885 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Raxxman wrote...

Additionally Morrigan is as shallow as plate, you can keep her happy by simply throwing jewelry at her, which is a fairly damning mark against her personality, or the writing of the game.

You can get explanation of that if you speak with her. The first person other than her own mother she happened to see was a noble all decked in jewellery. This made an imprint in her mind, all this glitter becoming associated with power and nothing short of awesome. She does recognize it can be seen shallow but doesn't really see why she should be bothered by others thinking of her as such.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

No, the plan would be to get in the castle as fast as possible.  The village is inconsequential.

Even though this plan is based on wishful thinking.

And yes, if you let the village burn the gates are indeed left wide open.  You don't know that at the time of talking to Teagan, of course, but you do know that castles aren't impenetrable fortresses.

Outright lie. The gates are down after the village is sacked.
You get in by finding Teagan in the chantry.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

If you wind up in a castle jail, you're obviously in the castle.  That does not take one assumption.

I can see you don't like chilling out, but I really do suggest it.  Log off and chill out.  For your own sake.

And how do you know that door leads to the castle dungeon?

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

No, the plan would be to get in the castle as fast as possible.  The village is inconsequential.

Even though this plan is based on wishful thinking.

And yes, if you let the village burn the gates are indeed left wide open.  You don't know that at the time of talking to Teagan, of course, but you do know that castles aren't impenetrable fortresses.

Outright lie. The gates are down after the village is sacked.
You get in by finding Teagan in the chantry.

Wishful thinking?  No, the plan is based on action.  Get in castle, solve problem.  No need to think wishfully.

I have not played the latter way.  Regardless, you're in the castle in the way that was most expedient.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

If you wind up in a castle jail, you're obviously in the castle.  That does not take one assumption.

I can see you don't like chilling out, but I really do suggest it.  Log off and chill out.  For your own sake.

And how do you know that door leads to the castle dungeon?

By winding up in the castle dungeon.  Not that difficult.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

If you wind up in a castle jail, you're obviously in the castle.  That does not take one assumption.

I can see you don't like chilling out, but I really do suggest it.  Log off and chill out.  For your own sake.

And how do you know that door leads to the castle dungeon?

Supposedly after he has "explored it".

But you see, he's too stupid to realize that YOU CANNOT BREAK THE DOOR IN THE GAME. So EVERYTHING he says is bull****.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

[mrao]

I'm not sure why you are given the option to reason with her in some situations, but not at all in others. I enjoyed her character from camp conversations and the romance dialogues, but I didn't much appreciate her inconsistencies from the main quest itself. Imo, she would not be nearly a disliked by some if the player could actually reason with her in situations like redcliffe.

[Recidiva]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

No, the plan would be to get in the castle as fast as possible.  The village is inconsequential.

And yes, if you let the village burn the gates are indeed left wide open.  You don't know that at the time of talking to Teagan, of course, but you do know that castles aren't impenetrable fortresses.

Why is the village inconsequential?  It's got people in it.  People that could fight darkspawn if they're not, say...dead from being overrun night after night by an unnatural invasion.  One possibly caused by Loghain, showing that he's afraid of Arl Eamon's power.  Just going to the tavern and talking to Berwick gives you that info.

Are all people inconsequential?  Why would you fight darkspawn then to save them?  Why not just get drunk wtih Lloyd and then self immolate on the fumes while singing some refrain of "screw 'em!"

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

If you wind up in a castle jail, you're obviously in the castle.  That does not take one assumption.

I can see you don't like chilling out, but I really do suggest it.  Log off and chill out.  For your own sake.

And how do you know that door leads to the castle dungeon?

Supposedly after he has "explored it".

But you see, he's too stupid to realize that YOU CANNOT BREAK THE DOOR IN THE GAME. So EVERYTHING he says is bull****.

I specifically said that I understand the limits of discovery.  Glad you can read.  They don't want to let you interact with the door at all, and that's fine.  My point is that the fastest way in is not obviously to defend the village.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Recidiva wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

No, the plan would be to get in the castle as fast as possible.  The village is inconsequential.

And yes, if you let the village burn the gates are indeed left wide open.  You don't know that at the time of talking to Teagan, of course, but you do know that castles aren't impenetrable fortresses.

Why is the village inconsequential?  It's got people in it.  People that could fight darkspawn if they're not, say...dead from being overrun night after night by an unnatural invasion.  One possibly caused by Loghain, showing that he's afraid of Arl Eamon's power.  Just going to the tavern and talking to Berwick gives you that info.
Are all people inconsequential?  Why would you fight darkspawn then to save them?  Why not just get drunk wtih Lloyd and then self immolate on the fumes while singing some refrain of "screw 'em!"

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

Really, I have not seen anyone on the internet in a long time who is as stupid as you. This isn't even an insult. I am truly amazed - how can someone be so illogical? Even your response to me has nothing to do with what I said. It's amusing, really. Do go on with your, errr, theories.

[Matthew Young CT]

[quote]Well in line with chaotic stupid.
[/quote]
Well now that's just bizarre. What's stupid about profiteering?
[quote]
Yes. Doesn't help you kill the Archdemon.
[/quote]
Neither does giving her a shiny mirror.
[/quote]
Nope, but she likes it. Killing the Archdemon isn't the ONLY thing she wants.
[quote]
Too bad she won't keep her mouth shut.
[/quote]
Kick her out the party.
[quote]
Not knowing when you can use someone's plight and need for help to your advantage makes you stupid.
[/quote]
She thinks you should go and kill Loghain. It's a good idea. Kill Loghain, force the Dalish/Mages/Dwarves to help you, kill the Archdemon.
[quote]
Yep you're totally right.
They only give you money, useful items and help advance your current quests.
Wait, what?
[/quote]
They do, but in most cases we as gamers only do them because we know, per game design, we will receive rewards. From Morrigan's point of view, it's usually a waste of time.
[/quote]
Which is more than Morrigan can do.
[/quote]
Don't agree.
[quote]
Yes if you save up 400 gold you can bribe the archdemon into sodding off.
[/quote]
Nope you can buy stuff to kill it.

[quote]
Morrigan fanboys.
The other white meat.
[/quote]
I consider her views consistent and not stupid, nothing more. I don't even play with her most of the time.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

Really, I have not seen anyone on the internet in a long time who is as stupid as you. This isn't even an insult. I am truly amazed - how can someone be so illogical? Even your response to me has nothing to do with what I said. It's amusing, really. Do go on with your, errr, theories.

Yes, keep shoving that leg on down your throat.  I'm sure it feels good to vent, but you'll feel bad about it later.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

By winding up in the castle dungeon.  Not that difficult.

So you know the door leads to somewhere important by going to that place even though the door is locked so you'd have to spend a lot of time trying to break into a secure secret door based on information you could only have if you had opened that door in the first place.

Sure why not. While we're at it I'll just fly to the top of the mage's tower, bombard the werewolf lair with satellite weapons, transport the Anvil of the Void to my camp on Sten's back and teleport Loghain into space with the USS Enterprise.

[mrao]

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

I would think that the player would be able to appeal to Morrigans personality by noting how useful a tool a powerful man like the Arl would be.

[Akka le Vil]

Vilegrim wrote...

or at noble birth

I don't have such problem about this, as it's consistent with the medieval setting of the game. I've more of a problem about the "he's a children, so he's totally sacred". If they had made more of the fuss about the fact that Connor is noble and less about how he's a children and as such innocent, or if at least I could have had the possibility to answer "because all the guards and villagers that died because of him where guilty of what, exactly ?", that would have been more bearable.

tmp7704 wrote...

It is not unreasonable reaction though. Or if it is, then it makes pretty much all templars equally unreasonable since this is the route they want to take as well. Morrigan knows what a person with demon inside can be like (her mother is one after all) and you have no way to tell if any of these mages you encounter are really still human, no matter how they appear.

The big difference is that the Templars want to kill the mages out of a sense of duty, to protect innocents from possible abominations, while Morrigan want it purely out of spite and pettiness. It makes the first more "lawful" than anything and Morrigan frankly "evil".

If anything, i considered my own character's actions rather naive in that particular scenario because she was gambling the mages can be still useful/worth saving because they didn't appear to be changed yet. And that could turn out a really bad mistake.

Yes, which is why I rather liked the argument of Cullen. But Morrigan's desire isn't based on anything like that, on the contrary, as she specifically doesn't give a damn about the responsabilities of mages becoming abomination as long as she can have her fun without interference.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

By winding up in the castle dungeon.  Not that difficult.

So you know the door leads to somewhere important by going to that place even though the door is locked so you'd have to spend a lot of time trying to break into a secure secret door based on information you could only have if you had opened that door in the first place.

Sure why not. While we're at it I'll just fly to the top of the mage's tower, bombard the werewolf lair with satellite weapons, transport the Anvil of the Void to my camp on Sten's back and teleport Loghain into space with the USS Enterprise.

It takes a few moments to break down other doors in the game.

Seriously, log off and chill out.  You've been lost for coherency for a long time.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

If you wind up in a castle jail, you're obviously in the castle.  That does not take one assumption.

I can see you don't like chilling out, but I really do suggest it.  Log off and chill out.  For your own sake.

And how do you know that door leads to the castle dungeon?

How long are you (both) going to go on about this. It is simple:
He wishes that there should be some way to get into the castle without either fighting to save a couple of villagers or just walking away and just seeming stupid. There should be a way to either get the ring from Teagan or another way in. He knows a way in, you should be able to get in that way, when the zombies attack the village.

You on the other hand seem hell-bent to prove that saving the village is essential. He doesn't say that he wants to kill every villager by wringing their necks, but they are not vital to the mission.

But there is now the option to either defend the village or walking away for no good reason (since you have no other way in).

[Raxxman]

Oh you're wasting time to help a blacksmith who might be able to help you achieve your long term goal, but it's not direct, and I wont see past that. I disapprove.



Oh you're wasting time shopping for jewelry which serves no purpose, does nothing to achieve your long term goal, but don't I look fabulous. I approve



Explain to me how that's not shallow. Changing morals for minor personal gain is the definition of shallow. While the whole gift system is a bit simplistic, the other characters are not directly opposed to concept of being nice to other people, which is the central theme in Morrigans personality.



I'd say do people not think before they post? but I already know the answer.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Why is the village inconsequential?  It's got people in it.  People that could fight darkspawn if they're not, say...dead from being overrun night after night by an unnatural invasion.

There were people in Lothering also (and more of them in fact) but it didn't make the player's character to make a desperate last stand to save them and their village right there and then. Even though these people could fight darkspawn too.

If you could leave Lothering to its fate it is not really out of character to give Redcliffe village the same treatment. It's not inconsequential as much as it's not crucial.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 novembre 2009 - 01:59 .

[Dmuse]

I don't see how this can be considered poor writing though. It's her character and she sticks to it -- for whatever reason.



My opinion is that she's upset with choices that seem to be more trouble than they are worth in the context of fighting the darkspawn. In the case of Redcliff:

You have a potential ally.

-- This ally doesn't appear to have access to a lot of troops, but would help against Logain.

IF the Arl is still alive, AND he is willing to help you he might be useful.



Running around, doing errands and attempting to save someone that may or may not help, much less may or may not be alive (and, realistically, most likely not), when you have darkspawn knocking on your back door and there are other allies which you can recruit with much less trouble seems like a poor decision.



While you of course want all the help you can get, you have a limited amount of time to get that help. If you spend it all doing favors for someone who may not help you are worse off than if you went to people who have a signed contract to help you.



There is plenty of logic for her disproving when looking at the bigger picture -- and that's without taking into consideration any of her 'interesting' views on power/humans/weakness/etc.

[The Capital Gaultier]

mrao wrote...

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

I would think that the player would be able to appeal to Morrigans personality by noting how useful a tool a powerful man like the Arl would be.

That would also be nice.

[The Angry One]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Well now that's just bizarre. What's stupid about profiteering?

Sticking her nose in it is what's stupid.

Nope, but she likes it. Killing the Archdemon isn't the ONLY thing she wants.

So it's all about her is it?

Kick her out the party.

Yes kick one out of only 2 mages available to the party. I'll just write my letter of surrender to the darkspawn while I'm at it.

She thinks you should go and kill Loghain. It's a good idea. Kill Loghain, force the Dalish/Mages/Dwarves to help you, kill the Archdemon.

Yes, march into his palace and kill him! Not like he has an army in the way or anything.

They do, but in most cases we as gamers only do them because we know, per game design, we will receive rewards. From Morrigan's point of view, it's usually a waste of time.

A waste of time after the 10th time we've gotten something useful?

Nope you can buy stuff to kill it.

Which you can also do with the money and resources you get helping people.

I consider her views consistent and not stupid, nothing more. I don't even play with her most of the time.

Her views are consistantly stupid. Thinking only of one's self even when action on your part to help others will ultimately benefit YOU is deeply stupid.