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Morrigan: Chaotic Stupid? Bad Writing?


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#51
Vilegrim

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The Angry One wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Strategically it's understandable, it's just not wise in any way as far as being able to deal with other human beings, which is consistent with Flemeth raising her to be that way and being unable to help her acclimate to society.  For all her talk about being so intelligent, she really is just entirely selfish and inflexible.


Flemeth taught her all she knew, but never taught her how to be two-faced and use people's gratitude for her own interests?
Really? Flemeth? Of all people?


yes, remember Flemeth wants a new host, not a rival, Morrigan was raised to be that host.

#52
tmp7704

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Recidiva wrote...

I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering, offer to save the Blacksmith's daughter or lots of other game choices that are really intended not to just "save someone" but in general...save and preserve human life.  AND show that you're capable of trust, mercy and having someone else's interests other than your own always in mind.

You know, thinking of it more she might be getting upset about it simply because it's something that was never offered to her in her life. It pisses her off to see others being helped just like that by a total stranger, while all she ever experienced was hate, beating and people trying to kill her since she was a child.

Yes it would be petty, but it would be very human reaction. And with her background she doesn't really have any reason to act otherwise. Because she was never taught about the importance of trust, mercy etc (opposite if anything) and she never experienced it herself.

#53
The Angry One

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


If you actually listen to the dialog then you'd know any attempts to enter the castle were repelled.
And the mere fact that the creatures come from the castle logically means they occupy it, or do you somehow imagine a scenario where the castle is still under human control and the creatures just happen to spawn at it's gates and leave?
Maybe they're flown in by flying elephants while we're at it.

#54
The Angry One

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Vilegrim wrote...

yes, remember Flemeth wants a new host, not a rival, Morrigan was raised to be that host.


By that logic why teach her anything at all?

#55
tmp7704

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The Angry One wrote...

By that logic why teach her anything at all?

It is said it's easier for Flemeth to settle in her host if that host has been developed to become reasonably powerful. The more the better, in fact.

#56
The Angry One

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tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

By that logic why teach her anything at all?

It is said it's easier for Flemeth to settle in her host if that host has been developed to become reasonably powerful. The more the better, in fact.


Precisely, hence she would teach Morrigan her manner of thinking, which includes how to use people. Especially weak people, to her own benefit.

#57
Recidiva

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You know, thinking of it more she might be getting upset about it simply because it's something that was never offered to her in her life. It pisses her off to see others being helped just like that by a total stranger, while all she ever experienced was hate, beating and people trying to kill her since she was a child.

Yes it would be petty, but it would be very human reaction. And with her background she doesn't really have any reason to act otherwise. Because she was never taught about the importance of trust, mercy etc (opposite if anything) and she never experienced it herself.


Yes, I think it's absolutely consistent with her character.  It's just not smart or strategic, that's all.  She's just a resentful wench basically spending most of the game complaining that she broke a nail trying to defend against the darkspawn, while saying that complaint is useless.  She's interesting, she's not someone that would win a game of Risk or Monopoly, much less a strategic political, social and warfare campaign on her own.  You can't sleep with everyone, honey, and the boobs don't do much for me.
I really didn't take her around much, but my favorite part was being able to threaten her to turn her into the first golem if she wanted the Anvil so much.
She does need to grow up and get over her childhood trauma, but I don't have the time.  

#58
Poubo

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.


You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.


Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


woah woah woah! stop right there with your logic...

how is that the direct route? what will you do? Scale the walls? swim across the lake? both instances you would get killed before getting in. unless you interogate teagan and slaughter the village yourself... but then why would you want to go in the castle anyway? Eamon wouldn't help you after you butchered his people and killed his brother.

infact how would you even know there was a secret entrance in the mill? how would you unlock it without the knowledge of the signet ring?

#59
The Capital Gaultier

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The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


If you actually listen to the dialog then you'd know any attempts to enter the castle were repelled.
And the mere fact that the creatures come from the castle logically means they occupy it, or do you somehow imagine a scenario where the castle is still under human control and the creatures just happen to spawn at it's gates and leave?
Maybe they're flown in by flying elephants while we're at it.

See, there's that lack of coherent argument again.  There is no one who says that the creatures have defended the castle, nor that the castle is blocked.  And no, there isn't a plausible scenario in which humans still control the castle, but there's not any scenario that definitely explains the situation as you see it.  Direct route is to go in and solve the problem.

#60
The Capital Gaultier

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Poubo wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.


You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.


Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


woah woah woah! stop right there with your logic...

how is that the direct route? what will you do? Scale the walls? swim across the lake? both instances you would get killed before getting in. unless you interogate teagan and slaughter the village yourself... but then why would you want to go in the castle anyway? Eamon wouldn't help you after you butchered his people and killed his brother.

infact how would you even know there was a secret entrance in the mill? how would you unlock it without the knowledge of the signet ring?

There was a door underneath the hay.  Assuming you had a mind for exploration, it's quite obvious that there was a way into the castle that did not require you to help anyone.

#61
The Angry One

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

See, there's that lack of coherent argument again.  There is no one who says that the creatures have defended the castle, nor that the castle is blocked.  And no, there isn't a plausible scenario in which humans still control the castle, but there's not any scenario that definitely explains the situation as you see it.  Direct route is to go in and solve the problem.


Um yes the castle is friggin blocked from them and they damn well say so. If it wasn't they wouldn't be having to wait for contact from within. It's also blatantly obvious since the gate is down.
So what's your solution? Batter down the gate? I'm sure Morrigan can provide the siege equipment we need since she's the tactical genius around here eh?

#62
Axterix

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Recidiva wrote...

I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering, offer to save the Blacksmith's daughter or lots of other game choices that are really intended not to just "save someone" but in general...save and preserve human life.  AND show that you're capable of trust, mercy and having someone else's interests other than your own always in mind.  Grey Wardens are supposed to save humanity as a whole, what's the actual harm in saving a few individual humans?  I don't agree with her viewpoint that "all these cretins would do it if they could" or falling back on "survival of the fittest" as if it were always a matter of strength.  There's power in acts of grace, and being rich enough and strong enough to do more than expected is part of building a reputation and loyalty.  The entire point of the game, really.
Being insanely petty enough to resent giving five gold to two recently orphaned kids is ridiculous.


I understand the profiteering merchant bit.  That merchant saw what was coming, cornered the market on certain things, and therefore deserves to profit from his foresight.  Not his fault others sold him the stuff.  Not his fault for charging what the market will bear.  That's sort of the point of being a merchant.  So why are you limiting his freedom to aid those too stupid to have bought the stuff themselves before now?  She's big on power, she's big on freedom.  Curtailing the merchant hits both those areas.

The Blacksmith's daughter, I can sort of see.  The blacksmith wants a promise, so it isn't just "we're heading that direction, we'll keep an eye out."  It is a promise to search.  Now you're going out of your way to help.  Same thing iwth the 5 gold.  The 5 gold could be better spent on equiping the party or the army to fight the darkspawn.  A pair of orphans are irrelevant.  Basically, both her and Sten see helping kittens down from trees as a waste of time that doesn't help accomplish the real goal: the blight.

Morrigan showing she's capable of mercy and having someone else's interest in mind?  Should be obvious what the problem there is.  I'm sure if you asked her about mercy, she'd scoff and there'd go some more approval rating.  And she'd probably have some delightful story about how someone was merciful and then got gutted for being so stupid.

And as to the entire point of the game, Morrigan's is to get one of those two wet behind the ears wardens to agree to do a blood magic ritual so she can have a god-baby to do with what she and Flemeth (originally anyway) will.

Not to say there aren't problems where her and Sten's attitude.  It is a game, we side quest for xp, items, and money, plus so the game lasts longer.  Having two characters kick you in the jimmy for doing that is rather counterproductive to enjoying the game.  And tied to that, it isn't consistantly applied.  Pretty much just inside Redcliffe, little bit in Lothering.

#63
Poubo

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Poubo wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.


You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.


Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


woah woah woah! stop right there with your logic...

how is that the direct route? what will you do? Scale the walls? swim across the lake? both instances you would get killed before getting in. unless you interogate teagan and slaughter the village yourself... but then why would you want to go in the castle anyway? Eamon wouldn't help you after you butchered his people and killed his brother.

infact how would you even know there was a secret entrance in the mill? how would you unlock it without the knowledge of the signet ring?

There was a door underneath the hay.  Assuming you had a mind for exploration, it's quite obvious that there was a way into the castle that did not require you to help anyone.


yeah, i found it pretty much straight after i went in redcliffe, and how would you open the said door without the key?

#64
The Angry One

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

There was a door underneath the hay.  Assuming you had a mind for exploration, it's quite obvious that there was a way into the castle that did not require you to help anyone.


So instead of taking some of your precious time to help Teagan, you instead advocate meandering about the village on the off chance that you might stumble on a trap door that happens to lead to a secret passage.

Okay.
The trap door is locked.
Now what?

#65
The Capital Gaultier

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Poubo wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Poubo wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Trolling doesn't earn you points, and you feel empty after doing it.  You are a more pitiful person than I took you to be the first time.


You made an illogical point, then instead of trying to explain yourself you resort to trolling, so yes. I take that as a concession. Don't like it? Tough.

You take things much too personally.

Log off and chill out.


Nope I just laugh at the idea of "they come from somewhere and they protect it, but they don't live there lol!"

You shouldn't, but I realize that you haven't looked at it logically.  What's been said to you is that a) monsters come from the castle and B) there has been no contact with anyone inside the castle for some time.  Unless you make a huge leap of faith, there is nothing to tell you that the castle is held and defended by anything.  Finding a way in and resolving the problem is the direct route.

Now log off and chill out.


woah woah woah! stop right there with your logic...

how is that the direct route? what will you do? Scale the walls? swim across the lake? both instances you would get killed before getting in. unless you interogate teagan and slaughter the village yourself... but then why would you want to go in the castle anyway? Eamon wouldn't help you after you butchered his people and killed his brother.

infact how would you even know there was a secret entrance in the mill? how would you unlock it without the knowledge of the signet ring?

There was a door underneath the hay.  Assuming you had a mind for exploration, it's quite obvious that there was a way into the castle that did not require you to help anyone.


yeah, i found it pretty much straight after i went in redcliffe, and how would you open the said door without the key?

Pick the lock or break it in.  For a well-armed party, it's child's play.

#66
The Capital Gaultier

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The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

See, there's that lack of coherent argument again.  There is no one who says that the creatures have defended the castle, nor that the castle is blocked.  And no, there isn't a plausible scenario in which humans still control the castle, but there's not any scenario that definitely explains the situation as you see it.  Direct route is to go in and solve the problem.


Um yes the castle is friggin blocked from them and they damn well say so. If it wasn't they wouldn't be having to wait for contact from within. It's also blatantly obvious since the gate is down.
So what's your solution? Batter down the gate? I'm sure Morrigan can provide the siege equipment we need since she's the tactical genius around here eh?

Go through the cellar in the windmill.  Take out Connor.  Day saved.

#67
Matthew Young CT

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I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering,

Nothing wrong with profiteering to her.

offer to save the Blacksmith's daughter

Waste of time.

or lots of other game choices that are really intended not to just "save someone" but in general...save and preserve human life.

Morrigan couldn't care less about random people.

AND show that you're capable of trust, mercy and having someone else's interests other than your own always in mind. 

She doesn't care about that stuff.

Grey Wardens are supposed to save humanity as a whole, what's the actual harm in saving a few individual humans?

It slows down her attaining what she wants, or jeopardises it.

I don't agree with her viewpoint that "all these cretins would do it if they could" or falling back on "survival of the fittest" as if it were always a matter of strength.

No requirement to agree with her.

There's power in acts of grace, and being rich enough and strong enough to do more than expected is part of building a reputation and loyalty.  The entire point of the game, really.

There's no "message" to the game.

Being insanely petty enough to resent giving five gold to two recently orphaned kids is ridiculous.

Again, jeopardises what she wants.

#68
tmp7704

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Recidiva wrote...

She does need to grow up and get over her childhood trauma, but I don't have the time.  

That's pretty silly attitude towards her though if you at the same time do have time to save random kittens from the trees, no? I mean doesn't it make even more tactical sense to help your own companion shape up than these random acts of mercy towards people you don't know at all do? Posted Image

#69
The Capital Gaultier

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The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

There was a door underneath the hay.  Assuming you had a mind for exploration, it's quite obvious that there was a way into the castle that did not require you to help anyone.


So instead of taking some of your precious time to help Teagan, you instead advocate meandering about the village on the off chance that you might stumble on a trap door that happens to lead to a secret passage.

Okay.
The trap door is locked.
Now what?

Yes, I advocate that.  Staying overnight to defend the village takes longer.

#70
The Angry One

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Pick the lock or break it in.  For a well-armed party, it's child's play.


It's a secret passage built for nobility, not a cheese cellar door.

#71
The Capital Gaultier

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The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Pick the lock or break it in.  For a well-armed party, it's child's play.


It's a secret passage built for nobility, not a cheese cellar door.

Either way, it's made of wood.

#72
Akka le Vil

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tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Her morality shouldn't preclude helping people when it's convenient.

She seems to be generally believe people who need help are too weak to be of any use, and hence not worth helping. Consider her comments in the mage tower.

Actually, she seems rather to actively kill people she doesn't like.

Morrigan is defintiely chaotic evil stupid. She goes out of her way to harm people when it's directly beneficial to help them, and seems to be unable to understand "planning" or "logic" or "being two-faced", all the while self-praising her supposed extensive knowledge of manipulating others.

She surely is completely inconsistent, hypocrital and self-contradicting, but I'm still wondering if she was written to actually BE like this (after all, many people are like that IRL) or if she was supposed to be simply "selfish with a baggage" and David dropped the ball on the writing and accidentally made her look totally stupid.

#73
Few87

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This may not be a case of bad writing just a lack of choice. There is no real way you can arrive at redcliffe and not end up either annoying morrigan or being amazingly evil. All they had to do was make some way of convincing teagan to tell you about the secret way into the castle or convince him to storm the castle now or maybe even something completly different. The way morrigan reacts does follow her personality and is understandable, this is just quite a linear part of the game. and yes i do know you can just walk away but thats not really much of a choice is it.

#74
The Angry One

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Matthew Young CT wrote...

I don't understand why she gets angry if you stop someone from profiteering,

Nothing wrong with profiteering to her.


Even when it has nothing to do with her?

Waste of time.


Getting a talented smith on side is a waste of time?

Morrigan couldn't care less about random people.


I couldn't care less about Morrigan. Alas that option is limited.

She doesn't care about that stuff.


Because she's too stupid to.

It slows down her attaining what she wants, or jeopardises it.


Except it doesn't, she's just too thick headed to see it.

No requirement to agree with her.


Or to acknowledge that her IQ is above a single digit either.

Again, jeopardises what she wants.


How? Unless what she wants is to be an obnoxious shrew.

#75
The Capital Gaultier

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Few87 wrote...

This may not be a case of bad writing just a lack of choice. There is no real way you can arrive at redcliffe and not end up either annoying morrigan or being amazingly evil. All they had to do was make some way of convincing teagan to tell you about the secret way into the castle or convince him to storm the castle now or maybe even something completly different. The way morrigan reacts does follow her personality and is understandable, this is just quite a linear part of the game. and yes i do know you can just walk away but thats not really much of a choice is it.

Yep.