631 réponses à ce sujet

[Chrisimo]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.

We would have chosen the red option in our head.

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...
It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

This is a good point.

the nature of the indoc attack. Shep was hallucinating already due to the fact he was bleeding out and dying after the destroyer beam. Without indoc, sheps mind is still racing with thoughts of victory and being able to create something peacefull for his friends and loved ones. his mind cannot deal with hes bodies defeat and he is hallucinating.

at the same time in this weakened and comprimised state, and close proximty to harby and reaper tech and having the eyes of the repers focused on shep now completely, the indoc attempt is able to take hold.

the Choice at the end is you as shepard deciding the results of that mind war. he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

It is a possibility - but if this was intended, it could have been executed better. This theory is a lot better than the real endings we got, but I believe it was originally planned to be part of a bigger ending (if it was planned at all) and they decided to take out the rest and modify this so that it could be the final ending.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...



Why, pray tell, would they show a cutscene about "victory over the reapers" if you have not yet achieved that victory. If indoctrination is true, Stargazer ruins the narrative flow by throwing the conclusion in your face before actually reaching it. That makes no sense.

its in the future and shep is long gone no matter what happens at the end or after the game ends.

and by "one more story" you can have mutiple post ending dlc's and the stagazers story never needs chaging cause it was written to be vague.

But you see Alliance ships in the debree around the Citadel. You the battle on Earth end when the Crucible activates. The scene isn't in the future, its happening right then.

its happening in sheps mind.

The why is it shown in the ending where Shepard breaks free of indoctrination?

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

I never said Starchild was or wasn't lying. But the way you present it is this:

If not Indoc., Starchild lied because we lived, therefore Shep we see at the end of Good ending is Shep who crashed to Earth miraculously from Citadel after destroying it.

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.

It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

You must have failed basic logic and basic english. That's about the only thing I can come up with.

How can you not get this? I am pointing out Starchild lying as a plothole in the original ending that is explained via the Indoctrination ending- but not explained if the endings are real.

He hallucinates what he does because his mind wants everyone he loves to be safe. How do you explain how his LI is on the Normandy when 5 minutes earlier she was hit by a laser blast from Harbinger?

As for why he doesn't immediately wake up... 

HARBINGER JUST HIT HIM WITH A ****ING LASER BLAST! That kinda hurts. He's kinda unconcious. He's not super-human, just Shepard. It takes him a bit to recover from it.

Holy crap - you're dumb. You said starchild is lying because you still live after the red option - when we never see the red option if Shep still lives. You also are acting like the hallucination period was a 5-10 minute affair. Which, if you believe it to have happened, it didn't. If you do believe the time is literal, then the 3 minutes to imagine the Normandy part is all he needs to wake up? come on man.

O K.

I'm done.

It's not that you can't follow the theory, it's that you can't understand basic logic.

Starchild is lying if the endings are real. Period.

And yet somehow you can't see that that's a plothole. 

Just smh.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

That is bad writing one way or the other, and it doesnt make sense. If indoctrination theory is true, you wouldnt do Stargazer because it would break the feeling of threat from the reapers before actually finishing the conflict with them. If the reapers are still attacking the stargazer scene completely nullifies any future conflict against them and ruins the emotional tie to the conflict.

If you are an author and indoctrination is your goal,  you dont do Stargazer. Its that simple imo.

I agree with this.

If the stargazer scene is in the future, after Shepard wakes up and beats the Reapers, then WHY NOT SHOW THAT?

Why would Bioware cut the story from Shepard waking up to the Reapers being beaten, without actually showing the Reapers being beaten?

And it makes no sense whatsoever for it to be shown if Shepard fails to beat indoctrination.

dlc bro... they will have more story. and that story will still end in reapers loosing, but for those who choose not to buy the dlc, then stargazer wraps it for you instead of being forced into dlc.. its an option

[MasterMenace]

You know. There is 2 words that will solve this.

Right when the beam hits in front of Shepard, you hear this:

"ASSUMING CONTROL"

OH snap!

[Rafe34]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
he why is it shown in the ending where Shepard breaks free of indoctrination?

It's still in his mind until he wakes up.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...



Why, pray tell, would they show a cutscene about "victory over the reapers" if you have not yet achieved that victory. If indoctrination is true, Stargazer ruins the narrative flow by throwing the conclusion in your face before actually reaching it. That makes no sense.

its in the future and shep is long gone no matter what happens at the end or after the game ends.

and by "one more story" you can have mutiple post ending dlc's and the stagazers story never needs chaging cause it was written to be vague.

But you see Alliance ships in the debree around the Citadel. You the battle on Earth end when the Crucible activates. The scene isn't in the future, its happening right then.

its happening in sheps mind.

Happening in his mind or not, Shep being shown alive is a different area from where he got lazed. So unless he sleep-indoctrinates, it doesn't make sense.

[RunAway ItzJack]

SirJeal wrote...

Either that, or Shepard beat their indoctrination by "destroying" them in his mind... so when he wakes up, he isn't indoctrinated.

That's what I was thinking. Since Shepard has such a strong will... And is apparently technically a cyborg now, Harby may have had to try a different approach to indoctrination. Tempt Shepard into willingly serving the reapers' purpose and win it inside his head. That's why destroy is labeled renegade in his mind. 

[Zyrious]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

If Shepard is waking up where he fell, why is there rubble everywhere?

The area where Harbinger shoots at you is devoid of rubble - it is barren, scorched ground. Yet when Shepard wakes up he is on, and surrounded by, massive heaps of rubble that are very obviously London buildings.

It doesn't make sense in the real ending or the indoctrination ending. In both cases, it is a plothole. I'm not saying it disproves the indoctrination theory, but at the same time it doesn't prove it either.

plot device to show you hes on earth.. therefore indoc theory.

Thats not proof of the indoctrination theory.

The theory states that Shepard wakes where he fell. If this were true, then why would Bioware show him waking up in an entirely different area of London?

its artistic licence. they put the london building bricks right on top of them so you see them and say "oh hes on earth" they are trying to help you and you just are not letting them

If it's artistic license, you could say that just as easily for the endings as is. CGI progammer see's "Easter Egg: Shepard lives, buried in rubble, dont see face or arms, just armor, takes breath". CGI uses stereotypical rubble. The end. No hints, no clues, just a ending for those who wanted shepard to live, following the old 80's style of "wait, he's still alive!" easter egg, as tweeted by a dev.

Modifié par Zyrious, 15 mars 2012 - 12:23 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Rafe34 wrote...

I'm done.

It's not that you can't follow the theory, it's that you can't understand basic logic.

Starchild is lying if the endings are real. Period.

And yet somehow you can't see that that's a plothole. 

Just smh.

Its true. this guy can dissagre but not before he even gets what hes dissagreing with straight.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

[hex23]

viperabyss wrote...

I agree that scene is entirely out of place. I'm not sure how 20 people from the Normandy can somehow sustain a colony for hundreds of years. The lack of Alien information is also odd, since a lot of the crews that survived the Normandy Crash would've been alien. It is also possible that BW simply neglected that part. After all, the entire sequence was about 15 seconds long.  

However, just because it is out of place, we cannot discount it. Just because a puzzle piece doesn't fit in for the puzzle you're building, does it mean you can just throw it away and pretend it doesn't count?

A puzzle piece? The entire ending sequence doesn't make sense. The Star Gazer scene is just the topic of discussion. Or it was when I said that.

[agathokakological]

Definitely proof for indoctrination theory. If nothing else, headcanon.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

dlc bro... they will have more story. and that story will still end in reapers loosing, but for those who choose not to buy the dlc, then stargazer wraps it for you instead of being forced into dlc.. its an option

Not everyone can easily access DLC.

Do you honestly think that Bioware - a company built on making story-based games - would ship ME3 without and ending, and then charge extra for the true ending despite not all the people who bought ME3 being able to access it?

Do you not see the staggering leap of logic there?

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

You stop using your logic here! Stop it! It was indoctrination! Who cares if that makes it a way worse ending and makes no sense! Stop it!

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

That is bad writing one way or the other, and it doesnt make sense. If indoctrination theory is true, you wouldnt do Stargazer because it would break the feeling of threat from the reapers before actually finishing the conflict with them. If the reapers are still attacking the stargazer scene completely nullifies any future conflict against them and ruins the emotional tie to the conflict.

If you are an author and indoctrination is your goal,  you dont do Stargazer. Its that simple imo.

I agree with this.

If the stargazer scene is in the future, after Shepard wakes up and beats the Reapers, then WHY NOT SHOW THAT?

Why would Bioware cut the story from Shepard waking up to the Reapers being beaten, without actually showing the Reapers being beaten?

And it makes no sense whatsoever for it to be shown if Shepard fails to beat indoctrination.

dlc bro... they will have more story. and that story will still end in reapers loosing, but for those who choose not to buy the dlc, then stargazer wraps it for you instead of being forced into dlc.. its an option

What makes more sense if the theory is true:

-Showing Shepard waking up on the same patch of Earth as before, bathed in a blue glow from the Conduit so its clear he's in the same spot

-Showing Shepard waking up somewhere entirely different in London

If Bioware was trying to hint that this theory is true, its blatantly obvious they'd go for the first option.

[Tiax Rules All]

Zyrious wrote...

If it's artistic license, you could say that just as easily for the endings as is. CGI progammer see's "Easter Egg: Shepard lives, buried in rubble, dont see face or arms, just armor, takes breath". CGI uses stereotypical rubble. The end. No hints, no clues, just a ending for those who wanted shepard to live, following the old 80's style of "wait, he's still alive!" easter egg, as tweeted by a dev.

you COULD see it a different way. but is that way better?

i would rather choose the fully functional and plausable indoc theory then to just stay bitter and cling to "bad writing" and "bad CGI programming"   there is no proof in 3 games that would even suggest its possible for bioware to mess up the ending as badly as you suggest.

if their is blame to be had then its bioware for making indoc a little to hard to come up with on your own. a little to ambigous, but if it wasn't then nobody would fall for indoctrination and you really would have one ending.

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[Bigdoser]

Someone posted this in another topic check out shepard's eyes when you pick control/synth.

Here is an image of Sythesis and Control endings.
In both cases you notice the blue dots on the retinas that always happens when somebody is indoctrinated.

http://imgur.com/0sSDD

[Rafe34]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

Not if their plan all along was to patch the game with the real ending at a later date.

This has been discussed so many times. You people keep coming on here and saying that we're saying that this is all we are going to get. No. We're saying that BW will release a DLC/patch that gives us the real ending.

[MasterMenace]

This is what should have happened:

Right when the beam hits you and it flashes white, your hear this and it sends chills down your spine:

"ASSUMING CONTROL"...

The the rest of the ending plays out normally excluding grandpa and kid.

Then after picking destroy, you wake up in the rubble where you get blasted.

Shepard says:

"I'm assuming control now... *cracks knuckles*..."

.....

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

That is bad writing one way or the other, and it doesnt make sense. If indoctrination theory is true, you wouldnt do Stargazer because it would break the feeling of threat from the reapers before actually finishing the conflict with them. If the reapers are still attacking the stargazer scene completely nullifies any future conflict against them and ruins the emotional tie to the conflict.

If you are an author and indoctrination is your goal,  you dont do Stargazer. Its that simple imo.

I agree with this.

If the stargazer scene is in the future, after Shepard wakes up and beats the Reapers, then WHY NOT SHOW THAT?

Why would Bioware cut the story from Shepard waking up to the Reapers being beaten, without actually showing the Reapers being beaten?

And it makes no sense whatsoever for it to be shown if Shepard fails to beat indoctrination.

dlc bro... they will have more story. and that story will still end in reapers loosing, but for those who choose not to buy the dlc, then stargazer wraps it for you instead of being forced into dlc.. its an option

What makes more sense if the theory is true:

-Showing Shepard waking up on the same patch of Earth as before, bathed in a blue glow from the Conduit so its clear he's in the same spot

-Showing Shepard waking up somewhere entirely different in London

If Bioware was trying to hint that this theory is true, its blatantly obvious they'd go for the first option.

they are assuming their audience is mature and smart enough to get it as is in its vague way.

guess they were wrong

guess they really did need the dragon age text slideshow to spell it all out

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 12:29 .

[Smiley556]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

You stop using your logic here! Stop it! It was indoctrination! Who cares if that makes it a way worse ending and makes no sense! Stop it!

Man, your first post in this thread made me have such high hopes of you. I actually thought we would have someone present us with a mature discussion about this subject. There goes that illusion...

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

That is bad writing one way or the other, and it doesnt make sense. If indoctrination theory is true, you wouldnt do Stargazer because it would break the feeling of threat from the reapers before actually finishing the conflict with them. If the reapers are still attacking the stargazer scene completely nullifies any future conflict against them and ruins the emotional tie to the conflict.

If you are an author and indoctrination is your goal,  you dont do Stargazer. Its that simple imo.

I agree with this.

If the stargazer scene is in the future, after Shepard wakes up and beats the Reapers, then WHY NOT SHOW THAT?

Why would Bioware cut the story from Shepard waking up to the Reapers being beaten, without actually showing the Reapers being beaten?

And it makes no sense whatsoever for it to be shown if Shepard fails to beat indoctrination.

dlc bro... they will have more story. and that story will still end in reapers loosing, but for those who choose not to buy the dlc, then stargazer wraps it for you instead of being forced into dlc.. its an option

What makes more sense if the theory is true:

-Showing Shepard waking up on the same patch of Earth as before, bathed in a blue glow from the Conduit so its clear he's in the same spot

-Showing Shepard waking up somewhere entirely different in London

If Bioware was trying to hint that this theory is true, its blatantly obvious they'd go for the first option.

they are assuming their audience is mature and smart enough to get it as is in its vague way.

guess they were wrong

guess they really did need the dragon age text slideshow to spell it all out

ROFL...so accepting your self-made plotholes is mature and they need to just "get it", but just taking the game for what it is, makes people immature? HAHAHAHAHA.

[Tiax Rules All]

Rafe34 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

Not if their plan all along was to patch the game with the real ending at a later date.

This has been discussed so many times. You people keep coming on here and saying that we're saying that this is all we are going to get. No. We're saying that BW will release a DLC/patch that gives us the real ending.

this, so totally this

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...
he blows up the citadel in his mind, indoc is defeated and now his mind continues to dream the rest of the happy thoughts of victory and peace.

then he wakes up into the dark, mature and gritty world of ME again

That would be the worst possible ending.

Bioware shows the player a cutscene of the Reapers being beaten, but then it actually turns out that instead of beating the Reapers, Shepard was imagining. 

Then, before we actually get a chance to finish the story, the credits roll.

I'm sorry, but thats even worse than what we got.

You stop using your logic here! Stop it! It was indoctrination! Who cares if that makes it a way worse ending and makes no sense! Stop it!

Man, your first post in this thread made me have such high hopes of you. I actually thought we would have someone present us with a mature discussion about this subject. There goes that illusion...

Star Gazer ending and Shep "waking up" no where near the beam or where the laser was shot kills indoc. Sorry.