885 réponses à ce sujet

[mrao]

Akka le Vil wrote...

that he's still alive. I'd actually say it's safe to assume that he's dead and otherwise useless to your cause.
No, I'm just going to explore the few options I have. I need to take on Loghain, and I need to gather allies. I AM at Redcliffe, and Eamon is dying. It's logically now or never, and I should as well try to get him out, as I don't really have the luxury of thinking "ah well, too bad, I'll come back later".

Given what your characters know at the time, one could see that such an endeavor would be a lost cause. Arl Eamon is a dying man stuck inside a castle that you have just been told is full of undead. Morrigan and Sten saying that saving redcliffe would be a waste of time makes sense with what limited knowledge your party has on the subject outside of metagaming.

Modifié par mrao, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Recidiva]

Why would she want useless peasants who can't defend their own town fighting by her side? I sure wouldn't. They'd be a liability more than anything. Let's face it, Undead are coming in hordes from the castle - what does this say about Eamons chance of survivability? If I was the Grey Warden I'd screw off. I'd assume Teagan had obviously been killed or turned in to an undead.

Unless you always play a human noble...you start the game as a useless peasant.
Hell, Morrigan is not only a useless peasant of no royal lineage, but a mouthy one who already knows that the templars could nab her at any second yet simply CANNOT keep her damned trap shut inside a damned chantry of all places.
What part of "we can't defend ourselves because all our strongers warriors have been turned into undead who turn against us in the middle of the night and their ranks grow because of it" makes you think they had much of a chance to begin with?  This was a strong place with powerful knights.  Who are now attacking their own kin, the only thing left are women and children and a few militia.
Even rusty or bent tools can be polished up and put to some use, and that's your job.  Don't like it?  Please go home and shut the hell up.

[doubledeviant]

mrao wrote...

Given what your characters know at the time, one could see that such an endeavor would be a lost cause. Arl Eamon is a dying man stuck inside a castle that you have just been told is full of undead.

But Teagan is not a lost cause, and his support (and his continued drawing of breath) requires saving Redcliffe.

[Matthew Young CT]

Akka le Vil wrote...

No, I'm just going to explore the few options I have. I need to take on Loghain,

Nope!

and I need to gather allies.

Yes. This is what she wants you to be doing, instead of trying to help some almost certainly dead friend of Alistair's.

If you have only one option to challenge Loghain, you're not really having a choice and even if it's very probable that Eamon is dead, you need to investigate to know for sure.

Challenging Loghain is Eamon's idea. From the character's point of view you should be ignoring Eamon and collecting your allies to take on the blight.

[Elanareon]

Why waste time on a village when the man you need is sick already inside an undead infested castle who kills everyone in sight? For all you know everyone inside the castle is already dead. Why waste time on a trivila village compared to the blight, which is the main goal of grey wardens in the first place?

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The approval penalty is the same regardless of what you say to her. She simply wants them to die, period, even though they could be useful against darkspawns.

It just isn't intelligent at all. She pretend that using others for your own end is the smart thing to do, and she is proud of having done so.
Now, you try to get these mages for yourself, and she dislikes it. Just shows she isn't able to think straight for two minutes in a row

Well, she simply disagrees with you on actual utility these mages can provide. And tbh given they do appear completely unable to take care of their problems (yes yes it is game scenario issue but that's breaking the 4th wall)  it's not very hard to see it her way.

[Recidiva]

You're doing the magical future seeing fairy. Eamon is probably dead or undead. How is a dead man going to lead an army? If he's not dead then he's dieing of some mysterious illness which can only be cured by finding an artifact which no one thinks actually exists. Morrigan doesn't know that he's still alive. I'd actually say it's safe to assume that he's dead and otherwise useless to your cause.

Even if that is the case, Redcliffe is a working infrastructure facility that you could use.  Even if Eamon is dead, if you clean it out and intimidate or persuade people into fealty.  Hell, you're sleeping on the cold ground, wouldn't a whole castle be a nicer resting spot, since the previous owner so tragically isn't owning it any more?

In war, it's a very bad idea to leave an infestation of whatever the hell it is...at your back, when you could clean the place out and use it as a base.

If Eamon's dead, fine.  Alistair knows his way around and it's a damned castle.  Useful.

I don't see the benefit to leaving a horde of self-replicating undead to spill out everywhere and take away human soldiers that could be assisting me to fight the darkspawn, and then grow into ANOTHER army I have to defeat because I ignored it when it was confined to one building.

[Nosuchluck]

Recidiva wrote...

Why would she want useless peasants who can't defend their own town fighting by her side? I sure wouldn't. They'd be a liability more than anything. Let's face it, Undead are coming in hordes from the castle - what does this say about Eamons chance of survivability? If I was the Grey Warden I'd screw off. I'd assume Teagan had obviously been killed or turned in to an undead.

Unless you always play a human noble...you start the game as a useless peasant.
Hell, Morrigan is not only a useless peasant of no royal lineage, but a mouthy one who already knows that the templars could nab her at any second yet simply CANNOT keep her damned trap shut inside a damned chantry of all places.
What part of "we can't defend ourselves because all our strongers warriors have been turned into undead who turn against us in the middle of the night and their ranks grow because of it" makes you think they had much of a chance to begin with?  This was a strong place with powerful knights.  Who are now attacking their own kin, the only thing left are women and children and a few militia.
Even rusty or bent tools can be polished up and put to some use, and that's your job.  Don't like it?  Please go home and shut the hell up.

Why would women and children be useful to a Grey Warden? Your job is to save the country, not a town.

[Vormaerin]

Akka le Vil wrote...
But yes, this part should have had better writing - like "some guy escaped the dungeons and said that when he left, the Arl was still alive" or something, so that it feels less of wishful thinking and more of "we really don't have time to waste".

And that is the crux of the matter.   There are other Arls.    Fighting a desperate battle against uncertain odds to save a man who has been deathly ill for weeks and inside a monster infested castle for days is entirely reckless.   There is no rational expectation that Eamon is alive and we already know his knights are scattered to the four winds anyway.

Outside of game considerations, there is no reason we could not approach any of those Arls that we later persuade at the Landsmeet.   The only thing that brings us to Eamon is that Alistair knows him.    We are, essentially, staying to defend the village for the hell of it, not because its our only option.

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Hell, Morrigan is not only a useless peasant of no royal lineage, but a mouthy one who already knows that the templars could nab her at any second yet simply CANNOT keep her damned trap shut inside a damned chantry of all places.

Oh believe me, if just one out of every ten of these peasants was as capable of hurling magic at the enemies as Morrigan is, my character would be gladly trying to save their villages. Or more practically, just trying to get these talented people out of there and tagging along with her.

[Akka le Vil]

Vormaerin wrote...

Morrigan is not inconsistent

Oh God yes she is.
Actually, what keeps me wondering about her being in fact a well-written (if unsufferable) character, is precisely because she's SO inconsistent that it becomes rather consistent in itself.

She's just so often contradicting herself that it looks more like emotionnal baggage consciously being written by David than accidental inconsistencies.

She's constantly talking about free will, but each time you don't agree and have a will by yourself, "Morrigan disapproves".
She always says that emotions are a weakness, but if you ever question the only person she loves (Flemeth) she have large approval penalties. Same if you aren't "nice" with her - and even more if you're nice.
She always go on independance and self-sufficient, but she's just plain NEEDY, and you get MASSIVE penalties if you ever leave her hanging - despite it being exactly what she asked for. And I say "massive", as in -15 to -20.

The list is endless. I'm playing a ruthless and efficient guy, nearly the exact same person than Morrigan describe as "perfect", and I take huge approval hits all the time when I'm not meta-gaming. You have to slither between her contradictions to actually makes her like you.

You are not complaining about Morrigan's character.   You are complaining that her suggestions aren't allowed within the context of the video game.  Video games have to have limits on what you can do.   I suppose a player can be mad if the characters don't exactly obey the plot, but that's a limitation of game design, not a flaw in the character..

I'm irritated by both. 
If the game doesn't make a way one NPC suggest, you shouldn't get penalties because you can't follow this way. That's just design. If Morrigan doesn't want us to help the villagers, fine, but when playing, I don't have really any other options, so it's a bit of a bad trick to actually make her disapproves something you can't help. The only other option being completely counter-intuitive and meta-gaming, which is an even more glaring design flaw.
And Morrigan is really some character I'd like to kill - I found her rather amusing the first playthrough, but I didn't bring her a lot in the game as I was playing the nice guy and romancing Leli. I'm on my second playthrough here, and trying the "ruthless" one, and as such romancing her. It really made me realize how stupid and disgusting she is. I'm just doing it out of a completionist need, now, because she's certainly the most irritating character I've faced since a long time.

In character, Eamon is not especially necessary.  He just gets picked because Alistair knows him.   There's no (non meta gaming) reason why we couldn't try another Arl who isn't last seen deathly ill inside a monster infested castle and his army scatttered to the four winds on a quest.

Actually, Eamon is necessary not because of Alistair specifically, but because he's said several time as the only noble having enough importance and support to challenge Loghain directly. So there IS some compelling in-world reasons to stick with him.

[doubledeviant]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Challenging Loghain is Eamon's idea. From the character's point of view you should be ignoring Eamon and collecting your allies to take on the blight.

Loghain has the Ferelden army if he successfully declares himself Regent.  Loghain does not support the Grey Wardens.  You need the Ferelden army.  You need to replace Loghain with someone who does support the Grey Wardens.

Plus, challenging Loghain is Alistair's idea.

[Matthew Young CT]

Unless you always play a human noble...you start the game as a useless peasant.

Start, yes. And if you stayed that way Morrigan wouldn't have much use for you

Hell, Morrigan is not only a useless peasant

Actually she's a mage. Thus not useless at all.

of no royal lineage,

Do you reeeeeally think Morrigan cares about nobility and all that?

but a mouthy one who already knows that the templars could nab her at any second yet simply CANNOT keep her damned trap shut inside a damned chantry of all places.

Whether you consider her a cloistered character or not, either way she would not be afraid of templars.

Incidentally I'm surprised so many people take what Morrigan says to you about her past and Flemeth at face value.

[mrao]

doubledeviant wrote...

mrao wrote...

Given what your characters know at the time, one could see that such an endeavor would be a lost cause. Arl Eamon is a dying man stuck inside a castle that you have just been told is full of undead.

But Teagan is not a lost cause, and his support (and his continued drawing of breath) requires saving Redcliffe.

Right, but how are they supposed to know that spending time saving the village to save Teagan is more valuable than say, using that time to secure the aid of the dwarves? You have no idea what kind of military support Teagan can offer. For all you know, most of the soldiers/militia will die in the attack, or are already dead in the castle. Eamons knights are gone looking for the ashes.

[Akka le Vil]

tmp7704 wrote...

Well, she simply disagrees with you on actual utility these mages can provide. And tbh given they do appear completely unable to take care of their problems (yes yes it is game scenario issue but that's breaking the 4th wall)  it's not very hard to see it her way.

Actually, their "problems" are abominations, and considering her mother is one and she knows how powerful she is... That's not even a pretext

[Akka le Vil]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Nope!

Yes. This is what she wants you to be doing, instead of trying to help some almost certainly dead friend of Alistair's.

Challenging Loghain is Eamon's idea. From the character's point of view you should be ignoring Eamon and collecting your allies to take on the blight.

Yes I need to take on Loghain. I absolutely need the whole Ferelden's military power in addition to the three other armies I may bring, and on top of that remember that Grey Warden are wanted by his government and he killed them with half the army already, so taking on darkspawns with his own army in my back would be a bad, bad move.

You really didn't bother to read the actual in-game story, I see.

[Nosuchluck]

doubledeviant wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Challenging Loghain is Eamon's idea. From the character's point of view you should be ignoring Eamon and collecting your allies to take on the blight.

Loghain has the Ferelden army if he successfully declares himself Regent.  Loghain does not support the Grey Wardens.  You need the Ferelden army.  You need to replace Loghain with someone who does support the Grey Wardens.

Plus, challenging Loghain is Alistair's idea.

You can just walk in and demand a duel from Loghan it would seem. I don't understand why I can't just conscript him to the Grey Warden's the first time I see him, it can't be refused and if he did he'd lose all his support. Grey Warden's are respected throughout the country, even when there's a bounty on your head practically no one acts on it.
I really do think the Landsmeet was an utter waste of time. I don't get the point of gathering all that support when at the end of the day you can just win through a duel.

****it I could just get Zevran to slit Loghans throat while he slept

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[Vormaerin]

Recidiva wrote...

Even if that is the case, Redcliffe is a working infrastructure facility that you could use.  Even if Eamon is dead, if you clean it out and intimidate or persuade people into fealty.  Hell, you're sleeping on the cold ground, wouldn't a whole castle be a nicer resting spot, since the previous owner so tragically isn't owning it any more?

This assumes that you actually have the means to win...  You don't know the strength of the enemy, you don't know the nature of the enemy, you don't know the source of the enemy.   You are gambling.....without any information on the odds....that your small group will be enough to turn the tide.    For what?  To save some villagers too stupid to run away like they should have?

Again... the OP's position is that Morrigan is actively stupid for being annoyed at this decision.  No one is saying there is no reason to defend the village.   We are saying there are solid, rational reasons to think its better not to.   As Morrigan does.  

[Taerda]

Akka le Vil wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Well, she simply disagrees with you on actual utility these mages can provide. And tbh given they do appear completely unable to take care of their problems (yes yes it is game scenario issue but that's breaking the 4th wall)  it's not very hard to see it her way.

Actually, their "problems" are abominations, and considering her mother is one and she knows how powerful she is... That's not even a pretext

The trouble here (at least on my first play through) was that I, as a player was not introduced to Flemish stories until after the Broken Tower Arc when Lilliana had told me the tales in camp. Most likely my in-game noble character would have heard and known those stories before hand, but me as a player would not be able to utilize this knowledge at the time.

[doubledeviant]

mrao wrote...

Right, but how are they supposed to know that spending time saving the village to save Teagan is more valuable than say, using that time to secure the aid of the dwarves? You have no idea what kind of military support Teagan can offer. For all you know, most of the soldiers/militia will die in the attack, or are already dead in the castle. Eamons knights are gone looking for the ashes.

First, it'll only take a day to save the village. 

Second, Teagan is a Bann, and a voice against Loghain, at the very least.

[tmp7704]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually, their "problems" are abominations, and considering her mother is one and she knows how powerful she is... That's not even a pretext

I don't mean just the culmination of the problem; the whole buildup to it with one guy with agenda being able to pretty much bring the Circle to brink of collapse largely unchecked... it was really something that made me wonder about just how inept and detached from reality these guys were. And that's with giving them benefit of doubt (sort of) and presuming stupidity rather than malice on their part.

[Herr Uhl]

Vormaerin wrote...
For what?  To save some villagers too stupid to run away like they should have?

To be fair, the ones that tried that got killed in the process.

[Akka le Vil]

Nosuchluck wrote...

You can just walk in and demand a duel from Loghan it would seem. I don't understand why I can't just conscript him to the Grey Warden's the first time I see him, it can't be refused and if he did he'd lose all his support.

/facepalm

[cglasgow]

There's also that Morrigan starts out having very little sense of scale: she even says that she's never been in anything but a village before, and has no idea what a city is like.
You see this when her first suggestion in Lothering is simply to go after Loghain and kill him. To Morrigan, this idea makes perfect sense -- she has only the vaguest conception of any government or organization larger than 'village militia' or 'Chasind tribal warband'. The chief in your way? Call him out and zap him. Congrats, you're a chief.
This entirely does not work when you're talking about the ruler of a nation with armies of thousands living in a castle in a very large city, but I just used about three or four things in that sentence that Morrigan has no real conception of until much later in the game.
Her high native intelligence and excellent diction (because she learned how to talk from only Flemeth, who was circulating in noble circles long long ago) disguises the fact that Morrigan starts out the game a seriously damn ignorant Chasind barbarian. This is part of why her strategic judgement is so inconsistent... its entirely consistent, really, its just entirely wrong. Morrigan might be a genius mage, but get someone else to do your political and logistical planning, she's just not any good at it, because she's never remotely learned how.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[slackbheep]

I still think saving Redcliffe has more to do with appeasing Alistair than anything else, and was why I bothered in my own play through, there was no real reason to want to save them outside it being the "right" thing to do. It's obvious from interactions that their knights are scattered hunting for the Urn and that the castle soldiers are mostly dead. As far as an ally, outside of possible political leverage against Logaine I didn't expect much by the way of support from Redcliffe.