885 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

I don't understand why people keep acting like these little dings of annoyance are a big deal. If she threw hissy fits like Alistair, that would be worth commenting on. Making a snarky comment and being annoyed for a few hours is trivial.



Besides, she's right. There is absolutely no reason to believe that investing major effort into saving Redcliffe will pay off. It beggars belief that a sick unto death Arl is still alive in a castle full of zombie monsters. We already know that the Arl's army is scattered and practically destroyed. The knights all went off on the quest for the sacred ashes, some have died, and no one knows where the rest are. The militia in the village is pitifully small, ill armed, and has already suffered significant casualties. Its not even clear why they are defending the village at all instead of getting out of there. Being a refugee sucks, but dying to zombie monsters is rather worse.

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

It takes a few moments to break down other doors in the game.

Seriously, log off and chill out.  You've been lost for coherency for a long time.

Prove that this nobles-only door to a secure castle is easily broken down.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

Really, I have not seen anyone on the internet in a long time who is as stupid as you. This isn't even an insult. I am truly amazed - how can someone be so illogical? Even your response to me has nothing to do with what I said. It's amusing, really. Do go on with your, errr, theories.

Yes, keep shoving that leg on down your throat.  I'm sure it feels good to vent, but you'll feel bad about it later.

Why would I shove a leg down my throat, my dear? You are free to try and force me, though 

[mrao]

I don't see how this can be considered poor writing though. It's her character and she sticks to it -- for whatever reason.

Well for example in the Anvil of the avoid, you can convince Morrigan why keeping it around might not be such a good idea. 

In other places such as redcliffe, she is unreasonable. We should at least be given the option, even if she won't listen (depending on your persuade score).

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

It takes a few moments to break down other doors in the game.

Seriously, log off and chill out.  You've been lost for coherency for a long time.

Prove that this nobles-only door to a secure castle is easily broken down.

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

I don't understand why people keep acting like these little dings of annoyance are a big deal. If she threw hissy fits like Alistair, that would be worth commenting on. Making a snarky comment and being annoyed for a few hours is trivial.

Besides, she's right. There is absolutely no reason to believe that investing major effort into saving Redcliffe will pay off. It beggars belief that a sick unto death Arl is still alive in a castle full of zombie monsters. We already know that the Arl's army is scattered and practically destroyed. The knights all went off on the quest for the sacred ashes, some have died, and no one knows where the rest are. The militia in the village is pitifully small, ill armed, and has already suffered significant casualties. Its not even clear why they are defending the village at all instead of getting out of there. Being a refugee sucks, but dying to zombie monsters is rather worse.

Given that the Arl is dying, it's all the more reason to help TEAGAN so he'll take Eamon's place and support you in Eamon's name. It's not only about troops, it's the political support you need against Loghain.

[doubledeviant]

mrao wrote...

I'm not sure why you are given the option to reason with her in some situations, but not at all in others. I enjoyed her character from camp conversations and the romance dialogues, but I didn't much appreciate her inconsistencies from the main quest itself. Imo, she would not be nearly a disliked by some if the player could actually reason with her in situations like redcliffe.

I agree.  I mentioned in the OP that it is rare to be able to discuss your motives with Morrigan.  Thus far, I have seen only one option to use Persuade to explain your actions to her.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

Really, I have not seen anyone on the internet in a long time who is as stupid as you. This isn't even an insult. I am truly amazed - how can someone be so illogical? Even your response to me has nothing to do with what I said. It's amusing, really. Do go on with your, errr, theories.

Yes, keep shoving that leg on down your throat.  I'm sure it feels good to vent, but you'll feel bad about it later.

Why would I shove a leg down my throat, my dear? You are free to try and force me, though 

I said that if you wind up in a castle dungeon with a prisoner of the Arl's inside, you'd know you were in the castle.

You seem to assume that I knew i would wind up there.  I would not on my first play-through and certainly would not as a character.

So yes, continue with that foot in your mouth.

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...
I didn't get much of that but that's probably because rather than talk about it i just went and did it

Well, technically the boy's mother did protest a lot but that's only natural, and in the end she recognized the necessity and did the deed herself. Sad as it was.

I don't really mind Isolde crying about the boy so much. In fact, it was pretty consistent : the child indirectly caused the whole village to die, so if she did protect him so far, it wouldn't be logical that she gives up easily.

But the whole rest of the "good" cast being in arms about a child ? Yeah, he's a child, doesn't mean his life is worth ten times more than another because of this.
In my "normal" (read : "good") playthrough, I helped him, but I would have liked that people actually wondered how to save EVERYONE with such fervor, and not ONLY the child.

[The Angry One]

mrao wrote...

I don't see how this can be considered poor writing though. It's her character and she sticks to it -- for whatever reason.

Well for example in the Anvil of the avoid, you can convince Morrigan why keeping it around might not be such a good idea. 

In
other places such as redcliffe, she is unreasonable. We should at least
be given the option, even if she won't listen (depending on your
persuade score).

Ironically that's the one time in the game where her opinion is justified. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

Then quit talking about how easy it'd be to break into an unbreakable door.

[mrao]

The Angry One wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

I don't understand why people keep acting like these little dings of annoyance are a big deal. If she threw hissy fits like Alistair, that would be worth commenting on. Making a snarky comment and being annoyed for a few hours is trivial.

Besides, she's right. There is absolutely no reason to believe that investing major effort into saving Redcliffe will pay off. It beggars belief that a sick unto death Arl is still alive in a castle full of zombie monsters. We already know that the Arl's army is scattered and practically destroyed. The knights all went off on the quest for the sacred ashes, some have died, and no one knows where the rest are. The militia in the village is pitifully small, ill armed, and has already suffered significant casualties. Its not even clear why they are defending the village at all instead of getting out of there. Being a refugee sucks, but dying to zombie monsters is rather worse.

Given that the Arl is dying, it's all the more reason to help TEAGAN so he'll take Eamon's place and support you in Eamon's name. It's not only about troops, it's the political support you need against Loghain.

I viewed her first comment in Lothering about killing Loghain to illustrate that she has no knowledge of such things as politics. Hell, take her to Denerim for the first time and she comments that she has never seen so many people in one place. Honestly, I would not buy her being politically savvy in the slightest given her upbringing. Knowing the purpose for which Flemeth raised her, do you really think she would want Morrigan to be far sighted and strategic? Morrigan is naive for a reason, all the easier for Flemeth to keep her under control.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Sticking her nose in it is what's stupid.

But she isn't sticking her nose into anyone's profiteering, if anything she comments you shouldn't be sticking in yours...

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

Then quit talking about how easy it'd be to break into an unbreakable door.

You can only assume it's unbreakable.  Anyways, it's not my point.  My point is that there is a more direct route to the castle.  You may not know it, and Teagan won't pony up the details, but it does exist.  In every castle.

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

Then quit talking about how easy it'd be to break into an unbreakable door.

He is not saying that you CAN do it, he is saying that you SHOULD be able to. If you don't metagame, you don't know that there isn't any entrance.

Good grief.

[The Angry One]

mrao wrote...

I viewed her first comment in Lothering about killing Loghain to illustrate that she has no knowledge of such things as politics. Hell, take her to Denerim for the first time and she comments that she has never seen so many people in one place. Honestly, I would not buy her being politically savvy in the slightest given her upbringing. Knowing the purpose for which Flemeth raised her, do you really think she would want Morrigan to be far sighted and strategic?

Why not? Surely a more developed mind would make for a better host. Flemeth certainly seemed to teach her everything else.
Besides, let's assume she doesn't know about politics. Fine. That's why she should keep her damn mouth shut in such affairs. Not knowing about the intricacies of politics doesn't make you stupid, making brash comments on things you know nothing about does.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

That door leads directly to the castle jail where Jowan is located.  At that point, it's obvious where the passage leads, and you can say hi to Jowan, too.

No it isn't freaking obvious. Stop being a damn hypocrite, you accuse everyone else of making assumptions and using omniscience while doing it yourself. You don't know where that door leads, and you don't know Jowan is down there.

Yeah, indeed. What the hell is he talking about, it's obvious the door leads to the jail with Jowan in it? Errr...

I don't see a reason to continue arguing with this troll when the only thing he can do is say "log off" when his extremely bad logic isn't accepted...

If you don't even want to read, you really can shove your foot in your mouth, can't you?

Good on you.

Really, I have not seen anyone on the internet in a long time who is as stupid as you. This isn't even an insult. I am truly amazed - how can someone be so illogical? Even your response to me has nothing to do with what I said. It's amusing, really. Do go on with your, errr, theories.

Yes, keep shoving that leg on down your throat.  I'm sure it feels good to vent, but you'll feel bad about it later.

Why would I shove a leg down my throat, my dear? You are free to try and force me, though 

I said that if you wind up in a castle dungeon with a prisoner of the Arl's inside, you'd know you were in the castle.

You seem to assume that I knew i would wind up there.  I would not on my first play-through and certainly would not as a character.

So yes, continue with that foot in your mouth.

Oh really? With your powers of observation, I think that's bit of a stretch, but otherwise yes. What is your point?

The point is that Morrigan does not know there is a quicker way to the castle and she does not know that the door leads to the castle dungeons.

If you have a weird hobby of eating your own foot, it's alright. Just don't try to force that upon others.

[Recidiva]

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

Fair enough.  It's just a strategically short-sighted and ill-conceived point of view to the story as a whole.  Unless the whole point of the game is to remain bored, jaded and uninvolved for the entire process.  It's certainly possible.  But just like in reality, for me, unrewarding and a flat out justification for not helping or not being the person that solves problems, but always makes it someone else's responsibility.  No, Morrigan didn't create the problem, but if she's not part of the solution, I want her gone.
The fact is, she's there because Flemeth says so.  Alistair is there because Duncan said so.  You're the only one there because you said so.  And I just resonate more with doing something and trying to do something good with it in order to create a positive ripple effect.
We all know what Morrigan thinks.  What did YOU think?  Would you really have spent several hours trying to burrow through a door that might have a magical component as well as a physical key and been stuck in the windmill at midnight examining a splinter while you were overrun with no backup?

[ZeroRate]

I have to say it annoyed me to see the disproval no this, also when you go to pay the girl for the Green Sword and she inists she wants notihng for it and you offer 50 silver sten says there is no honor in ripping her off! she said she didn't want it back or any money! she should be happy with 50s sten you ******!

[Nathair Nimheil]

Nothing that happens later on explains Morrigan's rank stupidity in strategic matters.
If she doesn't know then she should keep her damn mouth shut.

She's written to be entirely two dimensional in a number of those encounters. A few of her positions come across as painfully childish.

She claims to be a cynical manipulator but she doesn't even grasp something as fundamental as "one hand washes the other" or "If you want someone's help don't pee in their cornflakes". Gee, with attributes like that I think she should go into a career in politics, become a royal advisor or something...

[The Angry One]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

Then quit talking about how easy it'd be to break into an unbreakable door.

You can only assume it's unbreakable.  Anyways, it's not my point.  My point is that there is a more direct route to the castle.  You may not know it, and Teagan won't pony up the details, but it does exist.  In every castle.

It's a conclusion based on the available evidence and the nature and role of this door
And even if we assume the PC just *knows* there's a secret passage for every castle, for all we know it's all the way in the middle of the lake. What happens if we find no door in the village? Go for a swim? Just how far will you go to not help the villagers?

"Success! We found the secret passage and opened it! It only took a week!"
"Defending the village and getting the Bann's help would've taken a day you know."
"Shut the hell up!"

*Morrigan approves +10*

[doubledeviant]

The Angry One wrote...

Given that the Arl is dying, it's all the more reason to help TEAGAN so he'll take Eamon's place and support you in Eamon's name. It's not only about troops, it's the political support you need against Loghain.

Very much agree; primary motive during the quest.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

I don't understand why people keep acting like these little dings of annoyance are a big deal. If she threw hissy fits like Alistair, that would be worth commenting on. Making a snarky comment and being annoyed for a few hours is trivial.

Alistair is consistent and becomes mad at things that are deserving.
Morrigan is just capricious and whimsical, in denial and very inconsistent. THAT makes her irritating.
She's just going on and on and on about freedom, not bothering about emotions and being efficient, but she is just the most easily disaproving character in the game, with huge penalties if you say "yes", and large penalties if you say "no". The only method to gain approval with her is to accept everything she says, except when she doesn't want you to accept (nice work guessing which are which), and the method to not lose approval is to never have any opinion on anything - except when she wants you to have one, good luck guessing again.

She's more "touched" than "touching".

Besides, she's right. There is absolutely no reason to believe that investing major effort into saving Redcliffe will pay off. It beggars belief that a sick unto death Arl is still alive in a castle full of zombie monsters.

Well then, blame the scenarists for making Redcliffe a requirement for the main quest. We're supposed to NEED the Arl to oppose Loghain, so b*tching about actually advancing our interests when she's always all about "we should only bother with our interests" is just dumb - which is precisely a perfect example of her inconsistancies.

[Matthew Young CT]

[quote]Sticking her nose in it is what's stupid.
[/quote]
She doesn't. She comments on the player sticking their nose in it.
[quote]So it's all about her is it?
[/quote]
Er, yes. She's a narcissist.
[/quote]
Yes kick one out of only 2 mages available to the party. I'll just write my letter of surrender to the darkspawn while I'm at it.
[/quote]
Pff, you can win with anyone.
[quote]
Yes, march into his palace and kill him! Not like he has an army in the way or anything.
[/quote]
He has guards, not an army. Why would he have an entire army protecting him? And I wipe out all the guards protecting Howe, so I don't see why I can't do the same to Loghain.
[quote]
A waste of time after the 10th time we've gotten something useful?
[/quote]
I don't think characters should be written unrealistically to conform with game conventions.
[quote]
Which you can also do with the money and resources you get helping people.
[/quote]
So you agree that giving 5 gold to a beggar is stupid. Gotcha.
[quote]
Her views are consistantly stupid.
[/quote]
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
[quote]
Thinking only of one's self even when action on your part to help others will ultimately benefit YOU is deeply stupid.
[/quote]
Yes, that would be stupid. I don't agree she does that.

[Vormaerin]

You assume that Teagan can inherit without approval of the crown, which is possible but not consistent with medieval practice. Also, the idea of calling a Landsmeet and facing down Loghain politically is something that first gets suggested by Arl Eamon. All the evidence to this point is that you are raising a rival army, which Teagan can contribute little to.



There are reasons to try to save the village, but its not "Chaotic Stupid" to write it off as a lost cause at that point. Its entirely reasonable to think its a needless risk to try to save the village. Let them run away while we go find someone who might actually have soldiers...

[The Capital Gaultier]

Recidiva wrote...

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

Fair enough.  It's just a strategically short-sighted and ill-conceived point of view to the story as a whole.  Unless the whole point of the game is to remain bored, jaded and uninvolved for the entire process.  It's certainly possible.  But just like in reality, for me, unrewarding and a flat out justification for not helping or not being the person that solves problems, but always makes it someone else's responsibility.  No, Morrigan didn't create the problem, but if she's not part of the solution, I want her gone.
The fact is, she's there because Flemeth says so.  Alistair is there because Duncan said so.  You're the only one there because you said so.  And I just resonate more with doing something and trying to do something good with it in order to create a positive ripple effect.
We all know what Morrigan thinks.  What did YOU think?  Would you really have spent several hours trying to burrow through a door that might have a magical component as well as a physical key and been stuck in the windmill at midnight examining a splinter while you were overrun with no backup?

I thought that we should defend the village and kick Dwynn's ass out on the streets with the rest of the villagers. :happy: