885 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

ZeroRate wrote...

I have to say it annoyed me to see the disproval no this, also when you go to pay the girl for the Green Sword and she inists she wants notihng for it and you offer 50 silver sten says there is no honor in ripping her off! she said she didn't want it back or any money! she should be happy with 50s sten you ******!

Sten's big on the value of swords for his own personal reasons.

I always give them 500 silver for it and if Sten's with you, you'll get a positive boost and him saying "An honorable act."

[Herr Uhl]

Recidiva wrote...

I'm approaching it from Morrigan's point of view, not my own.

Fair enough.  It's just a strategically short-sighted and ill-conceived point of view to the story as a whole.  Unless the whole point of the game is to remain bored, jaded and uninvolved for the entire process.  It's certainly possible.  But just like in reality, for me, unrewarding and a flat out justification for not helping or not being the person that solves problems, but always makes it someone else's responsibility.  No, Morrigan didn't create the problem, but if she's not part of the solution, I want her gone.
The fact is, she's there because Flemeth says so.  Alistair is there because Duncan said so.  You're the only one there because you said so.  And I just resonate more with doing something and trying to do something good with it in order to create a positive ripple effect.
We all know what Morrigan thinks.  What did YOU think?  Would you really have spent several hours trying to burrow through a door that might have a magical component as well as a physical key and been stuck in the windmill at midnight examining a splinter while you were overrun with no backup?

You can be jaded without being uninvolved. As you say it, the only way to play the game "right" is to save every kitty.

There are jaded people in real life, interesting fact.

And please stop bickering about the doors breakability, there is nothing wrong with exploring other options.

[mrao]

The Angry One wrote...

mrao wrote...

I viewed her first comment in Lothering about killing Loghain to illustrate that she has no knowledge of such things as politics. Hell, take her to Denerim for the first time and she comments that she has never seen so many people in one place. Honestly, I would not buy her being politically savvy in the slightest given her upbringing. Knowing the purpose for which Flemeth raised her, do you really think she would want Morrigan to be far sighted and strategic?

Why not? Surely a more developed mind would make for a better host. Flemeth certainly seemed to teach her everything else.
Besides, let's assume she doesn't know about politics. Fine. That's why she should keep her damn mouth shut in such affairs. Not knowing about the intricacies of politics doesn't make you stupid, making brash comments on things you know nothing about does.

Everything except social grace, tact, or essentially how to interact with a person that isn't a centuries old abomination from the forest. From her stories, you can tell that she has been heavily conditioned by Flemeth, though she might not recognize it as such. She thinks that she is independent and free thinking, but she really isn't.

[The Capital Gaultier]

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

We can't test it.  It's outside the realm of possibility within DA:O.

Then quit talking about how easy it'd be to break into an unbreakable door.

You can only assume it's unbreakable.  Anyways, it's not my point.  My point is that there is a more direct route to the castle.  You may not know it, and Teagan won't pony up the details, but it does exist.  In every castle.

It's a conclusion based on the available evidence and the nature and role of this door
And even if we assume the PC just *knows* there's a secret passage for every castle, for all we know it's all the way in the middle of the lake. What happens if we find no door in the village? Go for a swim? Just how far will you go to not help the villagers?

"Success! We found the secret passage and opened it! It only took a week!"
"Defending the village and getting the Bann's help would've taken a day you know."
"Shut the hell up!"

*Morrigan approves +10*

That's true, I do assume that the PC knows this and that the rule is not broken.  That is a gross generalization, but it makes sense in the Human and Dwarf Noble origins at the very least.

And personally, I would have probably joined in the defense if time passed during exploration and night fell without my finding a way in.  The similar option in the PC game would have been to explore the village, note that there is no way into the castle, then help out the defense.  I wound up doing exactly that both times.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:19 .

[Vormaerin]

mrao wrote...


In other places such as redcliffe, she is unreasonable. We should at least be given the option, even if she won't listen (depending on your persuade score).

Well, you still get a Morrigan disapproves unless there is a better persuade result than you can get with 4 coercion and 26 Cunning.

[Nosuchluck]

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about eamon, she doesn't give a crap about the villagers, she wants to gather armies and kill Loghan rather than save a bunch of useless peasants then waste time trying to help a dieing man who they probably can't save. Why do you think a bunch of miserable, pathetic and incapable peasants would be able to get you in to the castle? They can't even defend themselves, how are they going to help you?

People are doing this thing where they look at the situation and go "Omg that guy was useful, why didn't morrigan see this? She's so dumb!" They don't realise that the characters at that time don't know that certain characters mean anything. They don't know that there's only two ways to handle a situation. Calling Morrigan stupid because she's not some sort of magical fairy which can tell the future or has the knowledge of the player is ludricious.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The big difference is that the Templars want to kill the mages out of a sense of duty, to protect innocents from possible abominations, while Morrigan want it purely out of spite and pettiness. It makes the first more "lawful" than anything and Morrigan frankly "evil".

I don't really recall how it exactly went in the tower so this will have to be taken with pinch of salt, but i didn't get that impression. Morrigan was talking about these mages being weaklings who allow themselves to be caged and then can't sort out their own problem, and as such not being worth saving. My character countered pointing out she could've been born as one of them instead, and although she then claimed she'd rather commit suicide than live like that she pretty much fell in line, with only minor disapproval hit. I took it as sign she did acknowledge my point, didn't really have a counter to it and she wasn't petty or spiteful enough to keep harping on it when shown a vaild counter-view.

As with all playthroughs, your mileage may vary

[mrao]

Well, you still get a Morrigan disapproves unless there is a better persuade result than you can get with 4 coercion and 26 Cunning.

To my knowledge, you can not. To me this is a rather irritating writing oversight. I like to think that my PC would be smart enough to think of something to say to a dissenting party member other than "shut up, its my decision".

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Recidiva]

I thought that we should defend the village and kick Dwynn's ass out on the streets with the rest of the villagers. :happy:

Good man!

I bribed Dwynn the first time with some coin.  Thereafter I've always intimidated him, Lloyd and Berwick into getting up off their asses and defending the village. 

Taking Zevran was funny when you recommend using the lamp oil to light the monsters ablaze.  He says "That would be good unless...now...you're dealing with FLAMING undead..."

Lloyd and Berwick can die though.  You can loot a dagger off Lloyd.  Makes me sad, because if he lives, he says he felt good about going out and calls you a hero. 

But if you talk him into going out and then talk to Bella again, she'll give you a ton of stuff for free, along with an extra gift of ale for free.

I also avoid talking the priestess into providing Ser Perth with holy symbols.  I can't get a grip on that one ethically.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

There are reasons to try to save the village, but its not "Chaotic Stupid" to write it off as a lost cause at that point. Its entirely reasonable to think its a needless risk to try to save the village. Let them run away while we go find someone who might actually have soldiers...

We need to enter the castle.
Without metagaming we don't know of a way.
Teagan know of a way, but wants our help with the village in exchange.

If you play a "ruthless" character, at this point, I can see only three options :
- Look for a passage yourself.
- Threaten/convince Teagan to help you enter regardless of the village.
- Help the village to secure Teagan's help.

The first two options aren't available in the game. The only available is the third. So either we should have another possibility, or Morrigan shouldn't complain - the only solution that doesn't make her whine (leaving the village, then coming back) is just complete meta-gaming and makes no sense in the in-world perspective.

If we don't have any way to enter the castle but to help Teagan, she should understand that and not cry. 

[Recidiva]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about eamon, she doesn't give a crap about the villagers, she wants to gather armies and kill Loghan rather than save a bunch of useless peasants then waste time trying to help a dieing man who they probably can't save. Why do you think a bunch of miserable, pathetic and incapable peasants would be able to get you in to the castle? They can't even defend themselves, how are they going to help you?

People are doing this thing where they look at the situation and go "Omg that guy was useful, why didn't morrigan see this? She's so dumb!" They don't realise that the characters at that time don't know that certain characters mean anything. They don't know that there's only two ways to handle a situation. Calling Morrigan stupid because she's not some sort of magical fairy which can tell the future or has the knowledge of the player is ludricious.

You march with the army you have, not the army you want.

Very likely, if you've hit Lothering, you're aware that everyone's hurting and needs to be led and inspired.  If she hasn't picked up on the fact that saying "THESE PEOPLE SUCK!" in a loud voice isn't going to make better people magically appear and fight by her side, I could do without her stating the painfully obvious and yet doing nothing to remedy the situation by raising morale or skill or motivation.

[mrao]

People are doing this thing where they look at the situation and go "Omg that guy was useful, why didn't morrigan see this? She's so dumb!" They don't realise that the characters at that time don't know that certain characters mean anything. They don't know that there's only two ways to handle a situation. Calling Morrigan stupid because she's not some sort of magical fairy which can tell the future or has the knowledge of the player is ludricious.

I agree with this. For the most part, I think Morrigan's views are consistant with her upbringing. However, I also tend to play PC's who would be willing to deal with someone like her. She is not easy to be around for most people, I can totally understand another person not wanting to put up with her, especially given the limited options a PC has for reasoning with her.

She speaks her mind whether its smart to do so or not, as she is almost completely tactless. I happen to find her snarky comments amusing. Another might view them as insulting.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[Nosuchluck]

Recidiva wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about eamon, she doesn't give a crap about the villagers, she wants to gather armies and kill Loghan rather than save a bunch of useless peasants then waste time trying to help a dieing man who they probably can't save. Why do you think a bunch of miserable, pathetic and incapable peasants would be able to get you in to the castle? They can't even defend themselves, how are they going to help you?

People are doing this thing where they look at the situation and go "Omg that guy was useful, why didn't morrigan see this? She's so dumb!" They don't realise that the characters at that time don't know that certain characters mean anything. They don't know that there's only two ways to handle a situation. Calling Morrigan stupid because she's not some sort of magical fairy which can tell the future or has the knowledge of the player is ludricious.

You march with the army you have, not the army you want.

Very likely, if you've hit Lothering, you're aware that everyone's hurting and needs to be led and inspired.  If she hasn't picked up on the fact that saying "THESE PEOPLE SUCK!" in a loud voice isn't going to make better people magically appear and fight by her side, I could do without her stating the painfully obvious and yet doing nothing to remedy the situation by raising morale or skill or motivation.

Why would she want useless peasants who can't defend their own town fighting by her side? I sure wouldn't. They'd be a liability more than anything. Let's face it, Undead are coming in hordes from the castle - what does this say about Eamons chance of survivability? If I was the Grey Warden I'd screw off. I'd assume Teagan had obviously been killed or turned in to an undead.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[Akka le Vil]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about eamon, she doesn't give a crap about the villagers, she wants to gather armies and kill Loghan

And why do you think Eamon is all about ?
You really didn't pay attention to anything in the game, did you ? Because the VERY REASON YOU ARE IN REDCLIFFE is that Eamon has an intact army (it couldn't reach Ostagar in time, so it's been untouched by the fight, and no don't ask me why it's not gone back to clear the undeads, that was never adressed in the game) and is the only political support strong enough to challenge Loghain.

[doubledeviant]

Recidiva wrote...

I also avoid talking the priestess into providing Ser Perth with holy symbols.  I can't get a grip on that one ethically.

Agreed.  Despite what the journal entry says, you don't have the option to Persuade/inspire Ser Perth and the knights to fight without the holy symbols.  Rather disappointing.

[The Capital Gaultier]

doubledeviant wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

I also avoid talking the priestess into providing Ser Perth with holy symbols.  I can't get a grip on that one ethically.

Agreed.  Despite what the journal entry says, you don't have the option to Persuade/inspire Ser Perth and the knights to fight without the holy symbols.  Rather disappointing.

The attack on their position was rather weak in my play-throughs.  Keeping my allies out of the fires did make it interesting, though.  No need to be inspired for that!

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:30 .

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

We need to enter the castle.
Without metagaming we don't know of a way.

Without metagaming we don't actually know we need to enter the castle at that point   I forgot but the whole Landsmeet deal does indeed only pop up after the Arl is revived. Until then it does seem equally feasible to just leave the apparently useless Redcliffe to its fate and try to get the people you actually have treaties with on your side, then try to face the archdemon without getting tangled in the whole Loghain business at all -- Loghain has his hands full trying to get the banns in line and as such isn't much of a factor.

[Nosuchluck]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

Morrigan doesn't give a crap about eamon, she doesn't give a crap about the villagers, she wants to gather armies and kill Loghan

And why do you think Eamon is all about ?
You really didn't pay attention to anything in the game, did you ? Because the VERY REASON YOU ARE IN REDCLIFFE is that Eamon has an intact army (it couldn't reach Ostagar in time, so it's been untouched by the fight, and no don't ask me why it's not gone back to clear the undeads, that was never adressed in the game) and is the only political support strong enough to challenge Loghain.

You're doing the magical future seeing fairy. Eamon is probably dead or undead. How is a dead man going to lead an army? If he's not dead then he's dieing of some mysterious illness which can only be cured by finding an artifact which no one thinks actually exists. Morrigan doesn't know that he's still alive. I'd actually say it's safe to assume that he's dead and otherwise useless to your cause.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

I don't really recall how it exactly went in the tower so this will have to be taken with pinch of salt, but i didn't get that impression. Morrigan was talking about these mages being weaklings who allow themselves to be caged and then can't sort out their own problem, and as such not being worth saving. My character countered pointing out she could've been born as one of them instead, and although she then claimed she'd rather commit suicide than live like that she pretty much fell in line, with only minor disapproval hit. I took it as sign she did acknowledge my point, didn't really have a counter to it and she wasn't petty or spiteful enough to keep harping on it when shown a vaild counter-view.

As with all playthroughs, your mileage may vary

The approval penalty is the same regardless of what you say to her. She simply wants them to die, period, even though they could be useful against darkspawns.

It just isn't intelligent at all. She pretend that using others for your own end is the smart thing to do, and she is proud of having done so.
Now, you try to get these mages for yourself, and she dislikes it. Just shows she isn't able to think straight for two minutes in a row

[Nosuchluck]

I find it perfectly reasonable for Morrigan to hate mages who willingly work with Templars who've been hunting her throughout her childhood and trying to murder her and her mother. While the mages might not actually have any choice in being in the tower, Morrigan doesn't see it like that.  She thinks they're weaklings unable to free themselves.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Alistair is consistent and becomes mad at things that are deserving.
Morrigan is just capricious and whimsical, in denial and very inconsistent. THAT makes her irritating.

Well then, blame the scenarists for making Redcliffe a requirement for the main quest. We're supposed to NEED the Arl to oppose Loghain, so b*tching about actually advancing our interests when she's always all about "we should only bother with our interests" is just dumb - which is precisely a perfect example of her inconsistancies.

Morrigan is not inconsistent (Well, there are a few places I thought she'd grumble and she didn't) and its not nearly as difficult as you make out to keep her content.  Unless you are looking to make her your bestest friend or something, none of her muttering complaints are significant.  And if you are trying to befriend her, then its reasonable that you have to put a lot of effort into it.   She's not expecting friendship and doesn't have any experience of it.

You are not complaining about Morrigan's character.   You are complaining that her suggestions aren't allowed within the context of the video game.  Video games have to have limits on what you can do.   I suppose a player can be mad if the characters don't exactly obey the plot, but that's a limitation of game design, not a flaw in the character..    In character, Eamon is not especially necessary.  He just gets picked because Alistair knows him.   There's no (non meta gaming) reason why we couldn't try another Arl who isn't last seen deathly ill inside a monster infested castle and his army scatttered to the four winds on a quest.

[Akka le Vil]

Nosuchluck wrote...

You're doing the magical future seeing fairy. Eamon is probably dead or undead. How is a dead man going to lead an army? If he's not dead then he's dieing of some mysterious illness which can only be cured by finding an artifact which no one thinks actually exists. Morrigan doesn't know that he's still alive. I'd actually say it's safe to assume that he's dead and otherwise useless to your cause.

No, I'm just going to explore the few options I have. I need to take on Loghain, and I need to gather allies. I AM at Redcliffe, and Eamon is dying. It's logically now or never, and I should as well try to get him out, as I don't really have the luxury of thinking "ah well, too bad, I'll come back later".
If you have only one option to challenge Loghain, you're not really having a choice and even if it's very probable that Eamon is dead, you need to investigate to know for sure.

But yes, this part should have had better writing - like "some guy escaped the dungeons and said that when he left, the Arl was still alive" or something, so that it feels less of wishful thinking and more of "we really don't have time to waste".

[doubledeviant]

Nosuchluck wrote...

I find it perfectly reasonable for Morrigan to hate mages who willingly work with Templars who've been hunting her throughout her childhood and trying to murder her and her mother. While the mages might not actually have any choice in being in the tower, Morrigan doesn't see it like that.  She thinks they're weaklings unable to free themselves.

You do realize that cleansing the tower allies oneself with the Templars?

[Recidiva]

I agree with this. For the most part, I think Morrigan's views are consistant with her upbringing. However, I also tend to play PC's who would be willing to deal with someone like her. She is not easy to be around for most people, I can totally understand another person not wanting to put up with her, especially given the limited options a PC has for reasoning with her.

She speaks her mind whether its smart to do so or not, as she is almost completely tactless. I happen to find her snarky comments amusing. Another might view them as insulting.

To me, as a player, they're hilarious.

To my character, as the leader of the Grey Wardens, they're a nuisance and counterproductive to my strategy.

[Nosuchluck]

doubledeviant wrote...

Nosuchluck wrote...

I find it perfectly reasonable for Morrigan to hate mages who willingly work with Templars who've been hunting her throughout her childhood and trying to murder her and her mother. While the mages might not actually have any choice in being in the tower, Morrigan doesn't see it like that.  She thinks they're weaklings unable to free themselves.

You do realize that cleansing the tower allies oneself with the Templars?

I was speaking about killing Wynne.