the easiest romance. However, this isn't even the original point. The point is that she is not evil for suggesting to leave Redcliffe, she's certainly not some self righteous paladin mind you, but she's hardly "evil".

[druidofwarp]

I love Morrigan but at Redcliffe she makes a huge strategic miscalculation(again) Sten does too, but i have the option to explain it to him. Can't with Morrigan which is stupid because I should be able to give a general overview of my plan to her, because honestly her suggestion is worse than the alternatives from a strategic and moral point.

[blaidfiste]

I like the way these characters were written. They agree/disagree with my decisions and offer advice along the way. Only the Mabari was supposed to follow me around and not care what I do. The bottom line is that I'm in charge and with good reason! Morrigan would not be able to accomplish much as a "witch of the wilds" if she were not traveling with a Grey Warden. She just doesn't "get it." I believe her initial plan after we left the wilds was to attack Loghain directly. Sten failed at his mission. Were he able to keep his composure, he may have been able to get the villagers (who found him) to point him to lake Callenhad so that he can search for his sword. Do you think I care if these two idiots don't agree with some of my decisions? Neither of whom had any objections to me taking time away from the Blight to help them with their personal quests.

[Drunkencelt]

Kozuka78 wrote...

The main character is a grey warden, and 'his' argument for turning his back on the village and not riskng himself is that he is too important to lose. Which is a valid argument.

Morrigan however holds no such position of validated self importance. She has the power to act and would choose not to because she would rather 'hundreds' (assuming we are talking about a realisitc population number for redcliffe and not just the represented characters) of people to die. Perhaps not evil but selfish, cowardly and immoral, certainly.

There is only an excuse for the grey warden not to act, there is no such convieniant way out for morrigan. she would simply let hundreds die rather than risk herself.

This has to be one of the dumbest things I can remember. Most of her references for not helping people, is there are more important things to deal with like....oh I don't know... the blight and an Arch demon.

You are just drawing conclusions from biased opinions with no facts what so ever.

[FireDragon076]

I was referring to Morrigan as "Captain Useless" for the longest time, then I relized that she feels the role as "Human Condom", so the nickname changed

[Basher of Glory]

FireDragon076 wrote...

I was referring to Morrigan as "Captain Useless" for the longest time, then I relized that she feels the role as "Human Condom", so the nickname changed

I humbly beg your pardon, but this I don't understand (no sarcasm!). Please do me a favour and explain in specific, what exactly you wanted to tell us, would you?

[Rainen89]

Maybe it means instead of being useless, the poster realized that Morrigan is made for your pleasure?...I got nothin'.

[Sidney]

druidofwarp wrote...

I love Morrigan but at Redcliffe she makes a huge strategic miscalculation(again) Sten does too, but i have the option to explain it to him. Can't with Morrigan which is stupid because I should be able to give a general overview of my plan to her, because honestly her suggestion is worse than the alternatives from a strategic and moral point.

It is a simple risk/reward. Saving the weak doesn't advance your cause and it risks the death of the Warden(s) which would result in a total mission failure.

The counter argument that you can't make is that you might not be able to englist the arl's aid if you let his village burn.

Her stand isn't well thought out and is narrow in vision but then again she's not exactly the most world and sophisticted girl on the planet now is she?

[Doc Faust]

It should be noted that Morrigan's lack of foresight and inability to see when altruistic action could be made to help her is well documented in the mechanics of the game...



... after all, she only has 12 cunning. ~.^

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rainen89 wrote...

Except you know that eamon (or will if you ask around lothering.) is dying and in trouble your main priority and time spent is for treaties and saving him. Yes it's selfish and yes it would've sounded better if you did save the village. However, your priority is Eamon, who you now know is in a coma and needs immediate supernatural help. Granted this argument would go much better if you weren't "wasting a day" to ditch the village and instead could go in earlier, but yeah. The point is that Eamon will be in your debt regardless for saving him from death, saving his village/people and family will make him happier yes, much happier but he will still be in your debt by saving him. It's true you don't know how he'll react but you also don't know that the village can't defend themselves.

At that point you have no idea if Eamon even lives. Saving his sucessor (and getting in his good graces) is a very smart thing to do.
By saving the village you also get an aditional army. It's not in the treaties, but i's an army none the less. You also help improve the Grey Warden reputation - and apperances matter in the long run.

This is a funny arguement, since Loghain says that the Warden was the only one that could influence the Landsmeet against him.  You need Eamon to call it, but he's far from influential once the ball is rolling. 

You don't need Eamon? Quite the contrary, you do. It's so easy to think the player could do anything, but wihout Eamon backing you up, how many nobles would turn towards you?