885 réponses à ce sujet

[fantasypisces]

Dark83 wrote...

Sten actually listens if you explain it, and then he approves of it when you force the fat innkeeper to fight too.

How is "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" in any way "good"?
"Good" and "Evil" is almost the same axis as "Altrustic" and "Selfish".

Because unless you are a follower of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for power are not altogether evil. Disregard for others, hell I will admit, I sometimes have disregard for others whom I don't know. Does that make me a bad person, perhaps. But when I watch the news I don't get torn up about every death reported. Keep in mind that Dragon Age is a midieval fantasy setting, their values are different then ours today.

One thing I have learned being an archaeologist, is that for the most part,  (in the past) most people didn't give a damn about strangers, they were out for their own survival, that doesn't mean every nation/culture's past is evil, it was just the belief.

[Creature 1]

fantasypisces wrote...
One thing I have learned being an archaeologist, is that for the most part,  (in the past) most people didn't give a damn about strangers, they were out for their own survival, that doesn't mean every nation/culture's past is evil, it was just the belief.

Are you familiar with parochial altruism?  Maybe that attitude is not necessarily evil, but it's not good (though frequently useful). 

People haven't changed, IMO.  The modern civilized approach is to expand the bounds of the ingroup to encompass all humanity, but there will always be groups dividing the world into "us" and "them". 

[Dark83]

fantasypisces wrote...

Because unless you are a follower
of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for
power are not altogether evil.

So are you saying "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" is "not evil", or are you saying it's "good"? I was addressing someone who said that the criteria doesn't mean evil, and in fact good.

Modifié par Dark83, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:54 .

[Asylumer]

mousestalker wrote...

So what you're saying is she is an Objectivist (follower of Ayn Rand)?

That actually makes a fair amount of sense. If so, then a dwarven Hank Rearden would sweep her off of her feet with no trouble.

Most of the arguments made against her refer to enlightened self-interest, so no, she's the opposite. She's a selfish person who isn't looking past short term gain or for benefits which aren't obvious to her.

Modifié par Asylumer, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:54 .

[Subject696]

Dark83 wrote...

Subject696 wrote...

4. morrigan is not evil if she was she would work for the darkspawn and as she is helping you in the game I would say she is not evil but just a bit of a ego person

This makes zero sense. It's not evil to work with the darkspawn, it's suicidal stupidity.<_<

well you might never know for there was a grey warden that workt for the darkspawn so why not

[Dark83]

Asylumer wrote...
Most of the arguments made against her refer to enlightened self-interest, so no, she's the opposite. She's a selfish person who isn't looking past short term gain or for benefits which aren't obvious to her.

That wouldn't be such an issue if she wasn't supposed to be oh so clever.
By which I mean that the writers, in order to make her always have the last word and supposedly seem intelligent, gimps our possible replies so we can't call her out on her short-sightedness or lack of understanding. This is the standard failure in writing for all "strong" and "intelligent" characters - to make them seem superior, it's easiest to make the player unable to be clever. Heck, Wynne actually has some of Darth Traya's lines about the consequences of our actions, but Morrigan is all about immediate actions and reactions. Bah.

[Skellimancer]

Dark83 wrote...

Asylumer wrote...
Most of the arguments made against her refer to enlightened self-interest, so no, she's the opposite. She's a selfish person who isn't looking past short term gain or for benefits which aren't obvious to her.

That wouldn't be such an issue if she wasn't supposed to be oh so clever.
By which I mean that the writers, in order to make her always have the last word and supposedly seem intelligent, gimps our possible replies so we can't call her out on her short-sightedness or lack of understanding. This is the standard failure in writing for all "strong" and "intelligent" characters - to make them seem superior, it's easiest to make the player unable to be clever. Heck, Wynne actually has some of Darth Traya's lines about the consequences of our actions, but Morrigan is all about immediate actions and reactions. Bah.

Thats why modders made a "slap Morrigan" mod.

[Dark83]

Subject696 wrote...

Dark83 wrote...
It's not evil to work with the darkspawn, it's suicidal stupidity.<_<

well you might never know for there was a grey warden that workt for the darkspawn so why not

I have no idea what you just said.
The darkspawn seek to kill and/or eat everything, and turn women into blobs that spawn more darkspawn. In otherwords, if you "join" them, you're literally either dying or suffering a fate worse than death. Thus it is suicidally stupid. (You're ****ed.)

Modifié par Dark83, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:04 .

[Subject696]

Dark83 wrote...

Subject696 wrote...

Dark83 wrote...
It's not evil to work with the darkspawn, it's suicidal stupidity.<_<

well you might never know for there was a grey warden that workt for the darkspawn so why not

I have no idea what you just said.
The darkspawn seek to kill and/or eat everything, and turn women into blobs that spawn more darkspawn. In otherwords, if you "join" them, you're literally either dying or suffering a fate worse than death. Thus it is suicidally stupid. (You're ****ed.)

well its in the new DG book you should read it

[fantasypisces]

Dark83 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Because unless you are a follower
of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for
power are not altogether evil.

So are you saying "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" is "not evil", or are you saying it's "good"? I was addressing someone who said that the criteria doesn't mean evil, and in fact good.

It isn't good or evil, it is neutrality at it's finest.

[Subject696]

fantasypisces wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Because unless you are a follower
of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for
power are not altogether evil.

So are you saying "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" is "not evil", or are you saying it's "good"? I was addressing someone who said that the criteria doesn't mean evil, and in fact good.

It isn't good or evil, it is neutrality at it's finest.

is there even a evil or good for you see thing I vind evil ather people vind good

[Ravauviel]

fantasypisces wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Because unless you are a follower
of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for
power are not altogether evil.

So are you saying "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" is "not evil", or are you saying it's "good"? I was addressing someone who said that the criteria doesn't mean evil, and in fact good.

It isn't good or evil, it is neutrality at it's finest.

Errr...I think you mean "apathy" not neutrality.

[DariusKalera]

Dark83 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

Because unless you are a follower
of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for
power are not altogether evil.

So are you saying "Greed? Lust for power? Diregard for others?" is "not evil", or are you saying it's "good"? I was addressing someone who said that the criteria doesn't mean evil, and in fact good.

If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

[Creature 1]

Subject696 wrote...
is there even a evil or good for you see thing I vind evil ather people vind good

Yes, yes there is.  It's silly to say it's not so. 

[Dark83]

DariusKalera wrote...
If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

Could you provide examples of some "good people in the real world" who are greedy, lust for power, and disregard others?

[Subject696]

Creature 1 wrote...

Subject696 wrote...
is there even a evil or good for you see thing I vind evil ather people vind good

Yes, yes there is.  It's silly to say it's not so. 

well I must disagree like the religens I find that pure evil mostly for thay dont like me and I dont like them I call them evil and the people that are in a religan call me evil so that startid to let me think why? have good or evil its mostly some thing very personal and as not every one would agree its not some you can treuly say that is evil

[Blayzereborn]

This is the standard failure in writing for all "strong" and "intelligent" characters - to make them seem superior, it's easiest to make the player unable to be clever.

I remember a similar situation with Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic 2. The only way to gain Influence with her is to blindly agree with her not to blindly agree with anyone else on anything, and when your party manages to escape Peragus, what happens? There's a conversation in the cockpit, she throws her toys out the pram and storms off.



The player is physically incapable of selecting a response that doesn't cause her to call us stupid. Talk about railroading character 'superiority'.



Simply replace Kreia with Morrigan and Atton with Alistair (And T3-M4 with Dog). Bingo!

[fantasypisces]

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...
If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

Could you provide examples of some "good people in the real world" who are greedy, lust for power, and disregard others?

Actors
But also laywers, company officials, salesman, etc.

And yes I do feel there is good and evil.
Morrigan only likes the idea of killing the slaves to increase her power.
She does not want to kill the slaves simply because they are elves or any othe reason, that would be evil.
She does not want to blindly save the slaves (and the slaver) without any form of reward, to do otherwise would be good.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[Subject696]

fantasypisces wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...
If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

Could you provide examples of some "good people in the real world" who are greedy, lust for power, and disregard others?

Actors
But also laywers, company officials, salesman, etc.

And yes I do feel there is good and evil.
Morrigan only likes the idea of killing the slaves to increase her power.
She does not want to kill the slaves simply because they are elves or any othe reason, that would be evil.
She does not want to blindly save the slaves (and the slaver) without any form of reward, to do otherwise would be good.

lol

[robertthebard]

fantasypisces wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...
If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

Could you provide examples of some "good people in the real world" who are greedy, lust for power, and disregard others?

Actors
But also laywers, company officials, salesman, etc.

And yes I do feel there is good and evil.
Morrigan only likes the idea of killing the slaves to increase her power.
She does not want to kill the slaves simply because they are elves or any othe reason, that would be evil.
She does not want to blindly save the slaves (and the slaver) without any form of reward, to do otherwise would be good.

Nice list, I concur.  Morrigan won't even get a power boost from killing the slaves.  So a selfish motivation doesn't seem to work very well here, does it.

[Curlain]

Blayzereborn wrote...

This is the standard failure in writing for all "strong" and "intelligent" characters - to make them seem superior, it's easiest to make the player unable to be clever.

I remember a similar situation with Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic 2. The only way to gain Influence with her is to blindly agree with her not to blindly agree with anyone else on anything, and when your party manages to escape Peragus, what happens? There's a conversation in the cockpit, she throws her toys out the pram and storms off.

The player is physically incapable of selecting a response that doesn't cause her to call us stupid. Talk about railroading character 'superiority'.

Simply replace Kreia with Morrigan and Atton with Alistair (And T3-M4 with Dog). Bingo!

Well at least with Kreia she's generally smart with her views and could see the advantage to helping people (seeing it as a way of binding them to your influence), and you lost influence generally when doing Chaotic Stupid actions, also if you had a good enough wisdom (or intelligence) you often extra conversation options that allowed you to debate intelligently with her (and thereby gain influence).

I found her responses more intelligent and understanding to the situations then Morrigan's responses are sometimes

Modifié par Curlain, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:57 .

[Dark83]

Kreia actually likes it when you think for yourself and debate with her, I recall. I was light-side all the way and still got high influence by arguing and justifying myself.

[blazin130791]

only read the OP, morrigan is written well if her points of view can create a thread this long.she misunderstood your intentions and dissaproved? well im sure in rl people get things wrong or dont understand what you mean, are they badly written to?

[Creature 1]

fantasypisces wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...
If you are referring to me, I never said those criteria were "good" or "evil", just that they could be used to describe some good people in the real world.

And, as I said before, it is what a person does that determines if those qualities are good or evil.

Could you provide examples of some "good people in the real world" who are greedy, lust for power, and disregard others?

Actors
But also laywers, company officials, salesman, etc.

And yes I do feel there is good and evil.
Morrigan only likes the idea of killing the slaves to increase her power.
She does not want to kill the slaves simply because they are elves or any othe reason, that would be evil.
She does not want to blindly save the slaves (and the slaver) without any form of reward, to do otherwise would be good.

What??  Where are the politicians?  They should be top of the list. 

[mrao]

It would have been nice if you could actually argue with your companions rather than just agree or disagree with them. Morrigan expresses a willingness to learn about the world if you ask her at Flemeth's hut, but the player is given almost no opportunities to actually explain anything. I'm pretty sure most people would be able to think of something more interesting to say other than "Great idea" and "Shut up, ****!". I do not think she is poorly written, rather that the PC's options to interact with her (and other companions) is a bit limited.

Modifié par mrao, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:10 .