885 réponses à ce sujet

[ZuZuDanaae]

FireDragon076 wrote...

Very easy way to see that yes, Captain Useless (Morrigan) is indeed chaotic stupid.

Play a chaotic stupid character yourself, have Morrigan in party and be evil for the sake of being evil. This is what is called chaotic stupid. Poop in the urn of sacred ashes, punch old ladies, be a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, over-compensate in every evil act and watch Morrigans approval rating, it will go up.

Or, on the other hand, do as I did.   Give Morrigan,and all of them,  the gifts supplied by the game, speak non-confrontationally with them in camp (and I dont mean agree) and be as good as Sir Galahad while killing darkspawn.  Her approval will still rise by the end. (Even if she doesnt always approve of what you do)

At the end of my first go in this game, all my party members were friends.  And I didnt have to do anything nasty for that to happen. 

At the same time, I managed to avoid taking the opinion of bots personally.

Modifié par ZuZuDanaae, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[Creature 1]

Rainen89 wrote...
Rationally people are better or more valuable, if you don't believe that you really don't observe culture at all. If people were not more valuable, better, more important we would not have the following.
Celebrities
90% (more, I don't know exact number I believe 96.) of wealth owned by less than 1% of the population of the US.
Treating children more important than the elderly.
Treating people who believe differently than us. (Throughout history the most recent bing a difference in religion. and difference in sexual preference.
Your basis of morality is not practical nor is it seen anywhere else. It would be great if it would. I would @#*@#ng love it if my gay friend had as much social worth than some straight guy but that is not the case. Nor is it the case elsewhere. Either way I really don't want to argue sociology right now or on this part of the forum and this is so far gone from the actual thread I believe we should stop. However, you're so wrong. People assign themselves higher than others all the time. It's not right but they do it.

Again, we're talking about different things.  I'm not talking about what people do do, I'm talking about what they ought to do.  People act selfishly and irrationally all the time, that doesn't mean we just give up and say, "They'll never get it right, let's just say anything goes."  Culturally we've advanced tremendously since the beginning of history.  If we keep working on it, things will improve more.  The social status of gays has improved greatly in just my lifetime, and I think will continue to improve.  I bet by the time my (as yet nonexistant) kids are adults gays will have equal access to marriage. 

[Dark83]

I'd like to point out the initial statement was:

Creature 1 wrote...
It's a dangerous precedent to define human worth in terms of utility

Not that you can't, say, value your wife over the guy mugging you.

[Rainen89]

What we ought to do will never be anywhere near what we will actually do because of human selfishness, it's the same thing that makes us succeed and the same thing that makes us horrible people. You're right that we shouldn't act selfishly and irrationally all the time but we have to in order to survive and prosper. That's the hypocrisy in all of this. In order for us to succeed, someone has to fail. This will never change. If there's rich, there's poverty, if there's famine, there's gluttony. If there's good, there's evil. . (Yes I know, giant run on.)

We've advanced yes, I wouldn't say tremendously but we have advanced and it only took us several thousand years, whee.

Modifié par Rainen89, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[fantasypisces]

Man I love this board, the simple fact that it is a game board and I do more intellectual thinking than on any others is amazing. Some say that is credit to the developers, but I think it is more credit to the people that play the game. Seriously love this board!



I heart you all.



(no I'm not being sarcastic, I am serious)

[NeroTulip]

Didn't read the whole thing, but just my two cents:

- I'm pretty sure that none of us would actually make the decision to save these villagers. It doesn't seem to be that rewarding, and it's far too dangerous. One thing people seem to forget is that from Morrigan's standpoint you can't just press the quickload button when you die.
I for one had to load the game 3 times to deal with these zombies, so on hindsight I guess she was right.

- Good and evil are social notions.  The "basis for morality" is that it's in the interest of someone. In the best case it benefits society, sometimes it just benefits smaller groups (the church for instance).

Morrigan's lived in the wilds all her life, out of society, you can't expect her to have your moral values. Nor can you judge her for it.

There's a reason why Bioware got rid of the bipolar good/evil thing, it's just not relevant.

- In any case stupid is not the right word. If I just learned that I had to fight an army of zombies I would be rather pissed, regardless of wether it's rational or not. I find her reaction realistic.

[Dark83]

NeroTulip wrote...
- I'm pretty sure that none of us would actually make the decision to save these villagers. It doesn't seem to be that rewarding, and it's far too dangerous.

You might say the same thing with regards to the Gulf War, the Iraq Invasion, and the campaign in Afghanistan.

[Lotion Soronarr]

fantasypisces wrote...
Whoa dude, calm down and stop freaking out on me. The point is that they are not evil actions in themselves, it is the levity of the situation and the thought process that makes those characteristics evil.

Hitler killed Jews because he didn't like them --- Evil
Morrigan killed slave elves (or at least supported it) because there was a benefit to herself (whether she got the benefit or her leader did, either way it benefited her) --- neutral outlook. She didn't want to kill the slaves simply because she wanted to kill them, there was a benefit to her outside the boundaries of law (chaotic neutral)

Are you like 10? The only evil you consider evil is killing for evils sake? who does that? NO ONE. Twirling moustache evil is just stupid. REAL evil id done ofr many reasons. Kiiling out of hatered is evil, but killing out of greed isn't?


Let's use your reasoning here.

Hitler - killed Jews cause he thought it was good for his country. There, by your logic he's not evil.

Sacrificing others for your gain IS the hallmark of evil. Good people don't do that. Good people find better ways to further their goals.


Really....this is getting redicolous. Bhelen's not evil. Branka's not evil. Morrigan's not evil. Howe is not evil.
Talking to peopel like you is an excercise in futility - the very concept of evil is lost on you.

[menasure]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...
Whoa dude, calm down and stop freaking out on me. The point is that they are not evil actions in themselves, it is the levity of the situation and the thought process that makes those characteristics evil.

Hitler killed Jews because he didn't like them --- Evil
Morrigan killed slave elves (or at least supported it) because there was a benefit to herself (whether she got the benefit or her leader did, either way it benefited her) --- neutral outlook. She didn't want to kill the slaves simply because she wanted to kill them, there was a benefit to her outside the boundaries of law (chaotic neutral)

Are you like 10? The only evil you consider evil is killing for evils sake? who does that? NO ONE. Twirling moustache evil is just stupid. REAL evil id done ofr many reasons. Kiiling out of hatered is evil, but killing out of greed isn't?


Let's use your reasoning here.

Hitler - killed Jews cause he thought it was good for his country. There, by your logic he's not evil.

Sacrificing others for your gain IS the hallmark of evil. Good people don't do that. Good people find better ways to further their goals.


Really....this is getting redicolous. Bhelen's not evil. Branka's not evil. Morrigan's not evil. Howe is not evil.
Talking to peopel like you is an excercise in futility - the very concept of evil is lost on you.

good an evil, i am pretty sure that his concept does not exist in nature. a moral standard is a very subjective cultural human invention, though we love to project our own standard on others and call things "normal" the way we see it, conveniently ignoring other facts to support our own cause.  we sacrifice others all the time for our own goal, just not as extreme ... try to find a job without taking the place of someone else who was interested for example. with the money i use to feed my cat i could have saved humans in third world countries ...  evil, right? yet we all do it and pretend to have morals. in truth everybody has them but the standard is not quite the same for everyone.

[termokanden]

So what you're saying is she is an Objectivist (follower of Ayn Rand)?

I honestly wouldn't know about that. It was my impression that modern satanism isn't all that far from some of Ayn Rand's ideas. That said, I'm a person of no religion or specific philosophy, and I'm certainly no expert on these matters.

I don't think Morrigan follows a certain philosophy consistently, but her views simply reminded me of satanism. The fact that she's preachy and annoying about it is a different story,

Whether you can call her evil is a difficult question. In any case, I think selfish is a much better word. If you look at the real world, there are actually a lot of people who, like Morrigan, do not care about anything other than improving their own situation. Are they evil too, or are they merely human?

Modifié par termokanden, 22 décembre 2009 - 10:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

menasure wrote...
good an evil, i am pretty sure that his concept does not exist in nature. a moral standard is a very subjective cultural human invention, though we love to project our own standard on others and call things "normal" the way we see it, conveniently ignoring other facts to support our own cause.  we sacrifice others all the time for our own goal, just not as extreme ... try to find a job without taking the place of someone else who was interested for example. with the money i use to feed my cat i could have saved humans in third world countries ...  evil, right? yet we all do it and pretend to have morals. in truth everybody has them but the standard is not quite the same for everyone.

NO. And no.

What you described is not evil.
Taking someones job? Puhlease..You have just as much right to live as anyone else. If you got a job and the other guy didn't, it's not because you "stole" the job from him - it's because oyu were picked and have better skills.
No, feeding a cat/dog is not evil. You're talking nonsense here.

Even if you do not belive in universal morality, if morality is a social construct, then it is one born uot of common sense and decency and as such things that we consider evil today are still evil.

[Sialater]

Yes, but I don't go around throwing stones at glass houses. I don't judge Morrigan as evil because given her circumstances, I'm not sure I'd have turned out differently. Also, she does take the PC's interactions into account with her dialogue. She could be lying, of course, but then, so could everyone else in your party.



Flemeth never loved her daughter. THAT will mess anyone up.

[fantasypisces]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sacrificing others for your gain IS the hallmark of evil. Good people don't do that. Good people find better ways to further their goals.

So any war ever fought in the entirety of human history is evil? A lawyer defending a person in court (so that he can make his money) and thereby making his opponent suffer the death penalty (whether the person was guilty or innocent) then makes that lawyer evil, even though he may be using that money he made to give to local charities.

A medicinal company that does animal testing (lets just say the only test on Rats, no one likes rats, right?) is evil? Even though not testing that medicine could mean deaths of thousands. But by doing the testings you are in fact testing on animals that don't have a choice.

My one example, killing the child because he refused to become a man is evil? Even though that child could mean (from a faith belief) the death of the whole tribe.

An employer firing an employee because that employee is bringing down the company (that you own) is evil, according to you. You did just sacrifice that person to further your goals.

Killing others, by your defenition, in self defense would be evil.  You are sacrificing them so that you may live.

Being a landlord and evicting a family of five (including two newborn twins) because they can not pay rent (therefore hurting you financially because it is your job) is evil? Even though they signed the contract and you just condemned them to the streets.

I could go on and on based upon your narrowmindedness. But ultimately I am getting tired of it. You say it is futile to argue with me and I can say the same about you. It doesn't matter what I say because you will always define your world in black and white criteria. Maybe I am just more open-minded, who knows. But to me the world is a shade of grey with societal norms determining what is wholly and completely wrong (which you would call evil) and what is morally and superiorly right (what you would call good).

So I'm done, because like you said, it is futile. I'm just going to be the one to gracefully step aside before all the namecalling gets out of hand.

[robertthebard]

People still haven't learned to not respond to Lotion? How can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Some wisdom at last. No, the oppinions dont' have to be right or wrong. Depends on what's the oppinion and what's it based on.

What I am "crusading" against is this redicolous character judgment that's so devoid of any actual thought that it sickens me.

Take for example, Alistair not telling you who his father is. Some literally jumped on it, claiming as a fact that's he's a douche because of that, completley ignoring his reasons. Because they clearly don't matter when judging someones character, right? Becauseh e clearly MUST tell you, right?

Source

[fantasypisces]

robertthebard wrote...

People still haven't learned to not respond to Lotion? How can anyone take anything he says seriously?

Some wisdom at last. No, the oppinions dont' have to be right or wrong. Depends on what's the oppinion and what's it based on.
What I am "crusading" against is this redicolous character judgment that's so devoid of any actual thought that it sickens me.
Take for example, Alistair not telling you who his father is. Some literally jumped on it, claiming as a fact that's he's a douche because of that, completley ignoring his reasons. Because they clearly don't matter when judging someones character, right? Becauseh e clearly MUST tell you, right?

Source

I'm still kind of new! I didn't know
But I could kind of agree with his Alistair reference, but that is neither here nor there.

[Dark83]

"Faith" and beliefs are used to justify a lot of things, but much like pork to the Jews, they all stem from something. In the case of that tribe (again, I may be cynical) it's pretty much child abuse on the part of the clergy. Much like militant Islamic extremists demonizing America (which shores up their own support base and unites their people under their control), or the McCarthy trials, while there may be some basis to their claims, the motives for the actions are highly suspect. Their (supposed) beliefs do not excuse their actions.

Does that tribe normally find it acceptable to force their children to give the men blowjobs? If not, then even by their own standards of morality it is wrong. Yet another corruption of religion and abuse of faith.

[trueKieran]

NeroTulip wrote...
- Good and evil are social notions.  The "basis for morality" is that it's in the interest of someone. In the best case it benefits society, sometimes it just benefits smaller groups (the church for instance).

Morrigan's lived in the wilds all her life, out of society, you can't expect her to have your moral values. Nor can you judge her for it.

Those are the key words here, I actually don't get why so many people insist on Morrigan being "evil" while she is in fact just the stereotyped "raised in the wild" character. Two things you find in all those chars are the belief in "only the strong survive" and the love/need for freedom above all.

Just take a look at a few of her comments, for example in Lothering where she rants about you helping with the merchant (if you do). It's said several times that the village is full of refugees, they have alot of townfolks and templars... they could easily solve that problem themselves without the help of 4 adventurers. Her point is just that you have a blight to fight and if they don't stand up for themselves, why do you have to bother? They certainly won't help you.

You also find her ready to release imprisoned ones and getting uncomfortable falling in love... remember the thing about freedom? It's the same reason why she hates the church who tells the people what to believe in and what to think and the same reason she thinks very low of the mages in the circle since they voluntarily gave up their freedom in her eyes.

Modifié par trueKieran, 22 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[Obadiah]

Morrgian says, "An intersting proposal, if a tad messy" to the Tevinter Mage's plan to sacrifice elves (even if one of them is your father) in order to gain extra health. If you turn down the offer and kill the mage, Morrigan disapproves.



She's evil.

[Sialater]

Then don't take her to the Alienage. By her own definition, the Elves are weak because they allow their own cage.

[robertthebard]

It's my opinion that a lot of the people that dismiss Morrigan as evil out of hand would have never made it out of the caves. It makes me glad to think that some of our forebearers were made of sterner stuff, or we wouldn't be here to have this conversation. Somebody related the alpha male thing in one of these conversations once, and even said that a lone wolf wouldn't survive. I think it was somebody that I don't bother to respond to any more, but this "fact" is wrong. The only reason we don't have more wolves where I live is that man encroached into their territory, and hunted them to near extinction. Simply because they hunted herd animals. I'm sure that the Morrigan is evil club has no problem seeing the wolves as evil for doing what they do, and yet won't condemn man for nearly wiping out a species. Both did it for the same reason, survival. Yet one is evil for doing so, and the other is perfectly justified?

[Sialater]

I think you're misunderstand what Alpha Male means, but I agree with you in principle.





Humans are a herd/pack animal, too.

[trueKieran]

Obadiah wrote...

Morrgian says, "An intersting proposal, if a tad messy" to the Tevinter Mage's plan to sacrifice elves (even if one of them is your father) in order to gain extra health. If you turn down the offer and kill the mage, Morrigan disapproves.

She's evil.

Sometimes I feel like talking to a wall...  For example with my second character, a female city elf, after she told me to kill Flemeth, I was able to ask her one more time if that's what she wanted. She answered something like (not playing english version): "Yes.... no... normally no, she's my mother after all... but it's either her or me now".

[robertthebard]

Nah, I understand Alpha Male pretty good. A lone wolf is a pretty solid example, unless it's female, but the concept is still the same, large and in charge. It was more a lead in to my point about what's being used here to define Morrigan, and how some could find a way to justify using the same concept to define "not evil".

[Sialater]

I meant that the alpha male/female is supposed to take care of those "lesser" than s/he. Not just be their boss. Morrigan doesn't get that, either.

[TrueAlucard]

Obadiah wrote...

Morrgian says, "An intersting proposal, if a tad messy" to the Tevinter Mage's plan to sacrifice elves (even if one of them is your father) in order to gain extra health. If you turn down the offer and kill the mage, Morrigan disapproves.

She's evil.

 Not really. She wants to survive. That is how she grew up. If it meant to kill someone to better herself with out any sort of payment(Let it be law or otherwise) she would take it in a heartbeat. That is also way she wants to leave you if she starts to love you. She is looking after herself. Morrigan is certainly selfish, but that is the only world she knows. Seeing how the Templars would indeed kill her as a child if they had a chance.

 If she did not grew up like so, she would be less selfish and more weak.