631 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctoglethorpe]

As I created another thread about, while this is compelling evidense I do not think its the de-facto clue. Many other games have gimmicky easter eggs like this.

The real defacto proof that its a dream is the way your squad mates disappear in the final scene and end up in the normandy. It is COMPLETELY out of character for them to do that, and really not even possible. Your telling me Shepard got shot down and the companions who had just pledged their lives to help me turn tail and run, manage to get back to the flank without beign shot be Harby, call the normandy to pick them up, and then say "**** this noise" and jump out of the system while the battle for all existance wages? BULL ****. And Bioware knows that. They know there's no way that would happen, after what was an amazing first 99.9% of the game they wouldn't completely flip out the entire continuity like that. People like to chock it up to being a rushed ending. No way dude, an ending isn't just the quick last sentense of a highschool essay, its the part of the game that often gets the most attention throughout the entire development process. There's no way a hole that big would just "slip by" in a botched rush job. With the whole way the scenes play out according to your EMS, they had completely control over what was going on, everything that happened was DELIBERATE. But if it really happened, it would make no sense. Liara and Garrus (using my squad as example) just pledged to fight to the end, they WOULD NOT just turn and run. Neither would Joker. To add to the theory, the people you hear on the radio act like the squade mates we're never there with you during the final rush to the beam. But you can turn around and see them. THEY ARE THERE BEFORE YOU GET HIT. So why and better yet how did they completely vanish to the Normandy? Because they didn't.

If it was a dream... well that answers everything.

It was a dream.

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 15 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[Plasma Prestige]

 Absolutely. The breathing Shepard is the straw that breaks the camel's back. From seemingly unlimited pistol ammo, to meeting Star Child, to the Normandy escaping...somehow, the final scene makes refuting the indoctrination theory really tough.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

They only won in ME1 because they outnumbered Sovereign by such a huge margin.

In ME3 they have enough ships to engage virtually the entire galaxy at the same time. The combined fleets of the galaxy are not going to outnumber the Reapers anything like as much any more - especially given the savage beating so many of the fleets have taken.

The game makes it explicitly obvious that conventional warfare will not work.

The Crucible is the only way to win.

what they have is ALL the galaxies fleets not just the defence force at citadel. they are also not getting ambushed and they are going into the fight on thier terms. prepared, THEY get the jump on the reapers and also the reapers consistanly underestimate organics (like you are doing)

there is plenty there that has changed in favor of organics..

Yes, but there is also more than one Reaper now.

It took a whole fleet to kill Sovereign. There are too many Reapers in ME3 to assign a whole fleet to each one.

[novaseeker]

Rockpopple wrote...

@Novaseeker, I agree, but Harbinger wouldn't be "deciding" to Indoctrinate Shepard. He'd be subconciously trying to Indoctrinate EVERYONE on the battlefield.

But Indoctrination is a long process. That's why Shepard has avoided being Indoctrinated up until now. If it was instant, he'd be a Reaper-puppet a long time ago. Plus, he has a strong will. It would break eventually, as would everyone's on the battle-field, but if they could get the Crucible to work, it wouldn't matter.

True enough about indoctrination waves being automatic.  I think it does explain why Harbinger just didn't kill him, however.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

so what? say then it didnt directly hit him...

dont get hung up on the wrong details. the point is hes not vaporised but nearly dead. thats how they wrote it so thats how it is.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

and the "convetional warefare cannot work" is disproven throughout the game as it goes on. Hackets attitude at te start of the game is drastically different then the end of the game.

convetional warefare can work.
the crucible is more of a symbal of hope and unity then they one button reaper solution.

think mature issues, mature game. the obvoius answer can be wrong and people like hackett can be wrong too.

Where is it disproven?

Saying that numbers alone can win a war against an enemy that is more advanced, more prepared and more ruthless than you is not mature. It is the sort of cliched ending you'd expect in a Hollywood blockbuster.

The mature interpretation is realising that the combined fleets of the galaxy are there merely to buy Shepard time to reach the Citadel. Thousands of people are laying down their lives simply to buy a little more time. 

[novaseeker]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

So your view is that Shepard died in that blast, and everything after that is a death vision?

Modifié par novaseeker, 15 mars 2012 - 02:16 .

[hex23]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

What was the Reaper gun supposed to shoot? Kittens? Cheerful banter?

Again, you're letting the fact that they have to make a video game get in the way of the story. Shepard can technically "die" a lot of times while you're playing the game. It doesn't change the fact that Harbinger point blank tells you "I want your mind". Word for word. He then tells his minions to not only spare you, but patch you up. And where are you locked up? 20 feet from Object Rho.

Modifié par hex23, 15 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

so what? say then it didnt directly hit him...

dont get hung up on the wrong details. the point is hes not vaporised but nearly dead. thats how they wrote it so thats how it is.

Another plothole in itself.

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

[Rockpopple]

@Novaseeker - Agreed!

@Tiax and Candidate - I have to say that I agree with Candidate on one thing: Conventional warfare wouldn't be enough to defeat the Reapers. They'd battle it out for a while, it'd be drawn out, and a lot of Reapers would die, but eventually Galactic forces would be wiped out. The Reapers apparently operate using an infinite energy source. The Galactic Forces would just run out of juice and ships, eventually.

I think Hackett knew this, and I think the Crucible is important. I just don't think it's necessary for Shepard to be the one to get it to work. It could have been somebody else. For all we know it was a Squad Mate, or a grunt or someone from Hammer.

After Shepard is taken out of the fight, she'd done everything humanly possible to give SOMEONE the chance to do it.

[Perkocet13]

shepard might live long enough to be a big goddamn hero

[Candidate 88766]

novaseeker wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

So your view is that Shepard died in that blast, and everything after that is a death vision?

No.

My point is that if Harbinger is now willing to use that sort of firepower on Shepard he clearly has no interest in letting Shepard live and instead want him eliminated.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

what they have is ALL the galaxies fleets not just the defence force at citadel. they are also not getting ambushed and they are going into the fight on thier terms. prepared, THEY get the jump on the reapers and also the reapers consistanly underestimate organics (like you are doing)

there is plenty there that has changed in favor of organics..

Yes, but there is also more than one Reaper now.

It took a whole fleet to kill Sovereign. There are too many Reapers in ME3 to assign a whole fleet to each one.

what are we argueing about? why? just replay the game then.

your thinking that the reapers can only be defeated by the crucible has flaws. and it was flawed when hackett said it.
hackett has flaws too. real people have flaws. Hackett was OVER-estimating them before and not until after shep pulls off the impossible and unites the entire galaxy do people get thier hope back.

the whole game can be boiled down to the idea of uniting and hope. and all other issues are secondary.

the reapers are not invincable. are you gonna belive somebody who says "omg we cant"
or are you gonna belive that fact the shep and friends can and have been killing them

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 15 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[Rockpopple]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Another plothole in itself.

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

Dude, by that logic (which is correct, I admit) Shepard should have been killed by the Reaper Destroyer on Tuchanka, or the one on Rannoch.

It's good to question, but there's nit-picking too. There's a lot of Creative License taken with the science of Mass Effect.

But I do agree that at that point, Harbinger didn't have any further desire to study Shepard. He wanted Shepard on his toast.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 15 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[CrisisOne]

hex23 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

What was the Reaper gun supposed to shoot? Kittens? Cheerful banter?

Again, you're letting the fact that they have to make a video game get in the way of the story. Shepard can technically "die" a lot of times while you're playing the game. It doesn't change the fact that Harbinger point blank tells you "I want your mind". Word for word. He then tells his minions to not only spare you, but patch you up. And where are you locked up? 20 feet from Object Rho.

Doesn't  he also say to "preserve Shepard's body if possible", I always assumed Harbinger wanted shepards body not needed it.

[hex23]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Another plothole in itself.

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

It's a video game. I don't understand why it's so hard for you to understand that certain scenes exist solely to look cool. It doesn't change what Harbinger said, which is they want Shepard's mind.

I mean if you want to go the hard science route 99% of the game makes no sense. You're nitpicking a completely trivial point, which would be bad enough under normal circumstances but the last 10ish minutes of the game make no sense at all. We don't need to complicate things further by discussing how scientifically accurate Reaper lasers are.

[novaseeker]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
Shooting him with a regular gun would kill him, but leave most of him intact. If Cerberus can revive Shepard, the Reapers can use his mind even if he's dead.

Shooting at him with a Reaper gun - a gun that can one-shot a dreadnaught - is going to leave nothing but a smear on the ground.

So your view is that Shepard died in that blast, and everything after that is a death vision?

No.

My point is that if Harbinger is now willing to use that sort of firepower on Shepard he clearly has no interest in letting Shepard live and instead want him eliminated.

But he gets hit by the blast, doesn't he?  I thought you just said anyone near the reaper gun beam would be dead.  Shepard was near it - very near.  Does he die or not?

In any case, the point is that if the all-powerful reaper gods with their superweapons are superintelligent, it makes sense that they can also choose to use their weapon to incapacitate rather than kill, if only by aiming it in a certain way and so on.  But again, does the beam kill Shepard or not?  If it doesn't, why couldn't it be the case that the all-powerful reaper god couldn't have done so intentionally?

Modifié par novaseeker, 15 mars 2012 - 02:24 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Rockpopple wrote...

@Novaseeker - Agreed!

@Tiax and Candidate - I have to say that I agree with Candidate on one thing: Conventional warfare wouldn't be enough to defeat the Reapers. They'd battle it out for a while, it'd be drawn out, and a lot of Reapers would die, but eventually Galactic forces would be wiped out. The Reapers apparently operate using an infinite energy source. The Galactic Forces would just run out of juice and ships, eventually.

I think Hackett knew this, and I think the Crucible is important. I just don't think it's necessary for Shepard to be the one to get it to work. It could have been somebody else. For all we know it was a Squad Mate, or a grunt or someone from Hammer.

After Shepard is taken out of the fight, she'd done everything humanly possible to give SOMEONE the chance to do it.

sure thats fine too. but it really goes back to the end is vague and maybe we will find out what the crucible REALLY does in the DLC

[hex23]

CrisisOne wrote...

Doesn't  he also say to "preserve Shepard's body if possible", I always assumed Harbinger wanted shepards body not needed it.

In "Arrival" he says he wants Shepard's mind. He also tells his minions to patch you up, and you're kept alive for 2 days within 20 feet of a Reaper artifact, Object Rho. If they wanted to kill you they had 48 hours to act on it.

[Tiax Rules All]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

 
i read this in "comic book guy" from the Simpsns voice

[Rockpopple]

@Tiax Rules All - Agreed.

[alienatedflea]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

well there is one in the agree column.. I honestly would like to hear how this is NOT indoctrination theory by someone that rejects the theory. I can't find anybody that wants to touch it or can explain it differently.

alright well here I am
I do not believe in the indoctrination theory because it seems too wishy washy and more fan fiction than events that happened in the game...kind of like a last ditch effort to secure some hope...

As stated in the game, the Godchild gives shep the option to control the reapers, Shep responds by saying, "I guess TIM was right." but the child says, "Yes, but TIM could never have controlled us for we already controlled him."

Those black swirly lines around the TV is nothing.  He just got out of a near death experience with a reaper beam.  We know he is bleeding badly externally...we can probably assume that he is also bleeding internally meaning that he was at death's door before he even got to the Godchild scene.  I do find it interesting that shepard lived after destroying the crucible and Citadel and plunged into the Earth's atmosphere disintegrating any armor left on his body upon re-entry just so he can "live."

Just seems too hokey pokey for me...

[Candidate 88766]

hex23 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Another plothole in itself.

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

It's a video game. I don't understand why it's so hard for you to understand that certain scenes exist solely to look cool. It doesn't change what Harbinger said, which is they want Shepard's mind.

I mean if you want to go the hard science route 99% of the game makes no sense. You're nitpicking a completely trivial point, which would be bad enough under normal circumstances but the last 10ish minutes of the game make no sense at all. We don't need to complicate things further by discussing how scientifically accurate Reaper lasers are.

Its the double standard that gets me.

People can ignore stuff like this as bad writing, and yet other small inconsistencies are held up as proof that of the indoctrination theory.

Take, for example, the unlimted ammo in the pistol. Its obvious why this is the case - if for some reason you used all the ammo before the end, and you had a low GaW, you'd be unable to finish the game. Its a gameplay mechanic. Nothing more. Much like how Shepard surviving Reaper beams is there because it is actually quite cool. And yet the unlimted ammo is held up as proof the endings are fake.

[Candidate 88766]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The Reaper's main gun is a beam if insanely hot metal travelling unimaginable fast. The shockwave alone from a beam of metal travelling at a fraction of the speed of light would atomise Shepard and everything around him. Its simple physics. F=ma. You have a large mass of metal, with an insanely high acceleration - the combination of that force and that heat should have killed everyone there.

 
i read this in "comic book guy" from the Simpsns voice

Says the guy on an internet forum devoted to a videogame.

[Doctoglethorpe]

A little theory I thought I would go ahead and work into this thread instead of starting another one, would appriciate input.

What if each cycle, when a reaper is built from a race, the reapers final consciousness is not just from a collective of the race, but a single exemplary specimen of that race. I don't mean it is purely of that one person, but that that one person acts as the fundamental conciousness in which all the others are perhaps obsorbed into to "uplift."  What if the reason they want Shepard alive because they want him to become the consciousness of the Human-Reaper. If each cycle has its own equivelent of Shepard (uh oh matrix territory here) and part of the whole reapers plan is for that person to be the one who gets to join them and become one of them, like being Shepard is some right of passage, or at least a show that they have the strongest will and would be capable of it. He is certainly the most exemplary human there is, it would explain why they are so interested in keeping him alive if possible. And now... what if that ends up being a possible ending?  Give up and become the Human-Reaper. 

I just came up with this idea so its pretty rough around the edges but what do you guys think?

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 15 mars 2012 - 02:31 .