631 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Bigdoser wrote...

As renegade shepard said to TIM "Trying to understand/compromise with the reapers is sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated" not the exact words but close enough.  

Being paragon... I still agree with that. Reapers are not to be nagotiated with.

Even when my Shepard said: "So, Illusive man was right...", to the Starchild.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Well, it just goes to show how the catalyst (who is quite clearly not a ghost child in actuality, just how it manifests itself to Shep).

I look at the Catalyst as something akin to a God, but a more accurate description would be omniscient or omnipotent being. Godchild doesn't say "are you okay?" because that is a typical human platitude - it's quite clear as to the state Shep is in, doesn't need to ask. He says wake up because he knows Shep truly wants a solution. No one through the millions (billions?) of years has ever made it to Godchild - let alone shown that determination.

Why Are you here - Godchild is pissed. Godchild is not the Christian God, just an Omni being like I said. Godchild is mad Shep made it there, but it's not like Godchild can stop Shep (or maybe could - I'm fuzzy on just how powerful and what the true role of Godchild is). Godchild is pissed someone so unworthy is the one to decide the fate. That's why bad Shep can only blow EVERYTHING up - Godchild is pissed at Shep and doesn't think he deserves to live/things deserve to be saved.

That's why the others are not indoctrination - they are alternates and better options than killing all.


And, you said Star Gazer is a dream...why not put it with the rest of the "dream". People claim Shep breathing is canon Good ending - therefore Star Gazer cannot be a hallucination because Shep is already awake.

From another topic, thoughts on Star Gazer ending and Godchild.

Like I said, if you guys think Indoc., Shep is awakened before SG ending. Therefore SG ending is the same for all paths, therefore they all lead to good, therefore the is no indoc.

I applaud you good sir. You are probably the first to actually present your interpretation with a proper explenation of how you experienced it. This is the kind of feedback we want as opposed to 'plotholes' and 'you are wrong'.

I am very interested to see how the teaser ending of shepard waking up fits into this. How do you explain him waking up on earth (Implied by the concrete rubble) and not on the citadel?

I can't really explain it, honestly. Indoc. doesn't work IMO because of Star Gazer ending (I go into more depth in my own topic than I do here), and the sequencing of events proves it's not a hallucination, and you get the same future for all endings so it can't be indoc.

My only thing is poor writing. Wouldn't be too shocking given how the rest of the ending played out. If there were no SG ending, this would give the whole "hallucation/dream" theory a ton of credit. It could also just be someone else, not Shep, showing destruction happened but Earth remains. I dunno though.

[Bigdoser]

Arppis wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

As renegade shepard said to TIM "Trying to understand/compromise with the reapers is sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated" not the exact words but close enough.  

Being paragon... I still agree with that. Reapers are not to be nagotiated with.

Even when my Shepard said: "So, Illusive man was right...", to the Starchild.

even paragon shep makes it clear to TIM that they want to destroy the reapers. 

[Arppis]

Bigdoser wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

As renegade shepard said to TIM "Trying to understand/compromise with the reapers is sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated" not the exact words but close enough.  

Being paragon... I still agree with that. Reapers are not to be nagotiated with.

Even when my Shepard said: "So, Illusive man was right...", to the Starchild.

even paragon shep makes it clear to TIM that they want to destroy the reapers. 

Yeah, but he does say that to the Starchild. He says that "So... Illusive Man was right after all..." when the blue option comes up. It's suposed to be Paragon option. But I don't buy it for one second.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Bigdoser wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

As renegade shepard said to TIM "Trying to understand/compromise with the reapers is sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated" not the exact words but close enough.  

Being paragon... I still agree with that. Reapers are not to be nagotiated with.

Even when my Shepard said: "So, Illusive man was right...", to the Starchild.

even paragon shep makes it clear to TIM that they want to destroy the reapers. 

Yeah, but Para Shep says that when he thinks that's the only choice. Wiping out a race (i.e. all Reapers if there are other options) is not Para Shep style.

[Rockpopple]

I know this goes beyond the discussion of the rubble, but....

Look at the choices you're given by the Catalyst and how they're presented to you.

Destroy. Throughout the entire Mass Effect series, not only Shepard, but everyone he ever respected and cared about had only one solution to the Reaper threat: their utter annihilation. There was NEVER even any thought of compromise be Shepard's friends and loved ones, or Shepard himself. The ONLY time Shepard brought up the possibility of NOT destroying the Reapers, but instead controlling them, he was shot down by Hackett. Destroy the Reapers, that is your only goal. That is the PLAYER'S only goal.

But the Catalyst tells you Destroy is an awful option. It's red and scary. It'll destroy all synthetic life, like the Geth. Even you would be destroyed. And even if you do choose Destroy, there's nothing that says Synthetic life wouldn't rise again and threaten the Galaxy. It was presented almost as not an option at all.

Now look at Control. Throughout the series, The Illusive Man has been obsessed with controlling the Reapers, and Shepard had been STEADFAST in telling TIM that controlling the Reapers would ONLY lead to Indoctrination and destruction.

Now you're being told that Control is the Paragon option. That you would die, but the Reapers would be under your control. They'd stop their attacks on the Galaxy. Oh, maybe something bad would happen, somewhere down the line, but this way you could save everyone.

Finally Synthesis. Saren was the enemy who was most invested in Synthesis, and he was obsessed with it because, as he was heavily Indoctrinated, it was the only way Saren could see as saving his own soul. If Synthesis was the answer, then they could allow themselves to be taken by the Reapers. Synthesis was a REAPER idea. Shepard fought against Synthesis every step of the way. Making peace between Organics and Synthetics is NOT Synthesis. The very idea of Synthesis is the idea of the Saren, Husks, Reapers.

But on the Citadel, Synthesis is presented as the BEST option. Shepard would again PERISH, but the Galaxy would be saved. Reapers would still exist, but they'd have no reason to kill everything because everything would BE LIKE THEM. The perfect merging of organic and synthetic. Sound familiar? Sovreign said the Reapers had all of the strengths of organics and snythetics, and NONE of the weakenesses. Those exact words!

This kind of thinking fooled me. By choosing Synthesis, I thought I was doing the best thing for the Galaxy. Looking back at it, I failed utterly. The only goal should be destroying the Reapers, no matter the costs, but the Catalyst, and the game, mind-effed me into thinking otherwise. Into saving the Reapers.

Insidious.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 14 mars 2012 - 10:16 .

[Isu]

Since that considers directly the name of this topic, I just wanted to point out that the 20 second scene of Shep "waking up" (or, just breathing) does not mean that only that playthrough succeded in keeping Shep alive, but may be a bonus for those who played ME3 thoroughly. With gathering the fleets, fighting reapers in mp and all. Some kind of reward, no? That of course would imply that Shep was asleep, indoctrinated or not.

And since the scene where Shep shoots at the tube/whatever and blows everything to hell before the ending scenes is kinda relevant to the topic itself, was I the only one to notice that commander suddenly stood straight and kinda regained strength after few shots (with the gun, of course)? It could be he/she remembered whats the ultimate mission and gathered strength for the final push. Just a theory, one of many it seems.

P.S. What I meant, is that perhaps Shep is alive in the destroy scenario. Over 4000 or not.

Modifié par Isu, 14 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[viperabyss]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

your still assuming that shepard actually ever gets up to look at his surrounds with his real eyes. he got hit by the destroyer, hes down, hard, and everybody thats with him, hes dying, his brain is firing off some last happy thoughts of his victory trying to put his own thoughts at ease, and now because of his physical and mental weakened state. Indoctrination finally has a chance to controll shep and the reapers/ god child/ harbinger give it one last chance.

And how is it different that you're assuming Shepard was indoctrinated when he was blasted? There was nothing even remotely indicating that he was indoctrinated.

Why don't you remove your assumption, and try to look at this from an objective angle? There must be a starting point for you to say, "this event leads me to believe this is all just an indoctrination". What is that event?

[viperabyss]

GeneraI Ripper wrote...


I've played the ending twice now.  Both times I was confused because Coats' lines played WHILE I was walking towards the beam.  I was thinking "WTF I'm right here".

Either way, it's an irrelavant detail which doesn't support either case.

I'm not sure why your experience is different. Of the two play throughs I did, I have the same result as the guy who I linked his video.

The reason I brought this up is because this seems to be one of the biggest proof / event that people say indicating to indoctrination. I'm just reconstructing the event, and try to find why they believe such way, when I don't.

[Arppis]

Rockpopple wrote...

I know this goes beyond the discussion of the rubble, but....

Look at the choices you're given by the Catalyst and how they're presented to you.

Destroy. Throughout the entire Mass Effect series, not only Shepard, but everyone he ever respected and cared about had only one solution to the Reaper threat: their utter annihilation. There was NEVER even any thought of compromise be Shepard's friends and loved ones, or Shepard himself. The ONLY time Shepard brought up the possibility of NOT destroying the Reapers, but instead controlling them, he was shot down by Hackett. Destroy the Reapers, that is your only goal. That is the PLAYER'S only goal.

But the Catalyst tells you Destroy is an awful option. It's red and scary. It'll destroy all synthetic life, like the Geth. Even you would be destroyed. And even if you do choose Destroy, there's nothing that says Synthetic life wouldn't rise again and threaten the Galaxy. It was presented almost as not an option at all.

Now look at Control. Throughout the series, The Illusive Man has been obsessed with controlling the Reapers, and Shepard had been STEADFAST in telling TIM that controlling the Reapers would ONLY lead to Indoctrination and destruction.

Now you're being told that Control is the Paragon option. That you would die, but the Reapers would be under your control. They'd stop their attacks on the Galaxy. Oh, maybe something bad would happen, somewhere down the line, but this way you could save everyone.

Finally Synthesis. Saren was the enemy who was most invested in Synthesis, and he was obsessed with it because, as he was heavily Indoctrinated, it was the only way Saren could see as saving his own soul. If Synthesis was the answer, then they could allow themselves to be taken by the Reapers. Synthesis was a REAPER idea. Shepard fought against Synthesis every step of the way. Making peace between Organics and Synthetics is NOT Synthesis. The very idea of Synthesis is the idea of the Saren, Husks, Reapers.

But on the Citadel, Synthesis is presented as the BEST option. Shepard would again PERISH, but the Galaxy would be saved. Reapers would still exist, but they'd have no reason to kill everything because everything would BE LIKE THEM. The perfect merging of organic and synthetic. Sound familiar?

This kind of thinking fooled me. By choosing Synthesis, I thought I was doing the best thing for the Galaxy. Looking back at it, I failed utterly. The only goal should be destroying the Reapers, no matter the costs, but the Catalyst, and the game, mind-effed me into thinking otherwise. Into saving the Reapers.

Insidious.

Completely agreed.

I tried the synthesis ending too at first, but that was because I forgot which side was the one that kills Reapers, heh... But redid the whole thing and took the destruction. Even thou Joker and EDI seemed mighty happy together.

Indeed, the two other endings seem to be a trap.

Modifié par Arppis, 14 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[Smiley556]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Well, it just goes to show how the catalyst (who is quite clearly not a ghost child in actuality, just how it manifests itself to Shep).

I look at the Catalyst as something akin to a God, but a more accurate description would be omniscient or omnipotent being. Godchild doesn't say "are you okay?" because that is a typical human platitude - it's quite clear as to the state Shep is in, doesn't need to ask. He says wake up because he knows Shep truly wants a solution. No one through the millions (billions?) of years has ever made it to Godchild - let alone shown that determination.

Why Are you here - Godchild is pissed. Godchild is not the Christian God, just an Omni being like I said. Godchild is mad Shep made it there, but it's not like Godchild can stop Shep (or maybe could - I'm fuzzy on just how powerful and what the true role of Godchild is). Godchild is pissed someone so unworthy is the one to decide the fate. That's why bad Shep can only blow EVERYTHING up - Godchild is pissed at Shep and doesn't think he deserves to live/things deserve to be saved.

That's why the others are not indoctrination - they are alternates and better options than killing all.


And, you said Star Gazer is a dream...why not put it with the rest of the "dream". People claim Shep breathing is canon Good ending - therefore Star Gazer cannot be a hallucination because Shep is already awake.

From another topic, thoughts on Star Gazer ending and Godchild.

Like I said, if you guys think Indoc., Shep is awakened before SG ending. Therefore SG ending is the same for all paths, therefore they all lead to good, therefore the is no indoc.

I applaud you good sir. You are probably the first to actually present your interpretation with a proper explenation of how you experienced it. This is the kind of feedback we want as opposed to 'plotholes' and 'you are wrong'.

I am very interested to see how the teaser ending of shepard waking up fits into this. How do you explain him waking up on earth (Implied by the concrete rubble) and not on the citadel?

I can't really explain it, honestly. Indoc. doesn't work IMO because of Star Gazer ending (I go into more depth in my own topic than I do here), and the sequencing of events proves it's not a hallucination, and you get the same future for all endings so it can't be indoc.

My only thing is poor writing. Wouldn't be too shocking given how the rest of the ending played out. If there were no SG ending, this would give the whole "hallucation/dream" theory a ton of credit. It could also just be someone else, not Shep, showing destruction happened but Earth remains. I dunno though.

It is shepard for a fact. The cinematic files are named end03_shepard_alive_male and end03_shepard_alive_female.

As for the star gazer scene, it personally dont think it proves or disproves anything. Shepard is a legend regardless of how you ended it. And the 'oke, one more story' bit suggests to me there will be a continuation of the story, though I admit that the later doesnt really make sense if your shepard didnt survive.

[viperabyss]

Rockpopple wrote...


Actually, you forgot to add that AFTER Shepard got up and got his gun, Coats was still saying the team was gone. His exact words at the EXACT moment Shepard was getting up was 

It's too much! We need to regroup! Fall back to the buildings!

Then AFTER Shepard started walking towards the beam, the Messenger says:

Hammer's wiped out! All forces RETREAT!

So WHILE Shepard is up and walking towards the beam, the ONLY one to do so from Hammer, NOBODY notices him? Not Coats, not the one on the Radio? They CONTINUE to report Hammer as completely decimated? 

As for the rubble, in theory Shepard could have been blown back by the blast. Who knows, really? That's a good question, but it doesn't answer the question of why the rubble is of the exact same texture as the London environment, not a space or Citadel environment.

Thank you for some level headed response. I feel like everyone I talked to have their head stuck in the indoctrination theory so deep they would've broken the record. 

Coats seemed to be making that order based on his observation of the battlefield. An accurate and reasonable process would be: Coats looked at the battlefield, saw no one standing (at this point Shepard hasn't stood up yet).
He then turned around and ordered the retreat (at which point Shepard was up and going for the Conduit). It is highly possible Coats completely missed the fact that Shepard was standing, and Anderson was crawling behind him.

And rubble does seem odd if he was blasted in an open field, with nothing around him within 10~20 yards. A potential situation would be that remain of Citadels crashed on one of the buildings on Earth (doesn't necessarily have to be London), and Shepard survived that fall (very implausible, but again, so was surviving the suicide mission). 

From this picture: 
http://images.wikia....or_Lounge_3.png 

It seems that there are also quite a bit of Concrete construction on the Citadel, and those could still be the remains of Citadel.

[Fjordgnu]

I find this oddly appropriate.

I actually wanted just a clip of "KANE LIVES!", but ... eh, this is better.

[Baelyn]

Rockpopple wrote...

viperabyss wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

ok well indoctrination theory and even a bit in my OP describes this. He never walks toward the beam. nobady sees him do it because he doesnt. hes in the rubble. hes hearing the real world radio and its seeping into his hallucination. like things can do with real peoples dreams.

That radio is supposed to be telling you. this isnt right, why are they saying nobody made it to the beam when im right here... cause nobody did make itto the beam. ESPECIALLY anderson before you, he wanst in the charge first of all let alone anything else. ITS ALL SUBCONSCIENCE after destroyer beam. open your mind, replay that part and tell me it doesnt make more sense.

Now we're just speculating. Let's get back to the basics here. 

What really happened in that scene?



Scroll to 51:00.

The screen was black, but you can see Coats talking, "Oh God...they're all gone".
Then, a bit of white hue, with the female soldier saying "did anyone make it to the beam".
When the screen came to, Coats replied, "Negative, our fource was decimated".

5 seconds after that, we see Shepard trying to grab his gun, before he stands up.

So, Coats reported everyone was gone, then Shepard stood up, and moved towards the Conduit. This is why Coats et al did not see Shepard moving towards the beam, because he wasn't up yet at that time.

We're already through the replaying part. Now we're debating the actual meaning of event. Your recollection of event was clearly incorrect, as was proven in the video.

Furthermore, people say he was in the rubble. He was running towards the Conduit on an open field, with no buildings around. I wonder where did the rubble (which indicates stones or concrete come from). 

I'd love to continue this dialogue (without your "holier than thou" attitude of course), but I have other things I must attend to. How about I'll send you a private message, and we'll go from there? Or does that count as "forfeiting my opinion"?

Actually, you forgot to add that AFTER Shepard got up and got his gun, Coats was still saying the team was gone. His exact words at the EXACT moment Shepard was getting up was 

It's too much! We need to regroup! Fall back to the buildings!

Then AFTER Shepard started walking towards the beam, the Messenger says:

Hammer's wiped out! All forces RETREAT!

So WHILE Shepard is up and walking towards the beam, the ONLY one to do so from Hammer, NOBODY notices him? Not Coats, not the one on the Radio? They CONTINUE to report Hammer as completely decimated? 

As for the rubble, in theory Shepard could have been blown back by the blast. Who knows, really? That's a good question, but it doesn't answer the question of why the rubble is of the exact same texture as the London environment, not a space or Citadel environment.

In addition to this, explain Anderson. He obviously must have gotten to the beam BEFORE Shepard. Meaning that before they say "no one got to the beam" Anderson was actually up and getting there. Either way what we are hearing from the chatter and what we are seeing don't match up (as dreams and the real world don't...just as it is very common for people as they are starting to fall asleep or waking up start to hear things going on around them that don't match up with the dream they are having). Just another reason why this theory is very appealing

[Arppis]

Actualy Anderson said he followed Shepard to the beam.

[Rockpopple]

Viper, no problem. I'm passionate about the Indoc. Theory, but I'm not gonna bash anyone unless they're acting rude.

I just think that someone would have noticed not one but two humans crawling towards the beam, not to mention gunfire. Even if Coats didn't notice it, the gal on the radio should have. It was her job to.

And I gotta say, that picture of the Citadel looks nothing like the debris in "breathe". Unfortunately I have no pic to post to but the OP has the video. It just... doesn't.

And another question, why was Shepard blown to hell by Harbinger, but Anderson got to the Citadel nearly without a scratch, in far less armor? If Shepard was nearly baked by Harbinger, Anderson should have been vaporized.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 14 mars 2012 - 10:20 .

[Smiley556]

viperabyss wrote...

Thank you for some level headed response. I feel like everyone I talked to have their head stuck in the indoctrination theory so deep they would've broken the record. 

Coats seemed to be making that order based on his observation of the battlefield. An accurate and reasonable process would be: Coats looked at the battlefield, saw no one standing (at this point Shepard hasn't stood up yet).
He then turned around and ordered the retreat (at which point Shepard was up and going for the Conduit). It is highly possible Coats completely missed the fact that Shepard was standing, and Anderson was crawling behind him.

And rubble does seem odd if he was blasted in an open field, with nothing around him within 10~20 yards. A potential situation would be that remain of Citadels crashed on one of the buildings on Earth (doesn't necessarily have to be London), and Shepard survived that fall (very implausible, but again, so was surviving the suicide mission). 

From this picture: 
http://images.wikia....or_Lounge_3.png 

It seems that there are also quite a bit of Concrete construction on the Citadel, and those could still be the remains of Citadel.

Though I support indoctrination theory, I have to agree with you here. I am in the military myself and work with radio's extensively. There is a delay between actually seeing an event and formulating the message to transmit, and then proceding to transmit said message. The fact that coats broadcasts that message after shepard stood up says nothing, since he probably made the observation before that, when shepard was still down on the ground.

Modifié par Smiley556, 14 mars 2012 - 10:20 .

[Baelyn]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Well, it just goes to show how the catalyst (who is quite clearly not a ghost child in actuality, just how it manifests itself to Shep).

I look at the Catalyst as something akin to a God, but a more accurate description would be omniscient or omnipotent being. Godchild doesn't say "are you okay?" because that is a typical human platitude - it's quite clear as to the state Shep is in, doesn't need to ask. He says wake up because he knows Shep truly wants a solution. No one through the millions (billions?) of years has ever made it to Godchild - let alone shown that determination.

Why Are you here - Godchild is pissed. Godchild is not the Christian God, just an Omni being like I said. Godchild is mad Shep made it there, but it's not like Godchild can stop Shep (or maybe could - I'm fuzzy on just how powerful and what the true role of Godchild is). Godchild is pissed someone so unworthy is the one to decide the fate. That's why bad Shep can only blow EVERYTHING up - Godchild is pissed at Shep and doesn't think he deserves to live/things deserve to be saved.

That's why the others are not indoctrination - they are alternates and better options than killing all.


And, you said Star Gazer is a dream...why not put it with the rest of the "dream". People claim Shep breathing is canon Good ending - therefore Star Gazer cannot be a hallucination because Shep is already awake.

From another topic, thoughts on Star Gazer ending and Godchild.

Like I said, if you guys think Indoc., Shep is awakened before SG ending. Therefore SG ending is the same for all paths, therefore they all lead to good, therefore the is no indoc.

I applaud you good sir. You are probably the first to actually present your interpretation with a proper explenation of how you experienced it. This is the kind of feedback we want as opposed to 'plotholes' and 'you are wrong'.

I am very interested to see how the teaser ending of shepard waking up fits into this. How do you explain him waking up on earth (Implied by the concrete rubble) and not on the citadel?

I can't really explain it, honestly. Indoc. doesn't work IMO because of Star Gazer ending (I go into more depth in my own topic than I do here), and the sequencing of events proves it's not a hallucination, and you get the same future for all endings so it can't be indoc.

My only thing is poor writing. Wouldn't be too shocking given how the rest of the ending played out. If there were no SG ending, this would give the whole "hallucation/dream" theory a ton of credit. It could also just be someone else, not Shep, showing destruction happened but Earth remains. I dunno though.

I'm sorry but I found the logic failing at "Stargazer is the same no matter what, so all endings are good." We have no idea how far in the future Stargazer happens, and thus don't know if something else happened after this that made everything "ok." TIM betraying humanity and telling the Reapers about the plan to destroy them with the Citadel was obviously not good, but everything can still turn out ok due to someone elses actions.

[aksoileau]

I kept waiting for Coates to say "wait Shepard and Anderson are up." Anderson says he got into the portal behind you but is ahead of you on the citadel. Thats not logical. Plus look around after you get blasted... You are completely alone. Anderson isn't crawling behind you.

Showing Shepard alive is there for a reason. Look at halo 3, you had to beat the game on legendary to see the teaser at the end which is obviously halo 4 now. You had to have a huge amount of assets to see shep alive. They're very similar in purpose. To tease.

There is a reason for this plain and simple. We just don't know it yet. I also believe he is on earth in that clip. The citadel room was all glass and steel. No rubble.

[Baelyn]

aksoileau wrote...

I kept waiting for Coates to say "wait Shepard and Anderson are up." Anderson says he got into the portal behind you but is ahead of you on the citadel. Thats not logical. Plus look around after you get blasted... You are completely alone. Anderson isn't crawling behind you.

Showing Shepard alive is there for a reason. Look at halo 3, you had to beat the game on legendary to see the teaser at the end which is obviously halo 4 now. You had to have a huge amount of assets to see shep alive. They're very similar in purpose. To tease.

There is a reason for this plain and simple. We just don't know it yet. I also believe he is on earth in that clip. The citadel room was all glass and steel. No rubble.

Exactly my point. Sorry if it wasn't presented correctly. We know Anderson had to get in first because he was describing the same exact scene as Shepard but before Shepard could see it (collector base, then moving walls etc) and ultimately Anderson is at the terminal far before Shepard can get there. Anderson saying he followed him into the beam is either Harbinger trying to convince Shepard or Shepard's mind trying to justify what is going on because Shepard knew (thought he knew) that no one entered the beam before him. This would be where I really start to think something is up and that what I am seeing isn't what it seems.

[Bigdoser]

The funny thing is getting that scene with shepard in the rubble requires the highest amount of EMS to get that scene you need to pick destory and have a ems of 4000+ if you "saved" anderson and if you did not you need 5000 ems. As my renshep said "Don't try and compromise/understand the reapers" I think legion would approve of the destory ending personally if you remembered what he said at the end of me2 if you destroyed the base. 


edit:Some people also ask why is the destory option only there if you have low ems. My reasoning is that harbinger does not bother trying to indoctrinate you since they are kicking your ass since you have low ems so whats the point. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 14 mars 2012 - 10:37 .

[Wolvy]

 Howdy all, 

I have been thinking about this for days now and watching the forums and posted a few times on the endings thread started.  The game was amazing for me and absolutely a blast to play. I am not a huge fan of the endings either but have come to grips with them. I have read both of Tiax's threads so here is my thoughts and question(s). 

I may have to play a sceond time to see everything you all are talking about but I remember the whole dream walking scene and on the citadel. I, like, others picked the synthesis because I thought that was the best answer. But after reading about the indoc theory and some of the scenes, I can see the point and if that was true, "well played BW, well played." LOL! :happy:

But the questions are this Tiax: What about the geth and most importantly to EDI. Personally I LOVED what they did to EDI and her maturing from 2 to 3. So if it was all a dream sequence or Shepard battling indoctrination, and you chose the destroy option and wake up at the end, what would happen to EDI? I am guessing it wouldn't destory her if he did choose to destroy the reapers? Does the child state that about all synthetic life dying to scare Shepard? I chose the green version because if it was me, I couldn't bring myself to kill EDI. I would have happily sacrificed myself for my crew.

And to me the whole gasping at the end to show he was alive kind of reminds me of the gasp someone would take after CPR from drowning, or a heart attack when I hear it.  I guess you could say like you see in the movies when someone dies and then is revived. that first gasp for air. lol

[Mcfly616]

Glad you made this thread Tiax(you saved me the trouble) I've said it on several other threads pertaining to the indoctrination theory. The footage of Shepard regaining consciousness is simply pure evidence that everything after Harbinger hits him with the beam, is either indoctrination or a dream. It's irrefutable. none of the Nay-sayers would give me their explanation for it on the other threads. They would just dodge it because there is no other explanation other than indoc/dream. I they're in denial of what there eyes see after the credits

[Smiley556]

Baelyn wrote...

aksoileau wrote...

I kept waiting for Coates to say "wait Shepard and Anderson are up." Anderson says he got into the portal behind you but is ahead of you on the citadel. Thats not logical. Plus look around after you get blasted... You are completely alone. Anderson isn't crawling behind you.

Showing Shepard alive is there for a reason. Look at halo 3, you had to beat the game on legendary to see the teaser at the end which is obviously halo 4 now. You had to have a huge amount of assets to see shep alive. They're very similar in purpose. To tease.

There is a reason for this plain and simple. We just don't know it yet. I also believe he is on earth in that clip. The citadel room was all glass and steel. No rubble.

Exactly my point. Sorry if it wasn't presented correctly. We know Anderson had to get in first because he was describing the same exact scene as Shepard but before Shepard could see it (collector base, then moving walls etc) and ultimately Anderson is at the terminal far before Shepard can get there. Anderson saying he followed him into the beam is either Harbinger trying to convince Shepard or Shepard's mind trying to justify what is going on because Shepard knew (thought he knew) that no one entered the beam before him. This would be where I really start to think something is up and that what I am seeing isn't what it seems.

Not to mention he describes being in the room that looks like the collector base and stating that is where he is now, and you cannot see him, even though you can see the entire length of the room. He then describes the chasm he is crossing, while you are overlooking the chasm, and you cannot see him. Add into the mix the fact that he apperently came in after you. If he passes your seemingly lifeless body, why is he calling for you over the radio?

[Bigdoser]

 Credits to Mr Gogeta34 for the post here is what he put down in another topic.
Reposting in case people missed it

More fuel for the Hallucination/Indoctrination Theory fire:

Collector's tried to take Shepard's body under Harbinger in ME2. "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" is a line by Harbinger that proves that the Reapers wanted Shepard for a long time... and perhaps even anticipated that Shepard would be their final element necessary for victory.
"We are the beginning, you are the end."
"Why do you resists us, Shepard?"
"I am the Harbinger of your perfection."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance."
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard."

Naturally though, that didn't work out...
"You have failed... we will find another way..." - Harbinger (ME2)

In Arrival, Harbinger makes it clear (under no uncertain terms) that he wants Shepard's mind. Object Rho did render Shepard unconscious and apparently, prior to that, Harbinger was trying to indoctrinate Shepard... but his will had been too strong.

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

Shepard could've very well been "infected" by Rho's final shockwave, and when he came to... indoctrination began seeping in (with the ME3 Kid being its very first real manifestation). However this too, ultimately failed in its intention.

"Shepard, you have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability... dust struggling against cosmic winds." -Harbinger (Arrival


"Know this as you die in vain... your time will come. Your species will fall." -Harbinger
(kinda sounds like some of ME3's endings)


So Harbinger tries something more creative to Indoctrinate Shepard... one that he may have learned from The Illusive Man... appealing to his compassionate side via child and his own sense of morality (Paragon/Renegade).

Also note that the same Renegade choice (Destroy ending) can play out in 2 unique ways... Whereas one is the "best" ending (with Shepard surviving)... the other Renegade choice kills everyone and obliterates everything. Such unique endings from the same choice only furthers the likelyhood of illusion.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 14 mars 2012 - 10:42 .