885 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

B.t.w - Morrigan is evil. It's clear as daylight. I mean ,how do you tel lsomeoen is evil in the real world? I'm not talking stupid cartoony evil?
Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others? Lack of empathy? Willingness to use and sacrifice others?
Morrigna pretty much has all of those traits.
But she loves the PC so she can't be evil, right? Because we all know evil people never love anyone:whistle:

[Rainen89]

You know he's alive you don't know what the status is but it's heavily implied he's still alive if you talk to the knights in ferelden though it is noted that he is dreadfully sick. Yes I'm not disputing that saving the village is without it's own reward but that's not the point. The point isn't that there's no benefit at all, quite the contrary. The point is that you have no idea at all what is going to go attack this village and while it may seem like the right thing to do it is in some way very irresponsible risking the lives of the only two grey wardens (that you know of.) Left in ferelden. Yes, this village dies without you, but without you (being dead anyway.) countless others fall and Ferelden is swarmed.

To reitterate, the point isn't that you don't benefit from helping, the point is that saving villages is not your primary concern, your concern is facing and stopping the blight.

I don't think Morrigan is evil, I think she's chaotic and she uses whatever she can to benefit herself, she's very darwinian, she does not take pleasure in killing she doesn't take pleasure in harming others, at best she's a sadist when it comes to lust, but that's it. Evil doesn't mean doing what's best for you, evil means hurting/harming others simply because you enjoy it, which she does not. The only evil scenario I can see is the Dalish slaughtering suggestion.

Modifié par Rainen89, 21 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[DariusKalera]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

B.t.w - Morrigan is evil. It's clear as daylight. I mean ,how do you tel lsomeoen is evil in the real world? I'm not talking stupid cartoony evil?
Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others? Lack of empathy? Willingness to use and sacrifice others?
Morrigna pretty much has all of those traits.
But she loves the PC so she can't be evil, right? Because we all know evil people never love anyone:whistle:

You know, some of those can be used to describe "good" people as well in the real world.

It actually boils down to exactly what a person does that determines whether or not those qualities are good or evil.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ys, some of those can be used to decribe people in the real world. On occasions.



If your default behavior is like that - and note, that's a list, not a single character flaw - then you certanly can't be categorized as a good person.



Grred, lust for power, lack of empathy, etc.. - those are not "qualities" that change depending on what you "do" with them.



You're confusing chaotic stupid with evil. Morrigan may be a b***, but she's not a moron.

[Skellimancer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You're confusing chaotic stupid with evil. Morrigan may be a b***, but she's not a moron.

Yes she is.

Never seen such a chaotic stupid character in my life, the only being more chaotic stupid; are the darkspawn.

[th3warr1or]

Morrigan is actually quite intelligent... she made use of everyone.

[Skellimancer]

th3warr1or wrote...

Morrigan is actually quite intelligent... she made use of everyone.

She is transparent. Only a total idiot would fall for her lies.

[robertthebard]

Skellimancer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You're confusing chaotic stupid with evil. Morrigan may be a b***, but she's not a moron.

Yes she is.

Never seen such a chaotic stupid character in my life, the only being more chaotic stupid; are the darkspawn.

Alistair.

[Skellimancer]

robertthebard wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You're confusing chaotic stupid with evil. Morrigan may be a b***, but she's not a moron.

Yes she is.

Never seen such a chaotic stupid character in my life, the only being more chaotic stupid; are the darkspawn.

Alistair.

"point taken".

[Jehu Blenheim]

th3warr1or wrote...

Morrigan is actually quite intelligent... she made use of everyone.

She... has issues alright.... 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Skellimancer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


You're confusing chaotic stupid with evil. Morrigan may be a b***, but she's not a moron.

Yes she is.

Never seen such a chaotic stupid character in my life, the only being more chaotic stupid; are the darkspawn.

What I mean by that is that she will nto force the issue when you are the designated leader. Another poster said "who care what she thinks, she didnt' actually do anything".
This was a reply to that. She's not stupid enough to go sacrificing kiddies and elven slaves if she thinks she can't get away with that or will find herself against you.

The Anvil? She wants it. the mages? She wants them dead. The slaves? She wants to use them. But she doesn't if hte palyer shuts her down - she won't go agaisnt him, since she needs him for the Ritual.

[fantasypisces]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

B.t.w - Morrigan is evil. It's clear as daylight. I mean ,how do you tel lsomeoen is evil in the real world? I'm not talking stupid cartoony evil?
Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others? Lack of empathy? Willingness to use and sacrifice others?
Morrigna pretty much has all of those traits.
But she loves the PC so she can't be evil, right? Because we all know evil people never love anyone:whistle:

And I agree with another poster, those traits do not make someone evil, selfish yes, but not evil. She is neutral, look up old DnD alignments for true and chaotic neutral and you will see they fit Morrigan (especially chaotic neutral).

[Skellimancer]

Redcliff
Me: Whats that tea-gaaaaan? your knights could be killed defending the village and precious resources lost? ok i will help.
Morrigan:hurr durr i no like! let them all die, lol.
---
Me: yeah yeah whatever, Smithy guy! i will find your daughter, blah-blah. Now fix the soldiers armor!
Morrigan: hurr durr i no like! screw him, his daughter and the soldiers.
---
Much later in the game and -60 approval later

Morrigan:Hey<charname> i got a ritual that can save joo! just get me preggers!
Me: go &*^&% yourself, Morrigan.

[menasure]

Skellimancer wrote...

th3warr1or wrote...

Morrigan is actually quite intelligent... she made use of everyone.

She is transparent. Only a total idiot would fall for her lies.

i do not really believe her about everything but i also have seen no proof that she lies. she hides things just like every npc does and like every human does, some of these things might matter, some of them might not... it's not really that she's not meant to be portrayed as evil or ambiguous ... it's that you are meant to be biased towards her for such writing techniques to work.

however as long as she helps i am not going to complain about social skills ... call her evil when she helps to save Ferelden just because you do not really get along with her. ok so apparently she flees if you do not indulge her with the dark ritual (or was that flemeth, the woman who saved you in the first place?). she already helped you on the way anyway, which is more than you can say about most other people which were not born as outlaws like her. since she's an outlaw from the start she should not really have felt obliged to follow you ... i'm sure she has her reasons alright whether the whole flemeth story is true or not and i can't be sure if they're the right or wrong reasons. she's not exactly the material to go shopping for the latest fashion with but luckily you do not have to do that in game. you can ignore her the whole time and just use her whenever you need to (aren't we evilish ourselves? lol)

however i also see no proof about her being choatic evil. i do not see her kill puppies because she likes it for example though she might applaud you when you put a living being out of his misery. yet it's not like she enjoys killing because she asks you to release sten from his cage so he can escape the fate of falling in the hands of darkspawn ... ok so sten lost it and killed that family without a rational reason yet he waited for days to let himself be captured ... something which a real animalistic monster would not do.
morrigan might have a distaste for humans in general but she's hardly to blame for that when she grew up practically alone and being hunted by her own human kind. simply concluding that a lack of empathy makes someone evil like some do says really more about someone's own moral standard because it's like saying that every autist is evil.

ok such reasoning is probably meant about evil sociopaths in a social world context nevertheless i'm sorry to say that sociopaths sometimes turn out to be heros in wars ... they have the least feelings of all and that suits circumstances where you better not think twice about what might happen to you if you do the job you're supposed to do. maybe her crime is that she turns out to be selfish ... well it's not like you did not know that from the start.

Modifié par menasure, 21 décembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[fantasypisces]

Skellimancer wrote...

Redcliff
Me: Whats that tea-gaaaaan? your knights could be killed defending the village and precious resources lost? ok i will help.
Morrigan:hurr durr i no like! let them all die, lol.
---
Me: yeah yeah whatever, Smithy guy! i will find your daughter, blah-blah. Now fix the soldiers armor!
Morrigan: hurr durr i no like! screw him, his daughter and the soldiers.
---
Much later in the game and -60 approval later

Morrigan:Hey i got a ritual that can save joo! just get me preggers!
Me: go &*^&% yourself, Morrigan.

She ****es and moans because she sees it as a waste of time. She tells you her strategy right from the get-go, go straight to Denerim and kill Loghain. Do you hate Sten with a fiery passion as well? Because he is pretty much the same way, he sees it as a waste of time.

[Skellimancer]

fantasypisces wrote...


She ****es and moans because she sees it as a waste of time. She tells you her strategy right from the get-go, go straight to Denerim and kill Loghain. Do you hate Sten with a fiery passion as well? Because he is pretty much the same way, he sees it as a waste of time.

Actually, Sten is more open minded, i got +2 approval from him when i agreed to defend redcliff and a lot more when i ordered people to join the battle.

[menasure]

Skellimancer wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...


She ****es and moans because she sees it as a waste of time. She tells you her strategy right from the get-go, go straight to Denerim and kill Loghain. Do you hate Sten with a fiery passion as well? Because he is pretty much the same way, he sees it as a waste of time.

Actually, Sten is more open minded, i got +2 approval from him when i agreed to defend redcliff and a lot more when i ordered people to join the battle.

curious i got negative approval from him for helping the villagers in redcliffe ... maybe it's just how the mechanic works then, programmed to be at a certain level of appreciation for your character if you make a particular decision. though there's a whole chain of adjustments going on throughout the whole redcliffe situation. characters which do not approve at first might turn around later on when you make further decisions.

[Skellimancer]

menasure wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...


She ****es and moans because she sees it as a waste of time. She tells you her strategy right from the get-go, go straight to Denerim and kill Loghain. Do you hate Sten with a fiery passion as well? Because he is pretty much the same way, he sees it as a waste of time.

Actually, Sten is more open minded, i got +2 approval from him when i agreed to defend redcliff and a lot more when i ordered people to join the battle.

curious i got negative approval from him for helping the villagers in redcliffe ... maybe it's just how the mechanic works then, programmed to be at a certain level of appreciation for your character if you make a particular decision. though there's a whole chain of adjustments going on throughout the whole redcliffe situation. characters which do not approve at first might turn around later on when you make further decisions.

You need to persuade him.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 21 décembre 2009 - 03:42 .

[termokanden]

As far as I can tell, Morrigan is really an attempt at a character that is (ideologically at least) a satanist. There are, however, some situations that would suggest differently. For example, she was annoyed that I told Brother Genitivi that people should be allowed to see the Urn. I don't remember exactly what she said there, but it seemed completely out of character. Why should she care if she's not worried about the Maker anyway?



Calling Morrigan evil is too easy. She's really just selfish, but also somewhat interested in having other people follow her philosophy. That's where I think it's somewhat similar to satanism, although it is of course not completely the same thing.



Anyway, what I'm trying to say is. She's preachy about being selfish. Yes that can be quite annoying

[Subject696]

1. morrigan is not an idiot if there is some thing in the castel that is trying to kill why even bother getting in thay would have killed every thing in side for all you would know second of the village is small and even with lets say 10 to 15 extra people it would not metter mutch its kinda a lost cose to help them that is what I would say if I was in the game



2. stan only thinks about killing the darkspawn and ending the blight its not like helping a village that would be destriod anyways would help stoping the blight



3. ailister is the only idiot in the game every one knows that



4. morrigan is not evil if she was she would work for the darkspawn and as she is helping you in the game I would say she is not evil but just a bit of a ego person



5 what would you do if it was not a game but real I for sure would give them the finger and walk away and go to the ather nations asking for help more nations would mean more men power so hwat that you loos a bit of the land as long as you end it

[Subject696]

hey selfish people can be good people to as long as you are on there good side and you would be handy for I'm pritty selfish myself and I help people out some times if it would mean getting some thing for it

[Dark83]

Sten actually listens if you explain it, and then he approves of it when you force the fat innkeeper to fight too.

How is "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" in any way "good"?
"Good" and "Evil" is almost the same axis as "Altrustic" and "Selfish".

Modifié par Dark83, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[mousestalker]

termokanden wrote...

As far as I can tell, Morrigan is really an attempt at a character that is (ideologically at least) a satanist. There are, however, some situations that would suggest differently. For example, she was annoyed that I told Brother Genitivi that people should be allowed to see the Urn. I don't remember exactly what she said there, but it seemed completely out of character. Why should she care if she's not worried about the Maker anyway?

Calling Morrigan evil is too easy. She's really just selfish, but also somewhat interested in having other people follow her philosophy. That's where I think it's somewhat similar to satanism, although it is of course not completely the same thing.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is. She's preachy about being selfish. Yes that can be quite annoying

So what you're saying is she is an Objectivist (follower of Ayn Rand)?

That actually makes a fair amount of sense. If so, then a dwarven Hank Rearden would sweep her off of her feet with no trouble.

[Creature 1]

Subject696 wrote...
4. morrigan is not evil if she was she would work for the darkspawn and as she is helping you in the game I would say she is not evil but just a bit of a ego person 

Does not follow.  Morrigan was disturbed by the thought of being made into a golem, she definitely wouldn't want to be made into a Broodmother.  The world does not always work such that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Sometimes you have multiple enemies. 

I don't think Morrigan is outright evil, but definitely unscrupulous, so extremely dangerous. 

[Dark83]

Subject696 wrote...

4. morrigan is not evil if she was she would work for the darkspawn and as she is helping you in the game I would say she is not evil but just a bit of a ego person

This makes zero sense. It's not evil to work with the darkspawn, it's suicidal stupidity.<_<