This is what made me question the endings and not take them at face value. To me, it's the starkest evidence there is that we're not meant to take the endings at face value.
The texture of those buildings is not only similar to the rubble Shep ends up under, it's exactly the same.
How did Shep go from the Citadel that's exploding in orbit to a breathable atmosphere with rubble that looks exactly like it came from London debris? Hoowwwwwww?????
Reused textures/models? Maybe they did it to cut costs and hoped no one would notice....
this is a pre-rendered cinematic and not a in-game cutscene. So they could have made the rubble anything they designed it to be. even models that were not in game till that point.
I took this ending. After trying the middle one for giggles.
I'm not so worried about indocrination tbh, the game says that you have become legend and saved everyone. Stargazer wouldn't propably know about Shepard otherwise.
But the scene suggests that Shepard might have been indocrinated. But if that's true... Reapers win either way. And that's grim.
That's the thing....
It would suggest they didn't win because there are organics who know about Shepard.
Only way to state an argument against this would be to simply say that Bioware got lazy at the end of all of it and they simply didn't care about the ending. They got sloppy, they got careless, or someone with some major pull in the company was in a pissy mood and he/she decided they were going to force these endings and cause some severe distress for it's faithful fan-base.
...Okay the last mention is very unlikely, but the general point remains. Maybe they really didn't care, maybe they figure, "Meh..we have our money, let them squabble about, complain, b*tch and moan, whine and protest, but in the end we can't be forced to fix it."
It's a depressing reality, but still possible.
You are entiteld to your opinion buy for me this way of thinking is more of a "denial" then believing that the face value endings are made to be rediculous becaouse they are the projections of a dying Shep's last thoughts.
I put emphasis on my first sentence, " Only way to state an argument againstthis".
I see you kind of took my post the wrong way, if anything I'm hopeful that your theory is correct. I actually posted something along those lines in your first thread...page..40 (?) I think? xD
more like if you choose anything but destroy you are indoctrinated/ dead and dont even know it. Cause nobody knows they are indoctrinated. Even TIM willing did it to himself but denied being under their influence.
as far as the job being done. its eather yes. Your job is done, you gathered the galactic fleet that eventually beats the reapers, making you a legend for THAT feat and a herioc end. OR it leaves you back on earth with the war still going on and "theres one more story"
Huh. I get that part about the other two non-destroy options meaning you've succumbed to them. I was just left in that wierd place of "GODDAMMIT NO I WILL NOT SUBMIT" and died anyway. Guess Hackett pulled something out of his ass at the 11th hour to turn the tide then.
Hope you don't mind me saying so, but you forgot to include the one part that immediately draws everything the 'child' said into question. If Shepard was to pick the destroy option, the 'child' says it would destroy all synthetics and that even Shepard is partly synthetic, implying that Shepard would die as well.
So, I ask you, how does Shepard being alive not bring into question everything the 'child' said? And this is speaking in general here, not aimed at anyone in specific.
Edit: And yes, while there is plenty of evidence supporting the indoctrination theory and I believe it, it is the fact that Shepard can be seen alive that seals everything for me.
the god child will say anything to get you to not want to pick the only choice that does not meancomprimise with the reapers. he is manipulating you, shading andersons choice renegade red also. Its an indoctrination ploy. you need to reject it. say f-u to god kid. and are rewarded with waking up and realising you did good, and god-child lied to you.
ok well indoctrination theory and even a bit in my OP describes this. He never walks toward the beam. nobady sees him do it because he doesnt. hes in the rubble. hes hearing the real world radio and its seeping into his hallucination. like things can do with real peoples dreams.
That radio is supposed to be telling you. this isnt right, why are they saying nobody made it to the beam when im right here... cause nobody did make itto the beam. ESPECIALLY anderson before you, he wanst in the charge first of all let alone anything else. ITS ALL SUBCONSCIENCE after destroyer beam. open your mind, replay that part and tell me it doesnt make more sense.
Now we're just speculating. Let's get back to the basics here.
What really happened in that scene?
Scroll to 51:00.
The screen was black, but you can see Coats talking, "Oh God...they're all gone". Then, a bit of white hue, with the female soldier saying "did anyone make it to the beam". When the screen came to, Coats replied, "Negative, our fource was decimated".
5 seconds after that, we see Shepard trying to grab his gun, before he stands up.
So, Coats reported everyone was gone, then Shepard stood up, and moved towards the Conduit. This is why Coats et al did not see Shepard moving towards the beam, because he wasn't up yet at that time.
We're already through the replaying part. Now we're debating the actual meaning of event. Your recollection of event was clearly incorrect, as was proven in the video.
Furthermore, people say he was in the rubble. He was running towards the Conduit on an open field, with no buildings around. I wonder where did the rubble (which indicates stones or concrete come from).
I'd love to continue this dialogue (without your "holier than thou" attitude of course), but I have other things I must attend to. How about I'll send you a private message, and we'll go from there? Or does that count as "forfeiting my opinion"?
Explain the Star Gazer ending, the exact same no matter which path you take. Plays after the credits, it is the true ending.
The stargazer ending can apply no matter what. There is basically no information content at all in that little 20 second clip. I thought it was basically just a way to validate all possible endings as equally 'real', because they're all variations of a core story where "the details got lost"
more like if you choose anything but destroy you are indoctrinated/ dead and dont even know it. Cause nobody knows they are indoctrinated. Even TIM willing did it to himself but denied being under their influence.
as far as the job being done. its eather yes. Your job is done, you gathered the galactic fleet that eventually beats the reapers, making you a legend for THAT feat and a herioc end. OR it leaves you back on earth with the war still going on and "theres one more story"
Huh. I get that part about the other two non-destroy options meaning you've succumbed to them. I was just left in that wierd place of "GODDAMMIT NO I WILL NOT SUBMIT" and died anyway. Guess Hackett pulled something out of his ass at the 11th hour to turn the tide then.
ya but i guess living at the end only to see everybody lose cause you didnt have enough EMF and not having any time left to increase it, would have truley been the "bad" ending
Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 14 mars 2012 - 09:40 .
Just posting up another one in the yes I believe this proves the indoctrination theory and shepard still lives and the game will probably continue from there on. But you already know my opinion full well Tiax
Tiax Rules All, I tip my hat to thee. Your theory have saved my emotional investment on the Mass Effect Trilogy from being eradicated by the last 15 minutes of it. Even if there never is a "Truth DLC" I will hold on to this interpretation and finish the story with head canon.
I've written this in the theory thread but since it has so many pages I write again here while this thread is still fresh: Thank you!
To be honest it's good that they let room for imagination. So you could fill the blanks out yourself.
Problem: ... BioWare promised you do not have to play MP to get best ending. ... 4000 EMS requires MP. ... Most would agree, Shepard living must be best ending. ... Would BioWare lie? (err ... logic error detected)
This is what pisses me off the most. FIX IT BIOWARE!
Tiax Rules All, I tip my hat to thee. Your theory have saved my emotional investment on the Mass Effect Trilogy from being eradicated by the last 15 minutes of it. Even if there never is a "Truth DLC" I will hold on to this interpretation and finish the story with head canon.
I've written this in the theory thread but since it has so many pages I write again here while this thread is still fresh: Thank you!
People like you thanking us is what makes it all worth it. Tiax, myself and many others explaining this have recieved allot more of these thank you's in private messages making it seem people find it hard to admit in public. Thank you for reading these forums with an open mind!
ok well indoctrination theory and even a bit in my OP describes this. He never walks toward the beam. nobady sees him do it because he doesnt. hes in the rubble. hes hearing the real world radio and its seeping into his hallucination. like things can do with real peoples dreams.
That radio is supposed to be telling you. this isnt right, why are they saying nobody made it to the beam when im right here... cause nobody did make itto the beam. ESPECIALLY anderson before you, he wanst in the charge first of all let alone anything else. ITS ALL SUBCONSCIENCE after destroyer beam. open your mind, replay that part and tell me it doesnt make more sense.
Now we're just speculating. Let's get back to the basics here.
What really happened in that scene?
Scroll to 51:00.
The screen was black, but you can see Coats talking, "Oh God...they're all gone". Then, a bit of white hue, with the female soldier saying "did anyone make it to the beam". When the screen came to, Coats replied, "Negative, our fource was decimated".
5 seconds after that, we see Shepard trying to grab his gun, before he stands up.
So, Coats reported everyone was gone, then Shepard stood up, and moved towards the Conduit. This is why Coats et al did not see Shepard moving towards the beam, because he wasn't up yet at that time.
We're already through the replaying part. Now we're debating the actual meaning of event. Your recollection of event was clearly incorrect, as was proven in the video.
Furthermore, people say he was in the rubble. He was running towards the Conduit on an open field, with no buildings around. I wonder where did the rubble (which indicates stones or concrete come from).
I'd love to continue this dialogue (without your "holier than thou" attitude of course), but I have other things I must attend to. How about I'll send you a private message, and we'll go from there? Or does that count as "forfeiting my opinion"?
your still assuming that shepard actually ever gets up to look at his surrounds with his real eyes. he got hit by the destroyer, hes down, hard, and everybody thats with him, hes dying, his brain is firing off some last happy thoughts of his victory trying to put his own thoughts at ease, and now because of his physical and mental weakened state. Indoctrination finally has a chance to controll shep and the reapers/ god child/ harbinger give it one last chance.
ok well indoctrination theory and even a bit in my OP describes this. He never walks toward the beam. nobady sees him do it because he doesnt. hes in the rubble. hes hearing the real world radio and its seeping into his hallucination. like things can do with real peoples dreams.
That radio is supposed to be telling you. this isnt right, why are they saying nobody made it to the beam when im right here... cause nobody did make itto the beam. ESPECIALLY anderson before you, he wanst in the charge first of all let alone anything else. ITS ALL SUBCONSCIENCE after destroyer beam. open your mind, replay that part and tell me it doesnt make more sense.
Now we're just speculating. Let's get back to the basics here.
What really happened in that scene?
Scroll to 51:00.
The screen was black, but you can see Coats talking, "Oh God...they're all gone". Then, a bit of white hue, with the female soldier saying "did anyone make it to the beam". When the screen came to, Coats replied, "Negative, our fource was decimated".
5 seconds after that, we see Shepard trying to grab his gun, before he stands up.
So, Coats reported everyone was gone, then Shepard stood up, and moved towards the Conduit. This is why Coats et al did not see Shepard moving towards the beam, because he wasn't up yet at that time.
We're already through the replaying part. Now we're debating the actual meaning of event. Your recollection of event was clearly incorrect, as was proven in the video.
Furthermore, people say he was in the rubble. He was running towards the Conduit on an open field, with no buildings around. I wonder where did the rubble (which indicates stones or concrete come from).
I'd love to continue this dialogue (without your "holier than thou" attitude of course), but I have other things I must attend to. How about I'll send you a private message, and we'll go from there? Or does that count as "forfeiting my opinion"?
I've played the ending twice now. Both times I was confused because Coats' lines played WHILE I was walking towards the beam. I was thinking "WTF I'm right here".
Either way, it's an irrelavant detail which doesn't support either case.
It's not indoctrination, stop calling it that. It has nothing to do with that. It's just shepards will to live while being knocked the F out. Reapers had nothing to do with his dream sequence, he was just dreaming. Reapers didn't even know he was alive and there's nothing outside of dream sequences to support he was even remotely being indoctrinated beforehand, and those are explained as what anyone would go through in real life who's under that kind of pressure and watched a kid blow up.
Shepard waking up after doing what the AI/Kid said would kill him pretty much disproves the AI/Kid.
Besides, to me it didn't seem like Shepard was hit directly by the laser, more like the laser hit in front of him. It would knock him out but not kill him. The Reaper firing the laser was Harby, who could have killed the Commander before (Arrival) but didn't do it. He wants him indoctrinated.
Well, it just goes to show how the catalyst (who is quite clearly not a ghost child in actuality, just how it manifests itself to Shep).
I look at the Catalyst as something akin to a God, but a more accurate description would be omniscient or omnipotent being. Godchild doesn't say "are you okay?" because that is a typical human platitude - it's quite clear as to the state Shep is in, doesn't need to ask. He says wake up because he knows Shep truly wants a solution. No one through the millions (billions?) of years has ever made it to Godchild - let alone shown that determination.
Why Are you here - Godchild is pissed. Godchild is not the Christian God, just an Omni being like I said. Godchild is mad Shep made it there, but it's not like Godchild can stop Shep (or maybe could - I'm fuzzy on just how powerful and what the true role of Godchild is). Godchild is pissed someone so unworthy is the one to decide the fate. That's why bad Shep can only blow EVERYTHING up - Godchild is pissed at Shep and doesn't think he deserves to live/things deserve to be saved.
That's why the others are not indoctrination - they are alternates and better options than killing all.
And, you said Star Gazer is a dream...why not put it with the rest of the "dream". People claim Shep breathing is canon Good ending - therefore Star Gazer cannot be a hallucination because Shep is already awake.
From another topic, thoughts on Star Gazer ending and Godchild.
Like I said, if you guys think Indoc., Shep is awakened before SG ending. Therefore SG ending is the same for all paths, therefore they all lead to good, therefore the is no indoc.
ok well indoctrination theory and even a bit in my OP describes this. He never walks toward the beam. nobady sees him do it because he doesnt. hes in the rubble. hes hearing the real world radio and its seeping into his hallucination. like things can do with real peoples dreams.
That radio is supposed to be telling you. this isnt right, why are they saying nobody made it to the beam when im right here... cause nobody did make itto the beam. ESPECIALLY anderson before you, he wanst in the charge first of all let alone anything else. ITS ALL SUBCONSCIENCE after destroyer beam. open your mind, replay that part and tell me it doesnt make more sense.
Now we're just speculating. Let's get back to the basics here.
What really happened in that scene?
Scroll to 51:00.
The screen was black, but you can see Coats talking, "Oh God...they're all gone". Then, a bit of white hue, with the female soldier saying "did anyone make it to the beam". When the screen came to, Coats replied, "Negative, our fource was decimated".
5 seconds after that, we see Shepard trying to grab his gun, before he stands up.
So, Coats reported everyone was gone, then Shepard stood up, and moved towards the Conduit. This is why Coats et al did not see Shepard moving towards the beam, because he wasn't up yet at that time.
We're already through the replaying part. Now we're debating the actual meaning of event. Your recollection of event was clearly incorrect, as was proven in the video.
Furthermore, people say he was in the rubble. He was running towards the Conduit on an open field, with no buildings around. I wonder where did the rubble (which indicates stones or concrete come from).
I'd love to continue this dialogue (without your "holier than thou" attitude of course), but I have other things I must attend to. How about I'll send you a private message, and we'll go from there? Or does that count as "forfeiting my opinion"?
Actually, you forgot to add that AFTER Shepard got up and got his gun, Coats was still saying the team was gone. His exact words at the EXACT moment Shepard was getting up was
It's too much! We need to regroup! Fall back to the buildings!
Then AFTER Shepard started walking towards the beam, the Messenger says:
Hammer's wiped out! All forces RETREAT!
So WHILE Shepard is up and walking towards the beam, the ONLY one to do so from Hammer, NOBODY notices him? Not Coats, not the one on the Radio? They CONTINUE to report Hammer as completely decimated?
As for the rubble, in theory Shepard could have been blown back by the blast. Who knows, really? That's a good question, but it doesn't answer the question of why the rubble is of the exact same texture as the London environment, not a space or Citadel environment.
Hope you don't mind me saying so, but you forgot to include the one part that immediately draws everything the 'child' said into question. If Shepard was to pick the destroy option, the 'child' says it would destroy all synthetics and that even Shepard is partly synthetic, implying that Shepard would die as well.
So, I ask you, how does Shepard being alive not bring into question everything the 'child' said? And this is speaking in general here, not aimed at anyone in specific.
Edit: And yes, while there is plenty of evidence supporting the indoctrination theory and I believe it, it is the fact that Shepard can be seen alive that seals everything for me.
the god child will say anything to get you to not want to pick the only choice that does not meancomprimise with the reapers. he is manipulating you, shading andersons choice renegade red also. Its an indoctrination ploy. you need to reject it. say f-u to god kid. and are rewarded with waking up and realising you did good, and god-child lied to you.
I agree with you and had the same thoughts prior to your post. My post was mostly aimed at the ones taking the endings at face value.
The child implies he will die by choosing the destroy ending. Yet, he can live. It should call everything into question for those who are taking the endings at face value. I will add that the child seems to linger if the control choice is picked, yet he disappears practically immediately if the destroy option is chosen.
Edit: The only thing I cannot rationalise/explain is the star gazer scene. I suppose it can be seen as no matter what you do, the Reapers lose and you're heralded as a hero still because you made it possible by gathering the armies. It's the only logical explanation I can think of really, unless it's meant to just let players rest easy and think they've won, which I doubt.
As renegade shepard said to TIM "Trying to understand/compromise with the reapers is sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated" not the exact words but close enough.
Problem: ... BioWare promised you do not have to play MP to get best ending. ... 4000 EMS requires MP. ... Most would agree, Shepard living must be best ending. ... Would BioWare lie? (err ... logic error detected)
I got the best ending and I didn't play the Multiplayer.
Well, it just goes to show how the catalyst (who is quite clearly not a ghost child in actuality, just how it manifests itself to Shep).
I look at the Catalyst as something akin to a God, but a more accurate description would be omniscient or omnipotent being. Godchild doesn't say "are you okay?" because that is a typical human platitude - it's quite clear as to the state Shep is in, doesn't need to ask. He says wake up because he knows Shep truly wants a solution. No one through the millions (billions?) of years has ever made it to Godchild - let alone shown that determination.
Why Are you here - Godchild is pissed. Godchild is not the Christian God, just an Omni being like I said. Godchild is mad Shep made it there, but it's not like Godchild can stop Shep (or maybe could - I'm fuzzy on just how powerful and what the true role of Godchild is). Godchild is pissed someone so unworthy is the one to decide the fate. That's why bad Shep can only blow EVERYTHING up - Godchild is pissed at Shep and doesn't think he deserves to live/things deserve to be saved.
That's why the others are not indoctrination - they are alternates and better options than killing all.
And, you said Star Gazer is a dream...why not put it with the rest of the "dream". People claim Shep breathing is canon Good ending - therefore Star Gazer cannot be a hallucination because Shep is already awake.
From another topic, thoughts on Star Gazer ending and Godchild.
Like I said, if you guys think Indoc., Shep is awakened before SG ending. Therefore SG ending is the same for all paths, therefore they all lead to good, therefore the is no indoc.
I applaud you good sir. You are probably the first to actually present your interpretation with a proper explenation of how you experienced it. This is the kind of feedback we want as opposed to 'plotholes' and 'you are wrong'.
I am very interested to see how the teaser ending of shepard waking up fits into this. How do you explain him waking up on earth (Implied by the concrete rubble) and not on the citadel?
I was talking with friend of mine about endings and we agreed the only one ending which make a sence is destroy ending.
Decision which u must make in your indoctrination dream is made so smart:
1. control
catalyst - from what he told you in fact Reapers cannot be controled, Tim tried that and failed, even better catalyst show you this decision is a better decision for the next generations. Yes you will able to command reapers, which could help you to rebuild Mass Relays in few months and send Reapers to black holes for eternity.
2. merge
merging organics and synthetics create from every living being new one. The new DNA provide peace betwen organincs and non-organics, also provide improved intelect, strenght and others atributes. This atributes provide great benefits for next generation, you will able reconstruct relays in few decades and gain peace.
It is also too good to be right, Reapers doenst care about organics they care only about harvesting .
Harb - We are your salvation through destruction .
3. Destroying
You are pushed to worst possibile ending, you will destroy every synthetic and Relay even the Citadel.
Catalyst told you with this choice you will gain no peace, it wont take long to recreate synthetics and again to start war. So this choice is worst possible, you will bring dark age to galaxy, tear apart whole civilizations and some of them fully vanish under pressure of time and events, even worst with killing of AI. You will gain nothing more than rubles of civilization and it took maybe 1000 years of rebuilding for civilizations to find way back.
Wen you choose this one u will see Sheppard body breath again and also that old man talking about one more strory about Sheppard which only proving indoctrination theory.
With this choice you prove the indoctrination can be broken, you broke something which was helping brainwash every organic all those cycles.
Whole plot with a catalyst and crucible is one big unknown, i think the whole last 10 minutes is messing of your mind by reaper indoctrination. They are trying brainwash your mind, which prove fact the only after destroying ending you can see Shepard still breathing. Which means there is only two options:
1. Tim realy find a way to control reapers and when he saw reapers have heavy casualties he pull out from planet somewhere for regroup. Council forces found injured Sheppard and start looking for remains of Reaper fleet.
2. Tim failed and he is probably dead and you are lying somewhere in rubles of London, battle is over for a time and remaining Reapers flee somewhere safe, for example to ruins of Hegemony. Aliance and Council forces killing every remeaning reaper forces and looking for injured, Shepard is found in bad shape but still alive. Fight will continue-
Retour en haut
If Shepard was to pick the destroy option, the 'child' says it would destroy all synthetics and that even Shepard is partly synthetic, implying that Shepard would die as well.
