631 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockpopple]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I think they can do this because technically, even a cliffhanger ending is an ending. They can say that the way it ends is open-ended, or imply that Stargazer had it right and the Galaxy somehow won against the Reapers thanks to Shepard getting them to that point.

If we look at the entire game and consider Indoc., then the game simply ends on a cliffhanger, with everything in place for the Galaxy to defeat the Reapers, with or without Shepard.

... I'd still like to know how tho. Hence DLC I will end up paying for.

There's nothing in place to defeat the Reapers though.

Harbinger shoots everyone approaching the Conduit, and Shepard's mind is too broken for him to be of any use - the effects of indoctrination cannot be reversed. 

There is no-one left to enter the Citadel and open the arms, and even if there was Harbinger could shoot them as well.

If this theory is right, the galaxy falls no matter what choices you made in the trilogy.

Keep in mind that according to the theory, everything that happens after Harbinger's attack is a vision. But there's nothing to say that one of Shepard's squaddies or another grunt or two or ten made it to the conduit. Somoene could have conceivably made it. Just because Shepard didn't, doesn't mean they all failed.

And we don't know if the Catalyst is real, since according to the theory, the Catalyst was a figment of Shepard's imagination/part of the Indoctrination delusion.

All I'm saying is nothing is set in stone. Hey, I'm not saying Indoc theory would make the ending awesome. It would end on a brutal cliffhanger. But it makes more sense than the nonsensical face-value endings, and it has a lot of opportunity for DLC that wraps things up properly.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

just because the chrage on the pillar failed didnt mean the freaking galactic army behind him and in space is gone...

Did you not see how powerful the Reapers are in ME1 and ME3? 

Numbers alone cannot beat the Reapers. The Crucible has to reach the Citadel, and the Citadel must be opened.

In the indoctrination theory, there is no-one left to reach the Conduit and open the Citadel. Everyone is engaged with Reaper forces, and with Harbinger guarding the Conduit no-one is going to get through it.

shepard kills reapers on his own and with help from a few friends throughout the series and the last game.

the idea of "the reapers are invicible" is specifically adressed and lessened throughout the game. boy-binger mentions "hope" at the end.  

hope faith and the entire galaxys army beat the reaper. they are not invicible just really tough

No he doesn't.

Killing Sovereign takes an entire fleet.

Killing the Reaper on Rannoch takes an entire fleet.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Actually, there probably are rules against it.

If it could be proven that Bioware intentionally released a game that is not only incomplete, but cannot actually be finished without paying even more for it, then there may even be grounds for a lawsuit under trading standards laws.

Its one thing to charge for a non-essential part of the game. It is quite another to intetionally not include the end of the game - arguably one of the most important parts - and then charge extra for it.

If you went and bought a book, and when you finish readin the last chapter you get told that actually that last chapter was a lie and that you'll have to fork out extra for the ending, how would you feel?

wether or not your objection is valid, they cannot be accused of not having an ending.

marketing will say "you have a fully fuctioning ending, this is just optional"
you cant disprove that. It sucks, its dirty. but they will win by tchnicality.

just like "you have a fully funtional game without the prothean, hes extra"
doesn't matter if its true or not you cant win that arguement.

[Sinnerj117]

Indoctrination, premonition, or a nightmare...

[CrisisOne]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

just because the chrage on the pillar failed didnt mean the freaking galactic army behind him and in space is gone...

Did you not see how powerful the Reapers are in ME1 and ME3? 

Numbers alone cannot beat the Reapers. The Crucible has to reach the Citadel, and the Citadel must be opened.

In the indoctrination theory, there is no-one left to reach the Conduit and open the Citadel. Everyone is engaged with Reaper forces, and with Harbinger guarding the Conduit no-one is going to get through it.

shepard kills reapers on his own and with help from a few friends throughout the series and the last game.

the idea of "the reapers are invicible" is specifically adressed and lessened throughout the game. boy-binger mentions "hope" at the end.  

hope faith and the entire galaxys army beat the reaper. they are not invicible just really tough

No he doesn't.

Killing Sovereign takes an entire fleet.

Killing the Reaper on Rannoch takes an entire fleet.

You only needed a Cain for the first one on earth...

[Candidate 88766]

Rockpopple wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

I think they can do this because technically, even a cliffhanger ending is an ending. They can say that the way it ends is open-ended, or imply that Stargazer had it right and the Galaxy somehow won against the Reapers thanks to Shepard getting them to that point.

If we look at the entire game and consider Indoc., then the game simply ends on a cliffhanger, with everything in place for the Galaxy to defeat the Reapers, with or without Shepard.

... I'd still like to know how tho. Hence DLC I will end up paying for.

There's nothing in place to defeat the Reapers though.

Harbinger shoots everyone approaching the Conduit, and Shepard's mind is too broken for him to be of any use - the effects of indoctrination cannot be reversed. 

There is no-one left to enter the Citadel and open the arms, and even if there was Harbinger could shoot them as well.

If this theory is right, the galaxy falls no matter what choices you made in the trilogy.

Keep in mind that according to the theory, everything that happens after Harbinger's attack is a vision. But there's nothing to say that one of Shepard's squaddies or another grunt or two or ten made it to the conduit. Somoene could have conceivably made it. Just because Shepard didn't, doesn't mean they all failed.

And we don't know if the Catalyst is real, since according to the theory, the Catalyst was a figment of Shepard's imagination/part of the Indoctrination delusion.

All I'm saying is nothing is set in stone. Hey, I'm not saying Indoc theory would make the ending awesome. It would end on a brutal cliffhanger. But it makes more sense than the nonsensical face-value endings, and it has a lot of opportunity for DLC that wraps things up properly.

If someone else had made it, do you not think it logical that Bioware would show this to the player?

Even if Shepard is indoctrinated, if someone makes it to the Citadel and actiavtes the Crucible, surely that would be something the player would want to see and something that Bioware would want to show the player?

[Alamar2078]

I'm not sure if it's an indoctrination attempt or if Shep was just knocked "goofy" and had a hallucination. Either way though the only disappointing thing about this theory is that we didn't get the ending that I and others expected. Maybe it's the one BW intended all along but if so [lets not even bring up any promises about endings] it's disappoint that the series would end before we get to see the end of the fight.

What's hilarious to me though this ending is still preferable to the varieties of space magic that are its logical alternatives.

[Tiax Rules All]

shepard kills reapers on his own and with help from a few friends throughout the series and the last game.

the idea of "the reapers are invicible" is specifically adressed and lessened throughout the game. boy-binger mentions "hope" at the end.  

hope faith and the entire galaxys army beat the reaper. they are not invicible just really tough

No he doesn't.

Killing Sovereign takes an entire fleet.

Killing the Reaper on Rannoch takes an entire fleet.

ok maybe not "on his own" sorry bad wording

but he kills reapers with signifgantly less then what he come with at the end. 

look all it takes is one reaper to die conventionally to prove that the war can be won.

there was no crucible in ME2 and soverighn succomed to conventional warfare and tactics

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 02:01 .

[Koshea69]

Have you considered at the very beginning of the game, when the reapers first landed Shepard gets blasted pretty hard, that's when Anderson wakes him up and hands him...a gun with infinite ammo (you can shoot all day long and no reloading at the first set of husks) then his logical mind takes over and tells him he has no ammo.

So what if you never left earth in the first place? What if the whole game was indoctrination and at the end he wakes up in that ruined building instead of the one in London?

[Candidate 88766]

CrisisOne wrote...

You only needed a Cain for the first one on earth...

Yet another plothole with the ending sequence.

The smaller Reaper requires a fleet shooting at it to die, and even then it still talks, but a handheld weapon suddenly has the power to one-shot a Reaper? And no-one seems to have thought that Shepard could probably use a couple of these on his mission?

I don't think they thought that bit through.

[eddieoctane]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

just because the chrage on the pillar failed didnt mean the freaking galactic army behind him and in space is gone...

Did you not see how powerful the Reapers are in ME1 and ME3? 

Numbers alone cannot beat the Reapers. The Crucible has to reach the Citadel, and the Citadel must be opened.

In the indoctrination theory, there is no-one left to reach the Conduit and open the Citadel. Everyone is engaged with Reaper forces, and with Harbinger guarding the Conduit no-one is going to get through it.

Many interpretations of the indoctrination theory hinge on Shepard survivng as evidence of him breaking indoctrination and waking up. If this is true, we don't know that no one else survived. Furthermore, Harbinger has already shown an obsessive interest in Shepard. If the child-AI was a manifestation of Harbinger, it meant that Shepard, by just existing, presented a significant enough threat to the Reapers to merrit such constant and direct opposition. Basically, they are scared of you. They have never been caught off guard like ths before, the AI admits as much. Maybe we do pose a tangible threat to them with conventional forces.

And if not, if Shepard lived, it doesn't mean (s)he can't struggle to stand back up and make a break for the beam to the Citadel. Be realistic about the rubble; it's freaking concrete. The Citadel is anything but concrete in construction. Last time Shepard went through reentry, he came out brain-dead, with no pulse, lacking skin, and needing implants to be brought back. I doubt a second trip would have left him(her) breathing, let alone left armor intact.

[Rockpopple]

@Candidate - well if you look at it from the Reaper's point of view, pre ME3, Shepard was a curiosity. He was resisting their invasion at a higher efficiency than even the Protheans. He managed to kill one of them. So I'm sure they simply thought they could afford to kill him.

In Mass Effect 3, the war is on. Shepard unites the Galaxy and gets the Crucible and figures out how to use it. At this point, Shepard's not just a curiosity. I doubt the Reapers were ever afraid of Shepard. They probably can't experience fear as we do. But I'm sure they moved Shepard to the "conquer and study" column to the "kill on sight" column.

And keep in mind that according to canon, Indoctrination isn't a conscious effort by the Reapers. They Indoctrinate simply by being there.

[hex23]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Then why does Harbinger shoot him?

Why does the Reaper on Rannoch shoot him?

Because it's a cool scene in a video game?

I mean, if we're going by that logic, why do the Reapers send dangerous minions against him in the first place? Why don't they kidnap him or only use non-lethal weapons against him?

Because it's a video game, and you need enemies to kill.

I think we can chalk that up to game play mechanics, but in the story and dialogue Harbinger has made it clear he doesn't want you dead.

Modifié par hex23, 15 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[Rockpopple]

@Candidate - Not necessarily. If they wanted to go for an artsy cliffhanger ending, they wouldn't have shown anyone making it, or how the Galaxy managed to destroy the Reapers. Notice that a cliffhanger ending wouldn't show the Galaxy being wiped out by the Reapers either.

And a cliffhanger ending is a dirty ending, but it is technically an ending.

[novaseeker]

hex23 wrote...

Earlier someone asked "if Shepard is unconscious why wouldn't the Reapers just kill him?"

Because in "Arrival" they said they want his mind...not his brain...his mind.

www.youtube.com/watch

They even say "patch him up....we want Shepard alive" after you lose the shoot out in the first Object Rho scene.

They also had 2+ days to kill him while he was in close proximity to Object Rho, and didn't. That should be a massive clue that the Reapers had something else in mind for him.

Exactly.

Sometimes when I read the comments in these threads ("why would the reapers want shep alive???"), I wonder if these people really played through the series properly, to be honest.

[Leonides02]

There are 18 pages of comments here, so I'm certain it is noticed that when you wake up near the beam the ENORMOUS Reaper is magically gone, right? Leaving the beam completely undefended.

[Candidate 88766]

[quote]Tiax Rules All wrote...

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...
shepard kills reapers on his own and with help from a few friends throughout the series and the last game.

the idea of "the reapers are invicible" is specifically adressed and lessened throughout the game. boy-binger mentions "hope" at the end.  

hope faith and the entire galaxys army beat the reaper. they are not invicible just really tough[/quote]No he doesn't.

Killing Sovereign takes an entire fleet.

Killing the Reaper on Rannoch takes an entire fleet.

[/quote]
ok maybe not "on his own" sorry bad wording

but he kills reapers with signifgantly less then what he come with at the end. 

look all it takes is one reaper to die conventionally to prove that the war can be won.

there was no crucible in ME2 and soverighn succomed to conventional warfare and tactics[/quote]They only won in ME1 because they outnumbered Sovereign by such a huge margin.

In ME3 they have enough ships to engage virtually the entire galaxy at the same time. The combined fleets of the galaxy are not going to outnumber the Reapers anything like as much any more - especially given the savage beating so many of the fleets have taken.

The game makes it explicitly obvious that conventional warfare will not work.

The Crucible is the only way to win.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

You only needed a Cain for the first one on earth...

Yet another plothole with the ending sequence.

The smaller Reaper requires a fleet shooting at it to die, and even then it still talks, but a handheld weapon suddenly has the power to one-shot a Reaper? And no-one seems to have thought that Shepard could probably use a couple of these on his mission?

I don't think they thought that bit through.

your putting the reapers on a pedastal...

human reaper is incomplete, not full strength, Soverigh is one of the biggest if not biggest reaper.
it died.  they died. stop being so defeatist. if you were a soldier behind shepard i would renegade slap you back into the right mindset

[CrisisOne]

Leonides02 wrote...

There are 18 pages of comments here, so I'm certain it is noticed that when you wake up near the beam the ENORMOUS Reaper is magically gone, right? Leaving the beam completely undefended.

Actually you see the reaper/harbinger leaving, he probobly assumed he killed everyone approaching.

[novaseeker]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Earlier someone asked "if Shepard is unconscious why wouldn't the Reapers just kill him?"

Because in "Arrival" they said they want his mind...not his brain...his mind.

www.youtube.com/watch

They even say "patch him up....we want Shepard alive" after you lose the shoot out in the first Object Rho scene.

They also had 2+ days to kill him while he was in close proximity to Object Rho, and didn't. That should be a massive clue that the Reapers had something else in mind for him.

Then why does Harbinger shoot him?

Why does the Reaper on Rannoch shoot him?

They were shooting him in Arrival, too, and when he went down the indoctrinated Doctor specifcially said to patch him up because they wanted him alive.

Somewhat similar to Harbinger incapacitating Shepard and then deciding to try to indoctrinate him rather than just kill him, no?

[Rockpopple]

You only see Harbinger leave the battle after the "sequence" begins. IRL, Harbinger could still be there, firing away.

@Novaseeker, I agree, but Harbinger wouldn't be "deciding" to Indoctrinate Shepard. He'd be subconciously trying to Indoctrinate EVERYONE on the battlefield.

But Indoctrination is a long process. That's why Shepard has avoided being Indoctrinated up until now. If it was instant, he'd be a Reaper-puppet a long time ago. Plus, he has a strong will. It would break eventually, as would everyone's on the battle-field, but if they could get the Crucible to work, it wouldn't matter.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 15 mars 2012 - 02:09 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

They only won in ME1 because they outnumbered Sovereign by such a huge margin.

In ME3 they have enough ships to engage virtually the entire galaxy at the same time. The combined fleets of the galaxy are not going to outnumber the Reapers anything like as much any more - especially given the savage beating so many of the fleets have taken.

The game makes it explicitly obvious that conventional warfare will not work.

The Crucible is the only way to win.

what they have is ALL the galaxies fleets not just the defence force at citadel. they are also not getting ambushed and they are going into the fight on thier terms. prepared, THEY get the jump on the reapers and also the reapers consistanly underestimate organics (like you are doing)

there is plenty there that has changed in favor of organics..

[CrisisOne]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

You only needed a Cain for the first one on earth...

Yet another plothole with the ending sequence.

The smaller Reaper requires a fleet shooting at it to die, and even then it still talks, but a handheld weapon suddenly has the power to one-shot a Reaper? And no-one seems to have thought that Shepard could probably use a couple of these on his mission?

I don't think they thought that bit through.

your putting the reapers on a pedastal...

human reaper is incomplete, not full strength, Soverigh is one of the biggest if not biggest reaper.
it died.  they died. stop being so defeatist. if you were a soldier behind shepard i would renegade slap you back into the right mindset

true, and I'm sure the destroyer class are weaker then their soveriegn class brothers anyway, that and destroyers don't appear to have shields.

[Candidate 88766]

novaseeker wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Earlier someone asked "if Shepard is unconscious why wouldn't the Reapers just kill him?"

Because in "Arrival" they said they want his mind...not his brain...his mind.

www.youtube.com/watch

They even say "patch him up....we want Shepard alive" after you lose the shoot out in the first Object Rho scene.

They also had 2+ days to kill him while he was in close proximity to Object Rho, and didn't. That should be a massive clue that the Reapers had something else in mind for him.

Then why does Harbinger shoot him?

Why does the Reaper on Rannoch shoot him?

They were shooting him in Arrival, too, and when he went down the indoctrinated Doctor specifcially said to patch him up because they wanted him alive.

Somewhat similar to Harbinger incapacitating Shepard and then deciding to try to indoctrinate him rather than just kill him, no?

Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

[Tiax Rules All]

and the "convetional warefare cannot work" is disproven throughout the game as it goes on. Hackets attitude at te start of the game is drastically different then the end of the game.

convetional warefare can work.
the crucible is more of a symbal of hope and unity then they one button reaper solution.

think mature issues, mature game. the obvoius answer can be wrong and people like hackett can be wrong too.