631 réponses à ce sujet

[hex23]

And if we're going with the "it's all in Shepard's mind" theory, him being willing to destroy the Mass Relays to achieve his goal isn't exactly surprising. He already destroyed one and that was just to delay the Reapers.

Then again if he actually did destroy them all that presents the problem of "how did the surrounding planets survive?", because "Arrival" showed us it's impossible.

[Candidate 88766]

hex23 wrote...

UnevenElefant5 wrote...

The thing with the indoctrination theory is that if they really wanted to make shepard choose the options they set out, they wouldn't have told him those options would destroy the relays. They would have tried to make the destroy ending seem really unappealing. As it stands, the destroy option was the MOST appealing (for me at least).

Actually since we're here, why didn't the Reaper just kill Shepard? Why take the chance that the indoctrination could fail?

Uh....what?

Destroy is set up as the least appealing. Not only do you die, and wipe out all synthetic life, you also don't stop the war. The peace is brief. The other two choices are painted as completely ending the war of man vs Reapers.

As far as why they don't just kill Shep....no offense but did you play "ME2"? Harbinger makes it 100% clear the Reapers want your mind, and body....they want Shepard as a pawn. He makes references to this several times through out the game.

They don't really set it up as the least appealing.

-In some cases it is the only option they show
-It is always the first option they show
-It shows Anderson - a character most players will like and agree with - choosing this ending

If anything, control is the one they discourage the most. It shows TIM going for it - the guy who just tried to shoot you and Anderson - and the child says that you will die in no uncertain terms.

[Tiax Rules All]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Star Gazer ending and Shep "waking up" no where near the beam or where the laser was shot kills indoc. Sorry.

StarGazer makes no ****ing sense at all.

Shep wakes up in the pile of rubble directly to the left of where Harby blasted him.

steve here has stopped making sense long ago. hes gone from debating logically to trolling now in my opinion.

[Rafe34]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...
Not if their plan all along was to patch the game with the real ending at a later date.

This has been discussed so many times. You people keep coming on here and saying that we're saying that this is all we are going to get. No. We're saying that BW will release a DLC/patch that gives us the real ending.

this, so totally this

I think you should put something like this in the OP so that maybe we don't have to answer this question umpteen more times.

Unless its already there and just being ignored.

Modifié par Rafe34, 15 mars 2012 - 12:54 .

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

savionen wrote...

UnevenElefant5 wrote...

The thing with the indoctrination theory is that if they really wanted to make shepard choose the options they set out, they wouldn't have told him those options would destroy the relays. They would have tried to make the destroy ending seem really unappealing. As it stands, the destroy option was the MOST appealing (for me at least).

Actually since we're here, why didn't the Reaper just kill Shepard? Why take the chance that the indoctrination could fail?

Overall the Red option seems to be the least appealing for most people, since you also kill the Geth, EDI, and potentially a ton of other technology at the same time. It's the most guaranteed option to send everyone back to the stone-age.

Harbinger wants to indoctrinate Shepard, regarldess of ME3. That was always his intention in ME2. Harbinger can take memories, thoughts, etc. Shepard would give great insight into humanity, which may or may not require Shepard to be alive.

Plus as we have learned, the Protheans put up much less of a fight since they never united the galaxies forces. And it took over 100 years to wipe them out, requiring the use of indoctrinated sleeper agents. Shepard and the galaxy in this instance is putting up allot more recistance so the reapers are Definatly going to need those sleeper agents. Blowing up shepard there and then would not be some instant win for the reapers, they still have a whole galaxy to extreminate. Harbinger always wanted shepard indoctrinated, and he still has very good reason to want him indoctrinated.

So now you're arguing that Shep becomes an indoctrinated sleeper agent in 2/3 endings, and helps the Reapers?

[Chrisimo]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

UnevenElefant5 wrote...

The thing with the indoctrination theory is that if they really wanted to make shepard choose the options they set out, they wouldn't have told him those options would destroy the relays. They would have tried to make the destroy ending seem really unappealing. As it stands, the destroy option was the MOST appealing (for me at least).

Actually since we're here, why didn't the Reaper just kill Shepard? Why take the chance that the indoctrination could fail?

Because there are a bazillion holes with Indoc. theory, all way more glaring than in the game itself, but shhhh.

More glaring than the holes in the game itself? Which ones? Stargazer? I would give you that. Which else?

[Candidate 88766]

hex23 wrote...

And if we're going with the "it's all in Shepard's mind" theory, him being willing to destroy the Mass Relays to achieve his goal isn't exactly surprising. He already destroyed one and that was just to delay the Reapers.

Then again if he actually did destroy them all that presents the problem of "how did the surrounding planets survive?", because "Arrival" showed us it's impossible.

The Alpha Relay exploded because the dark energy in the Relay is no longer being contained, and so detonated. 

In the ME3 endings, that same dark energy is being used up instead, to somehow either destroy only synthetic life, control the Reapers, or magically combine organics and synthetics.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Star Gazer ending and Shep "waking up" no where near the beam or where the laser was shot kills indoc. Sorry.

StarGazer makes no ****ing sense at all. It's very easy to explain him perfectly fine for Indoctrination theory. I, and several others have told you so several times during this thread. I would respectfully request you come up with a different argument instead of constantly beating a dead horse.

Answer to other question: Shep wakes up in the pile of rubble directly to the left of where Harby blasted him. It's rather patently obvious. 

I could just as easily say: Shep drawing breath after falling from the Citadel proves that it must be a dream because no human can survive that.

So...after Shep wakes up, the beam is gone? Because that's what you're saying here. So no one can go up into the Citadel and use crucible, so humans win how, exactly?

[Rafe34]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

A smart player would realise that Shepard is waking up in a different place, which goes against the theory.

A smart player would realize there is no ****ing way in the galaxy Shep can "wake up" or take a breath after falling from the damn Citadel. It's not POSSIBLE for this to be real. He would be dead. He's clearly on earth.

How in blazes did he get there?

[savionen]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

savionen wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Firstly, you're still missing the fundamental point I'm making - why make the ending DLC at all?

You cannot possibly believe that Bioware would charge full price for a game they intentionally left unifinished just so they could make a little extra money later. Can you even imagine the backlash?

There is no reason at all to deliberatly not include the ending won the discs.

It would be like removing and then charging extra for the last chapter of a book, or the ending of a film.

The script being leaked seems like a decent answer.

Overall just comes down to your trust in Bioware I guess. Having a rather refined RPG that in the last 10 minutes turns terrible, negates the story in ME1 and ME2 and creates dozens of plot-holes, that has no resolution:

What's more plausible?

They failed terribly somehow in the last 10 minutes or they're planning on continuing the story?

What shows more trust in Bioware:

-That they tried to go for a bleak ending suited to the atmopshere of war, but didn't manage to do so very well

-That they didn't bother to finished the endings in time so just released the game anyway

The whole idea that Bioware would release the game unfinished shows far less trust in them than simply assuming that out of 30 hours of generally fantastic writing they just couldn't get the endings right.

I trust that Bioware would release ME3 in complete form. Some of the people there have very clearly poured an awful lot into this game - and it generally shows - and I trust that they wouldn't ship it without its ending.

Indoctrination/hallucination made sense when I played the game, before coming to these forums to discuss it. There's a lot of elements that point to it that otherwise just seem random, such as the kid that nobody sees but Shepard.

The ending isn't really complete as is, even if they're going for a bleak outlook. The ending of Mass Effect 3 feels MUCH more like the 2nd game out of a trilogy, or part of a two-parter, etc, especially when you include Shepard still being alive under the rubble. All 3 options say Shepard will die.

[hex23]

Zyrious wrote...

They killed you in ME 2 pretty much without hesitation. Capturing you is a bonus, not the primary goal. "Salvage the body if you can". They merely want your genetics, to study and then vat you, nothing more complicated by that, Drew Karpyshyn laid this out plain as day.

False. Harbinger has several lines that talk about your destiny, your mind, how they want to control you. Yes the Collectors killed him at the start of the game but it makes zero sense to cite that as proof that they want him dead, then totally dismiss the ton of dialogue in the rest of the game where Harbinger makes references to wanting to use  you as a pawn.

[Rockpopple]

Steve, why the open hosility at Indoctrinators? It's one thing to believe we're wrong, it's another thing to be so mad, bro.

Would it be such a horrible thing if Shepard didn't press the final "Kill all Reapers" button in the end? If another soldier or some random grunt did? Would that really be so terrible? Would this guy or girl be the new hero of Mass Effect, and not the goddamned super-soldier who got them ALL there: Commander Shepard?

Whether Cmdr Shepard was the one to finally put a bullet in Harbinger's brai-er-skul-er-thingy or not, Shepard was the one who discovered the Reaper threat. Shepard was the one who tried to warn the Galaxy. Shepard was the one who stopped Sovereign from opening a back door to the Reaper fleet. Shepard was the one who stopped the Collectors. Shepard was the one who destroyed a Batarian System to stop the Reapers from jump starting their invasion. Shepard was the one who united a very divided Galaxy into one, cohesive Reaper battling force. Shepard was the one who discovered the purpose of the Crucible. Shepard was the one who killed the Reaper Destroyer that got Hammer the chance they needed to make the final run at the Conduit.

Even if after ALL THAT, Shepard dies, or is Indoctrinated, but the Reapers are still defeated, you think Shepard wasn't the hero, then there's something seriously wrong with you, not Indoc. Theorists.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 15 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Smiley556]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

savionen wrote...

UnevenElefant5 wrote...

The thing with the indoctrination theory is that if they really wanted to make shepard choose the options they set out, they wouldn't have told him those options would destroy the relays. They would have tried to make the destroy ending seem really unappealing. As it stands, the destroy option was the MOST appealing (for me at least).

Actually since we're here, why didn't the Reaper just kill Shepard? Why take the chance that the indoctrination could fail?

Overall the Red option seems to be the least appealing for most people, since you also kill the Geth, EDI, and potentially a ton of other technology at the same time. It's the most guaranteed option to send everyone back to the stone-age.

Harbinger wants to indoctrinate Shepard, regarldess of ME3. That was always his intention in ME2. Harbinger can take memories, thoughts, etc. Shepard would give great insight into humanity, which may or may not require Shepard to be alive.

Plus as we have learned, the Protheans put up much less of a fight since they never united the galaxies forces. And it took over 100 years to wipe them out, requiring the use of indoctrinated sleeper agents. Shepard and the galaxy in this instance is putting up allot more recistance so the reapers are Definatly going to need those sleeper agents. Blowing up shepard there and then would not be some instant win for the reapers, they still have a whole galaxy to extreminate. Harbinger always wanted shepard indoctrinated, and he still has very good reason to want him indoctrinated.

So now you're arguing that Shep becomes an indoctrinated sleeper agent in 2/3 endings, and helps the Reapers?

I'm arguing that is a good motivation for harbinger to try and indoctrinate shepard. Please try to read what I type. I dont have a clue what happens after the endings, nobody does. Not untill a DLC that continues the story is released.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Chrisimo wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

UnevenElefant5 wrote...

The thing with the indoctrination theory is that if they really wanted to make shepard choose the options they set out, they wouldn't have told him those options would destroy the relays. They would have tried to make the destroy ending seem really unappealing. As it stands, the destroy option was the MOST appealing (for me at least).

Actually since we're here, why didn't the Reaper just kill Shepard? Why take the chance that the indoctrination could fail?

Because there are a bazillion holes with Indoc. theory, all way more glaring than in the game itself, but shhhh.

More glaring than the holes in the game itself? Which ones? Stargazer? I would give you that. Which else?

Shep waking up in a different place.
2/3 endings making no sense, because Shep sees the same stuff (minus wake-up) in all 3. So if he gets indoc'd, I'd imagine his vision would be quite a bit different from fighting it off.
Humanity beating the Reapers without Shep
Reapers not just killing Shep
Shep waking up and fighting his way back to the beam solo
etc., etc.

[savionen]

Rafe34 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

A smart player would realise that Shepard is waking up in a different place, which goes against the theory.

A smart player would realize there is no ****ing way in the galaxy Shep can "wake up" or take a breath after falling from the damn Citadel. It's not POSSIBLE for this to be real. He would be dead. He's clearly on earth.

How in blazes did he get there?

That's why it's either another screw-up, or Shepard never actually went to the Citadel. I really doubt they'd act like Shepard fell out of the Citadel, landed on Earth AND lived, after in ME2 they showed that Shepard would not live through the atmosphere. Shepard taking a breath shows more of that, too. At the beginning of ME2 Shepard is basically a half of a skeleton with some flesh still attached.

[UnevenElefant5]

They don't want him dead. Like Zyrious said, indoctrinating him is a bonus. They can still harvest everything without him. They might have been able to use him as a sleeper agent in ME2, but by ME3 they really don't need any since they're pretty much on the verge of victory.

Modifié par UnevenElefant5, 15 mars 2012 - 12:58 .

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Star Gazer ending and Shep "waking up" no where near the beam or where the laser was shot kills indoc. Sorry.

StarGazer makes no ****ing sense at all. It's very easy to explain him perfectly fine for Indoctrination theory. I, and several others have told you so several times during this thread. I would respectfully request you come up with a different argument instead of constantly beating a dead horse.

Answer to other question: Shep wakes up in the pile of rubble directly to the left of where Harby blasted him. It's rather patently obvious. 

I could just as easily say: Shep drawing breath after falling from the Citadel proves that it must be a dream because no human can survive that.

So...after Shep wakes up, the beam is gone? Because that's what you're saying here. So no one can go up into the Citadel and use crucible, so humans win how, exactly?

Yes. After Shepard wakes up, the Reapers realize their plan to indoctrinate him/her has failed.

Why would they then leave a backdoor to the Citadel wide open?

And we get the ending later. Possibly the Normandy flies you in, I'm not sure. There does seem to be audio files for Joker coming to save you.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
They don't really set it up as the least appealing.

-In some cases it is the only option they show
-It is always the first option they show
-It shows Anderson - a character most players will like and agree with - choosing this ending

If anything, control is the one they discourage the most. It shows TIM going for it - the guy who just tried to shoot you and Anderson - and the child says that you will die in no uncertain terms.

TIM is indoc in the form of control choice, boy is indoc in the form of synthesis.
anderson is the voice of reason in the form of destroy option.

all three of these peeps in the end represent the three choces but are in sheps head. TIM is shown as obviously bad, but synth is portrayed as the best by the boy.

hy is destroy painted in renengade red? because its a mind game. why are the others portrayed in paragon blue and shiny beam in center? its there to trick you. follow anderson, follow killing reapers. no hesitation, no comprimise. anything else leads to indoc.

[Bigdoser]

 Credits to Mr Gogeta34 for the post here is what he put down in another topic.
Reposting in case people missed it

More fuel for the Hallucination/Indoctrination Theory fire:

Collector's tried to take Shepard's body under Harbinger in ME2. "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" is a line by Harbinger that proves that the Reapers wanted Shepard for a long time... and perhaps even anticipated that Shepard would be their final element necessary for victory.
"We are the beginning, you are the end."
"Why do you resists us, Shepard?"
"I am the Harbinger of your perfection."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance."
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard."

Naturally though, that didn't work out...
"You have failed... we will find another way..." - Harbinger (ME2)

In Arrival, Harbinger makes it clear (under no uncertain terms) that he wants Shepard's mind. Object Rho did render Shepard unconscious and apparently, prior to that, Harbinger was trying to indoctrinate Shepard... but his will had been too strong.

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

Shepard could've very well been "infected" by Rho's final shockwave, and when he came to... indoctrination began seeping in (with the ME3 Kid being its very first real manifestation). However this too, ultimately failed in its intention.

"Shepard, you have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability... dust struggling against cosmic winds." -Harbinger (Arrival


"Know this as you die in vain... your time will come. Your species will fall." -Harbinger
(kinda sounds like some of ME3's endings)


So Harbinger tries something more creative to Indoctrinate Shepard... one that he may have learned from The Illusive Man... appealing to his compassionate side via child and his own sense of morality (Paragon/Renegade).

Also note that the same Renegade choice (Destroy ending) can play out in 2 unique ways... Whereas one is the "best" ending (with Shepard surviving)... the other Renegade choice kills everyone and obliterates everything. Such unique endings from the same choice only furthers the likelyhood of illusion.
 

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rockpopple wrote...

Steve, why the open hosility at Indoctrinators? It's one thing to believe we're wrong, it's another thing to be so mad, bro.

Would it be such a horrible thing if Shepard didn't press the final "Kill all Reapers" button in the end? If another soldier or some random grunt did? Would that really be so terrible? Would this guy or girl be the new hero of Mass Effect, and not the goddamned super-soldier who got them ALL there: Commander Shepard?

Whether Cmdr Shepard was the one to finally put a bullet in Harbinger's brai-er-skul-er-thingy or not, Shepard was the one who discovered the Reaper threat. Shepard was the one who tried to warn the Galaxy. Shepard was the one who stopped Sovereign from opening a back door to the Reaper fleet. Shepard was the one who stopped the Collectors. Shepard was the one who destroyed a Batarian System to stop the Reapers from jump starting their invasion. Shepard was the one who united a very divided Galaxy into one, cohesive Reaper battling force. Shepard was the one who discovered the purpose of the Crucible. Shepard was the one who killed the Reaper Destroyer that got Hammer the chance they needed to make the final run at the Conduit.

Even if after ALL THAT, Shepard dies, or is Indoctrinated, but the Reapers are still defeated, you think Shepard wasn't the hero, then there's something seriously wrong with you, not Indoc. Theorists.

Two things: Shep would be a villain if he chooses to be indoc'd, and that's not how it is presented in the ending
If Shep doesn't do it, who can? Everyone else fled. They even say that on the radio that everyone agrees is real - everyone is dead, and they are retreating. It was Shep or never.

[hex23]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

They don't really set it up as the least appealing.

-In some cases it is the only option they show
-It is always the first option they show
-It shows Anderson - a character most players will like and agree with - choosing this ending

If anything, control is the one they discourage the most. It shows TIM going for it - the guy who just tried to shoot you and Anderson - and the child says that you will die in no uncertain terms.

It's only shown as the only option if you don't have enough EMS to win the war anyway. So you resisting indoctrination is a moot point in that scenario.

And Anderson is shown in red. Meaning it's a Renegade choice.

You're focusing on minor details and missing a key point. Destroy is the only ending that the kid says won't result in the war being over. It's also the only ending that shows Shepard alive, despite the kid flat out telling you it'll kill you.

Modifié par hex23, 15 mars 2012 - 01:01 .

[Zyrious]

hex23 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

They killed you in ME 2 pretty much without hesitation. Capturing you is a bonus, not the primary goal. "Salvage the body if you can". They merely want your genetics, to study and then vat you, nothing more complicated by that, Drew Karpyshyn laid this out plain as day.

False. Harbinger has several lines that talk about your destiny, your mind, how they want to control you. Yes the Collectors killed him at the start of the game but it makes zero sense to cite that as proof that they want him dead, then totally dismiss the ton of dialogue in the rest of the game where Harbinger makes references to wanting to use  you as a pawn.

He's talking about humanity in general, reapers being our genetic destiny. Dont take my word for it, go look at drew karpyshyn's tweets or blogs, he literally spells it out. They have no intent on indoctrinating you. They want yout *genetics*, your body, nothing more. And that is just a bonus, they are more than happy to kill you if necessary.

He never says he wants to use you as a pawn. Shove you in a vat, peel you apart to study you, and various threats about humanity in general, but other than that...and as i said, drew spelled it our pretty clearly, this should not be a debating point.

Modifié par Zyrious, 15 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[savionen]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Steve, why the open hosility at Indoctrinators? It's one thing to believe we're wrong, it's another thing to be so mad, bro.

Would it be such a horrible thing if Shepard didn't press the final "Kill all Reapers" button in the end? If another soldier or some random grunt did? Would that really be so terrible? Would this guy or girl be the new hero of Mass Effect, and not the goddamned super-soldier who got them ALL there: Commander Shepard?

Whether Cmdr Shepard was the one to finally put a bullet in Harbinger's brai-er-skul-er-thingy or not, Shepard was the one who discovered the Reaper threat. Shepard was the one who tried to warn the Galaxy. Shepard was the one who stopped Sovereign from opening a back door to the Reaper fleet. Shepard was the one who stopped the Collectors. Shepard was the one who destroyed a Batarian System to stop the Reapers from jump starting their invasion. Shepard was the one who united a very divided Galaxy into one, cohesive Reaper battling force. Shepard was the one who discovered the purpose of the Crucible. Shepard was the one who killed the Reaper Destroyer that got Hammer the chance they needed to make the final run at the Conduit.

Even if after ALL THAT, Shepard dies, or is Indoctrinated, but the Reapers are still defeated, you think Shepard wasn't the hero, then there's something seriously wrong with you, not Indoc. Theorists.

Two things: Shep would be a villain if he chooses to be indoc'd, and that's not how it is presented in the ending
If Shep doesn't do it, who can? Everyone else fled. They even say that on the radio that everyone agrees is real - everyone is dead, and they are retreating. It was Shep or never.

He doesn't choose to be indoctrinated, he's being coerced. Indoctrination is hallucinations, things put in your brain that seem appealing. To an indoctrinated person they might think they are helping somebody by killing.

Modifié par savionen, 15 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[Rockpopple]

Synthesis is the ending that disturbs me the most.

Unlike Control and Destroy, there are no visual clues about Synthesis. But unlike Control and Destroy, Synthesis doesn't have Shepard looking like he's struggling against the Reapers at all.

With Control, Shepard looks like he's suffering while she's trying to engage the Control rodes. With Destroy, Shepard is out and out going out shooting. But with Synthesis, he just runs and jumps to his death. Shepard gives in totally to Reaper control.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Star Gazer ending and Shep "waking up" no where near the beam or where the laser was shot kills indoc. Sorry.

StarGazer makes no ****ing sense at all. It's very easy to explain him perfectly fine for Indoctrination theory. I, and several others have told you so several times during this thread. I would respectfully request you come up with a different argument instead of constantly beating a dead horse.

Answer to other question: Shep wakes up in the pile of rubble directly to the left of where Harby blasted him. It's rather patently obvious. 

I could just as easily say: Shep drawing breath after falling from the Citadel proves that it must be a dream because no human can survive that.

So...after Shep wakes up, the beam is gone? Because that's what you're saying here. So no one can go up into the Citadel and use crucible, so humans win how, exactly?

Yes. After Shepard wakes up, the Reapers realize their plan to indoctrinate him/her has failed.

Why would they then leave a backdoor to the Citadel wide open?

And we get the ending later. Possibly the Normandy flies you in, I'm not sure. There does seem to be audio files for Joker coming to save you.

So they risk complete annihilation to MAYBE indoctrinate someone? Then when one attempt fails, they shut it off? And, as far as I know, that's the only way in. Reapers are guarding it way too much, from the way it was presented that was their final push - too many resources lost in that push to mount another one. Doesn't make sense to me.