885 réponses à ce sujet

[DariusKalera]

Greed: Is generally used to describe the attribute where someone wants more than they actually need. But, look around how many things to you have, or any of us have for that matter that we actually "need". Do we actually need that new T.V., or high speed computer, or video game? Answer is, no. Anytime someone acts on the "I want this." feeling, they are exercising Greed. Yes, some people can want more, and this want can push them to extremes and do "evil" things, but the base emotion is not itself evil.



Lust for Power: This is similar to Greed and its why most people think they go hand in hand. But a lust for power, in its most basic form, is the want to control your environment. The invention of fire, the wheel, or any other invention through out history is, in some way, trying to control the environment in which someone finds them self. As with Greed, there is an extreme and it is this extreme that will be labeled as "evil", but likewise, the base emotion is not evil.



Disregard for Others: As with the other two, this is exercised by pretty much everyone on every day. Any time some one decides that "me" is more important than "them" they are disregarding others. No one, not one single soul in the world, can always think about "them" at all times. "Me" will eventually come into play, especially when self survival is in order.



So, if you really want examples, step outside and pick someone at random. They will have all of the qualities that are listed and, more than likely, they will be a "good" person. As I said though, there are extremes in all of these behaviors that would be defined as evil.

[Dark83]

On a more serious note, unless someone demonstrates greed, a lust for power, and disregard for others, we don't know they have such quality traits. It becomes a value judgment. "Oh, sure he's a nice guy, but look at him being successful, he's greedy!"

Anyone who demonstrates such behavior (for example, "greed" + "disregard for others" = Enron) can hardly be called "good people".

[Dark83]

DariusKalera wrote...
Greed
Lust for Power
Disregard for Others

You're basically changing the context of the words.
There's a difference between a "disregard for others" as being apathic to the situation in Darfur, and cheating retired elderly out of their life savings.

Modifié par Dark83, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:14 .

[DariusKalera]

Dark83 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Greed: Is generally used to describe the attribute where someone wants more than they actually need. But, look around how many things to you have, or any of us have for that matter that we actually "need". Do we actually need that new T.V., or high speed computer, or video game? Answer is, no. Anytime someone acts on the "I want this." feeling, they are exercising Greed. Yes, some people can want more, and this want can push them to extremes and do "evil" things, but the base emotion is not itself evil.

Lust for Power: This is similar to Greed and its why most people think they go hand in hand. But a lust for power, in its most basic form, is the want to control your environment. The invention of fire, the wheel, or any other invention through out history is, in some way, trying to control the environment in which someone finds them self. As with Greed, there is an extreme and it is this extreme that will be labeled as "evil", but likewise, the base emotion is not evil.

Disregard for Others: As with the other two, this is exercised by pretty much everyone on every day. Any time some one decides that "me" is more important than "them" they are disregarding others. No one, not one single soul in the world, can always think about "them" at all times. "Me" will eventually come into play, especially when self survival is in order.

So, if you really want examples, step outside and pick someone at random. They will have all of the qualities that are listed and, more than likely, they will be a "good" person. As I said though, there are extremes in all of these behaviors that would be defined as evil.

You're basically changing the context of the words as they are used.
There's a difference between a "disregard for others" as being apathic to the situation in Darfur, and cheating retired elderly out of their life savings.

No, I am not.  They are just different levels of the same base emotion and acted on differently by the individual.

[Sialater]

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grew Wardens....



She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

[Creature 1]

DariusKalera wrote...
Lust for Power: This is similar to Greed and its why most people think they go hand in hand. But a lust for power, in its most basic form, is the want to control your environment. The invention of fire, the wheel, or any other invention through out history is, in some way, trying to control the environment in which someone finds them self. As with Greed, there is an extreme and it is this extreme that will be labeled as "evil", but likewise, the base emotion is not evil.

I'd disagree with this.  If you have a lust for power, you specifically want to control other people.  Again, this is something everyone possesses to some extent.  Having influence over other people is beneficial to survival.  Is it bad?  When Zevran has his line about killing people and says he likes the feeling of having the power over life and death when he stabs someone it actually reminded me of hearing similar things said about surgeons, some of whom power trip over their ability to cut a person open and reorganize their insides.  True, the circumstances are different but the emotion is the same.  So this is another trait that can be acceptable or evil, depending on the motivation. 

[Dark83]

Actually, I'm going to address each seperately.

Greed: Is generally used to describe the attribute where someone wants more than they actually need. But, look around how many things to you have, or any of us have for that matter that we actually "need". Do we actually need that new T.V., or high speed computer, or video game? Answer is, no. Anytime someone acts on the "I want this." feeling, they are exercising Greed. Yes, some people can want more, and this want can push them to extremes and do "evil" things, but the base emotion is not itself evil.

No.
Greed is excessive or rapacious desire, esp. for wealth or possessions. It is not greedy to want something, not even by a strict Seven Sins value judgement. Greed is already the extreme. The base emotion is "desire".

Lust for Power: This is similar to Greed and its why most people think they go hand in hand. But a lust for power, in its most basic form, is the want to control your environment. The invention of fire, the wheel, or any other invention through out history is, in some way, trying to control the environment in which someone finds them self. As with Greed, there is an extreme and it is this extreme that will be labeled as "evil", but likewise, the base emotion is not evil.

Again, Lust is, in and of itself, already the extreme. Lust is a passionate or overmastering desire or craving.

Disregard for Others: As with the other two, this is exercised by pretty much everyone on every day. Any time some one decides that "me" is more important than "them" they are disregarding others. No one, not one single soul in the world, can always think about "them" at all times. "Me" will eventually come into play, especially when self survival is in order.

The issue with this is magnitude. Deciding you are more important than "they" is not disregarding them - if you thought about them. Disregard is a lack of regard or attention; neglect; lack of due or respectful regard. So no - if you took the time to decide your needs/wants are more important then their needs/wants, you have already considered them at the least. Regardless, nobody expects everyone to care about everyone - the point is that "lust for power" and "greed" are driving forces, while "disregard for others" is the lack of a tempering force.

What this reeks of is "I'm X, but I'm Good because everybody else is X anyways." At the least, it's even more cynical than I am - but only because words are being misused.

Modifié par Dark83, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[Skellimancer]

Sialater wrote...

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grey Wardens....

She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

Not to mention encouraging you to attack the bandits, a few moments after heading to Lothering.

[Sialater]

Skellimancer wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grey Wardens....

She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

Not to mention encouraging you to attack the bandits, a few moments after heading to Lothering.

Yeah, I think she's just been fed a line from her ever so nurturing mother all her life that she's brilliant (thereby disencouraging her to look too far into what Flemeth actually plans) and tough and she has no idea how to interact with the rest of her species.  Basically, she's borderline sociopath.   Morrgan has been lied to all her life.  And she bought it.

[robertthebard]

Skellimancer wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grey Wardens....

She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

Not to mention encouraging you to attack the bandits, a few moments after heading to Lothering.

Self preservation comes first, and those bandits were wienies anyway.  Hell, just last night I intimidated them into letting me pass, and making a donation to the Grey Wardens, and then beat the leader down and collected all the money they took,and then killed them by telling him it's all he deserved.  So I beat him three times in like 5 minutes.  Flemeth, on the other hand, was a horse of a different color.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

By that logic why teach her anything at all?

It is said it's easier for Flemeth to settle in her host if that host has been developed to become reasonably powerful. The more the better, in fact.

Precisely, hence she would teach Morrigan her manner of thinking, which includes how to use people. Especially weak people, to her own benefit.

Actually no. Power as in magic. Being nice to people doesn't get you magic. Flemeth doesn't want a whole person. She wants a meatbag with a lot of magical juice. She plans to take over the body, remember? Why bother teaching it social graces? Morrigan will get plenty of power just being a pain in the ass and will not gain much by being a social butterfly.

Also, having friends means more people to trick or look for her when it is time to take over. So no, Flemeth would want Morrigan alone and with as little support as possible. Flemeth is powerful but why have to bother with a horde of friends and allies when she can just do her best to make Morrigan's weakness her antisocial behavior?

She wants a new body, games and life manipulation can come afterward.

[Lotion Soronarr]

fantasypisces wrote...

And I agree with another poster, those traits do not make someone evil, selfish yes, but not evil. She is neutral, look up old DnD alignments for true and chaotic neutral and you will see they fit Morrigan (especially chaotic neutral).

Disagree all you want. By your logic, there is no such thing as evil people. Selfish? that's not a evil trait. Lack of empathy? Nope, also not evil. Disregard for others lives? Nope, also not evil?

So what IS evil then? Or is everyone Chaotic Neutral according to you?

You can change the labels all you like, but it doesn't change the core of the issue. I call selfish, greedy, power-houngry, self-absorbed, uncaring and devious people evil. You call them chaotic neutral.

[Lotion Soronarr]

fantasypisces wrote...
Because unless you are a follower of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for power are not altogether evil. Disregard for others, hell I will admit, I sometimes have disregard for others whom I don't know. Does that make me a bad person, perhaps. But when I watch the news I don't get torn up about every death reported. Keep in mind that Dragon Age is a midieval fantasy setting, their values are different then ours today.

Occasional attacks of greed or disregard - I can get that.  I cna brush off people too when I'm in a bad mood (altough I dod regret it later).
But that's Morrigans default. It's not occasional. And I don't see any regret in her.

You're pulling specific aspects of her and telling that each one of them alone doesnot make a "truly" evil person. Yeah, when you have a cocktail of htem, that makes it rahter evil. And some of those "traits" have more weight than others.

You don't have to kick puppies and burn kitttens alive all the time to be a evil douchebag. Morrigan is following hte PC's lead, since she needs him for hte ritual and doesn't want to loose him, and agreed to follow his lead.
If you play the white knight, she protests against every good decision and you need to threaten her into shutting up. She's smart enough not to push the issue. So you basicly see her at her best behavior.

If you play an evil ****** she will gleefully do any evil deed in the game and agree to it. Kill children? Cool, lets do it! Turn dwarves into golems trough horrificly painfull methods? As long as it's not me, who cares' Hell yeah! POWAA!! Drain those stupid elves for more power? Yeah, lets.

Not evil? NOT EVIL? You got to be kidding me.


Allright..If you guys are so determined to follow this line of reasoning...a challenge. Pick someone you consider evil from the real world. A criminal, a mass murderer or someone like Stalin or something.

I will use your own logic to deny that persons evil.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:14 .

[menasure]

Skellimancer wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grey Wardens....

She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

Not to mention encouraging you to attack the bandits, a few moments after heading to Lothering.

well it is kind of interesting to realize what Flemeth tells morrigan: that even she can not survive the darkspawn invasion if the blight is not stopped so there might be an alternative motive playing, though a rather "stupid-vengeful" one. if there are no grey wardens anymore because Flemeth killed them then the blight can not be stopped and Flemeth will die ... with the little collateral dammage of the whole of Ferelden lol. this might also explain why flemeth is willing to bargain for her grimoire if you pick the right dialogue.

and about those bandits: maybe morrigan does know what people are made off on sight.
i always have a good laugh when i beat the leader, tell him that he should join my army after he surrenders and he prefers to die instead. go figure

Modifié par menasure, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:17 .

[Subject696]

Sialater wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I do have a problem with people saying she was objecting because you're endangering the lives of the last Grey Wardens....

She sends you to fight her MOTHER who shapeshifts into a DRAGON. Where's the concern then?

Not to mention encouraging you to attack the bandits, a few moments after heading to Lothering.

Yeah, I think she's just been fed a line from her ever so nurturing mother all her life that she's brilliant (thereby disencouraging her to look too far into what Flemeth actually plans) and tough and she has no idea how to interact with the rest of her species.  Basically, she's borderline sociopath.   Morrgan has been lied to all her life.  And she bought it.

nah what you must consider is people dont liek magic people outside the magitower thingabob and that she was told that hur howl live and she those say that the wilds where pritty lonely and as she has no feeling for mostly she never grow up around people  and has spend her live running away from templers so she would not have any feelings thay where never there to start with from ather people

[Dark83]

Subject696 wrote...

nah what you must consider is people dont liek magic people outside the magitower thingabob and that she was told that hur howl live and she those say that the wilds where pritty lonely and as she has no feeling for mostly she never grow up around people  and has spend her live running away from templers so she would not have any feelings thay where never there to start with from ather people

Holy indecipherable run-on sentance, Batman!

[Subject696]

Dark83 wrote...

Subject696 wrote...

nah what you must consider is people dont liek magic people outside the magitower thingabob and that she was told that hur howl live and she those say that the wilds where pritty lonely and as she has no feeling for mostly she never grow up around people  and has spend her live running away from templers so she would not have any feelings thay where never there to start with from ather people

Holy indecipherable run-on sentance, Batman!

might sound like a idiot but I dont get it

[fantasypisces]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...
Because unless you are a follower of the philosophy of the seven deadly sins, then greed and lust for power are not altogether evil. Disregard for others, hell I will admit, I sometimes have disregard for others whom I don't know. Does that make me a bad person, perhaps. But when I watch the news I don't get torn up about every death reported. Keep in mind that Dragon Age is a midieval fantasy setting, their values are different then ours today.

Occasional attacks of greed or disregard - I can get that.  I cna brush off people too when I'm in a bad mood (altough I dod regret it later).
But that's Morrigans default. It's not occasional. And I don't see any regret in her.

You're pulling specific aspects of her and telling that each one of them alone doesnot make a "truly" evil person. Yeah, when you have a cocktail of htem, that makes it rahter evil. And some of those "traits" have more weight than others.

You don't have to kick puppies and burn kitttens alive all the time to be a evil douchebag. Morrigan is following hte PC's lead, since she needs him for hte ritual and doesn't want to loose him, and agreed to follow his lead.
If you play the white knight, she protests against every good decision and you need to threaten her into shutting up. She's smart enough not to push the issue. So you basicly see her at her best behavior.

If you play an evil ****** she will gleefully do any evil deed in the game and agree to it. Kill children? Cool, lets do it! Turn dwarves into golems trough horrificly painfull methods? As long as it's not me, who cares' Hell yeah! POWAA!! Drain those stupid elves for more power? Yeah, lets.

Not evil? NOT EVIL? You got to be kidding me.


Allright..If you guys are so determined to follow this line of reasoning...a challenge. Pick someone you consider evil from the real world. A criminal, a mass murderer or someone like Stalin or something.

I will use your own logic to deny that persons evil.

Whoa dude, calm down and stop freaking out on me. The point is that they are not evil actions in themselves, it is the levity of the situation and the thought process that makes those characteristics evil.

Hitler killed Jews because he didn't like them --- Evil
Morrigan killed slave elves (or at least supported it) because there was a benefit to herself (whether she got the benefit or her leader did, either way it benefited her) --- neutral outlook. She didn't want to kill the slaves simply because she wanted to kill them, there was a benefit to her outside the boundaries of law (chaotic neutral)

Shale wants to kill Connor for no other reason then he simply thinks it would be easy and enjoyable --- evil
Morrigan thinks killing Connor is the best approach but also proposes going to the mage-tower to battle the daemon in the fade --- neutral.

I'm of the opinion that good and evil are hard to define, and that the world is mostly shades of Greys except for the extremes (i.e. Hitler vs a Paladin). Look at the world and you would see this is true.

I'm sorry you see everything as black and white only, which leads me to believe you are either very young, stuck in a fantasy, or very close-minded. By your defenition, all drug-dealers are bad. Are they? Well they certainly distribute something that is bad, often to kids, but often many of these proposed 'evil' drug dealers didn't have a choice. Either stay unemployed in a hostile environment and starve to death, or do something that many consider bad to survive. Do you begrudge them all and judge them because they are doing what they have to do? Yes a good number of drug dealers are bad people (most in fact) they do it for the greed not for the survival.

Counter that with Morrigan. Do you think she would be as greedy and powerhungry if she wasn't raised by Flemeth? As an apostate mage, living in the Korcari Wilds which is probably the most dangerous place in all of Ferelden? She was raised in a situation where survival meant everything, it is all she knows. She is like that one in a million drug dealer, she does what she does because she has no other choice. When the PC then remarks that she doesn't have to live that way any longer you can sense her stammer, because she does realize there is something else out there. It is the same with the one in a million drug dealer, once they have enough to survive on they begin searching for other (less illegal) things to do to get by, but that would not have been possible if they didn't take the morally grey option in the first place.

Morrigan is neutral because she is a product of her environment (need for survival) and as soon as she relizes it doesn't need to be that way, she changes.

She does not want to kill people simply because she enjoys killing people. There needs to be a reason for it.
Cold blooded murder (Hitler killing Jews) is evil. None can deny that.
Killing slaves (in a midieval fantasy setting) that mean nothing to no-one, are complete strangers to you, and you get something that benefits you is a morally grey area based upon the principles of the midieval fantasy setting. If it was present day times and she did that, then it's evil. If this was 1400's europe then no one would even bat a ****ing eyelash.

Good and Evil are not so readily distinguished. There are many factors that go into the decision including historical setting, cultural setting, the thought processes of how everyone will perceive it, and the levity of the situation.

I'm sorry your shiny plate armor and blazing sword can't understand that the world is mostly a shade of grey.

[Lord Abrasion]

Subject696 wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Subject696 wrote...

nah what you must consider is people dont liek magic people outside the magitower thingabob and that she was told that hur howl live and she those say that the wilds where pritty lonely and as she has no feeling for mostly she never grow up around people  and has spend her live running away from templers so she would not have any feelings thay where never there to start with from ather people

Holy indecipherable run-on sentance, Batman!

might sound like a idiot but I dont get it

Basically he was saying that the lack of punctuation and the way you murderized the English langauge in your post made it difficult to understand.

[Subject696]

ha sorry I have dislexia *shame*

[Dark83]

I thought dyslexia only applies to spelling (phoneticized), and shouldn't affect sentence structure and punctuation? Also, shouldn't being self-aware make you more careful in how you write?

[Lord Abrasion]

Subject696 wrote...

ha sorry I have dislexia *shame*

You shouldn't have to feel ashamed because of that. I've seen far less legible posts made by people whose only excuse was pure laziness. But we're going off topic here, aren't we...

[fantasypisces]

fantasypisces wrote...


I'm sorry your shiny plate armor and blazing sword can't understand that the world is mostly a shade of grey.

Here is another example. I will give a forewarning that this description will be graphic, both sexually and ethically, so I will be blocking it off from the rest of the ext with ------------------. Please understand that it is a real-world cultural reference and is not supposed to be taken as a post of vulgarity.

I am a cultural anthropologist, so I have been taught to view the world with skepticism concerning what is good and evil. This was drilled into us with many examples, to teach us that the world needs to be viewed in shades of grey and we shouldn't be so quick to judge others. It is hard to get accross without taking classes on the subject, so maybe that is what you need to do.

here is the example: please feel free to skip over it as per the warning above.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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In papua new guinea there is a tribe of people that practice something many of us would consider vulgar, and to you, evil. When a boy reaches manhood he is taken into the jungle by a senior man in the tribe. There the boy is supposed to give felachio to the older man because according to this tribe the lifeforce of a person comes from the sexual organs, by receiving the older man's fluid you are gaining his knowledge and wisdom about manhood.
If the boy refuses to do this, the older man of the tribe kills him. And there are good reasons for this. For one, the child rejected the religious theory of 'self' 'community' 'survival', etc. They live in a very hostile environment, where there is little food, and wild animals that would like nothing else other than to eat you. The tribe has no need for people that aren't strong enough to become adults, it puts a burden on the rest of the tribe, hence if you refuse, you are killed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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As members of a modernized society, we would say that is evil. They have no need to kill that child. But to those people in the tribe they are doing nothing wrong, they are acting out of survival. Are you going to then begrudge a whole society of people because of this choice? Wouldn't that make you judgmental? A flaw that many people of a modernized world call evil within itself? No, it becomes a shade of grey and a respresentation of the culture and upbringing of these people.

In the world of ferelden, Morrigan still acts (most of the time) within the social bounds of the culture. Many of the nobles say slavery is bad, but they have no problem forcing the elves to live in squalor, in rundown shanties, and have them work for little to no pay. With the right to take women on their wedding day and rape them simply because they can, because no one respects the 'knife-ears'. Yes in our modernized world we would consider that evil. But in the cultural confines of Ferelden it is a shade of grey.

Does that make any sense? Like I said, it is difficult to explain without taking cultural anthropology courses.

[Asylumer]

fantasypisces wrote...

Does that make any sense? Like I said, it is difficult to explain without taking cultural anthropology courses.

We must have had the same course... or that example gets around a lot.

[Subject696]

Dark83 wrote...

I thought dyslexia only applies to spelling (phoneticized), and shouldn't affect sentence structure and punctuation? Also, shouldn't being self-aware make you more careful in how you write?

well you must be mestaken I had to go to special schools and still I cant seem to get it all right matter is that I'm better with english spelling then dutch swedish german or france but would not realy matter

I will try to make short sentencis;)