631 réponses à ce sujet

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Shep is a legend in S G, which means no matter what, he STOPPED the Reapers. End of discussion. He cannot have been indoctrinated (which happened with anything but destroy, according to the theory) and stopped the Reapers. So even if somehow, some way, humanity beat the Reapers (which is impossible if he dies, but for sake of argument) then he would have gone to the enemy. But really, he gets indoc'd, Reapers win, and kill everyone. How the heck would he become an eternal legend and hero for doing that? And TiM is an AWFUL choice - he will go down for eternity as a villain who almost killed humanity.

if shep died during the final charge but the galactic force he assembled still won he wouldnt be a legend?

he doesnt have to be the one the pushes the magic kill all reapers button to still be the sole driving force as to why the galaxy beat the reapers. There is no specifics at all in stargazer o disprove indoc theory.

live, die, indoc or no, Shep is already a legend before the charge

Sure, "The Shepard" is immortalized for all eternity because he failed. The kid wants to hear more about the guy who chose to be indoctrinated and sided with the enemy.

Did you see the same ending I did? If Shep fails/gets indoctrinated, there is no winning. The Reapers kill everyone because they retreat. If he doesn't end them there, how do they get stopped? They don't.

Kids are curious. I dont know about your childhood but I spend my entire childhood asking why and tell me more. The stargazer kid does the same, I see nothing wierd with that, wether shepard saved the galaxy or not.

Dude, you're being ridiculous here to support your theory. I can say "gee, it makes no sense Shep is back on Earth after". You are being obtuse purposefully.

So you're telling me after hearing about WWII in its entirety, you'd say "Mommy, tell me another story about The Hitler!" which also implies two things: since it is not Cmdr. Shep, or Shep, but "THE Shep" he is a legend. And two, tell me ANOTHER story about the Shep means the whole story was about him. I dunno where you come from, but where I'm from we don't tell our stories of war victories through the lens of a villain. So, stop reaching, please.

[Smiley556]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

IF Indoc. is true, S G happens villain or not. And that is not how you speak of a Villain in S G.

What the... Really, watch the video again, right now. 
 
They DONT speak about shepard. At all. So how you can make any statements about how he speaks of shepard is beyond me.

And hitler was an example of stories we tell about people who didnt save the world (on the contrary). It was a reacting to you stating they revered shepard as a legend Only because they were telling stories about him.

Modifié par Smiley556, 14 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Apathy1989 wrote...

Rulycar wrote...

Problem:
... BioWare promised you do not have to play MP to get best ending.
... 4000 EMS requires MP.
... Most would agree, Shepard living must be best ending.
... Would BioWare lie? (err ... logic error detected)

Pretty sure I got 5000 EMS without MP, just play perfectly.

10,000 EMS is impossible, so knock it off.

[JackofStaves]

[quote]Smiley556 wrote...



[/quote]

You chose synthesis because you couldnt bring yourself to kill EDI. You would fail horribly irl if the reapers would try to indoctrinate you. They dont play fair, they will use your sentiment against you.

I should also point out that CPR in movies is the most horribly innacurate bull**** ever in hollywood. Fact: CPR CANT REVIVE YOU. Please for the love of everything spread this word, for people seem to totally think hollywood is accurate.

[/quote]

One point here.  While CPR isn't nearly as effective as portrayed, it can, and does save lives every day.  I've been in healthcare for more than twenty years, and half of that was as a field medic for the Army.  Don't do CPR and people die.  Do CPR and they at least have a chance, albeit a small one.

Sorry, it's a soapbox thing for me....

[Captiosus77]

Rockpopple wrote...
This kind of thinking fooled me. By choosing Synthesis, I thought I was doing the best thing for the Galaxy. Looking back at it, I failed utterly. The only goal should be destroying the Reapers, no matter the costs, but the Catalyst, and the game, mind-effed me into thinking otherwise. Into saving the Reapers.

Insidious.

You gotta admit seeing the circuit paths on the leaves in the crash landing scene was pretty impressive, at least. That little detail and Joker/EDI were the only things I liked abut the Synthesis ending scene.

Hooray for quick saves!

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...



no, im sorry but you ARE wrong, please let me explain.   If you see stargazer, then the galaxy wins. not necessarily shepard. but through shepards actions he does what no man could ever do. unite the galaxy to beat the reaapers and lead the charge. shep doesnt need to live to be a hero and legendary and at that point you have already assembled the force that will beat the reapers, so dying only makes you a martyr. but you are still a legend.

stargazer never says shep pushed the kill reapers button. not even close. but the story of the galaxy beating the reapers IS shepards story get it?

hahahahahaha. So the guy turns villain, but it's still his story? Like I said, reaching because you can't accept the ending as is. It's over. No indoc. It happened. Imagine for yourself how civilization continued.

[savionen]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Glad you made this thread Tiax(you saved me the trouble) I've said it on several other threads pertaining to the indoctrination theory. The footage of Shepard regaining consciousness is simply pure evidence that everything after Harbinger hits him with the beam, is either indoctrination or a dream. It's irrefutable. none of the Nay-sayers would give me their explanation for it on the other threads. They would just dodge it because there is no other explanation other than indoc/dream. I they're in denial of what there eyes see after the credits

Explain Star Gazer, not a dream, not a hallucation, being same for all choices then?

Ill repost this from earlier in case you didn't see it and it got lost:

I'm sorry but I found the logic failing at "Stargazer is the same no matter what, so all endings are good." We have no idea how far in the future Stargazer happens, and thus don't know if something else happened after this that made everything "ok." TIM betraying humanity and telling the Reapers about the plan to destroy them with the Citadel was obviously not good, but everything can still turn out ok due to someone elses actions.

Shep is a legend in S G, which means no matter what, he STOPPED the Reapers. End of discussion. He cannot have been indoctrinated (which happened with anything but destroy, according to the theory) and stopped the Reapers. So even if somehow, some way, humanity beat the Reapers (which is impossible if he dies, but for sake of argument) then he would have gone to the enemy. But really, he gets indoc'd, Reapers win, and kill everyone. How the heck would he become an eternal legend and hero for doing that? And TiM is an AWFUL choice - he will go down for eternity as a villain who almost killed humanity.

He's fighting indoctrination, and you suceed with Destroy. Therefore Shepard is NOT indoctrinated, its that Harbinger was attempting it. All of this goes with the assumption that the actual ending hasn't happened yet.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

IF Indoc. is true, S G happens villain or not. And that is not how you speak of a Villain in S G.

What the... Really, watch the video again, right now. 
 
They DONT speak about shepard. At all. So how you can make any statements about how he speaks of shepard is beyond me.

And hitler was an example of stories we tell about people who didnt save the world (on the contrary). It was a reacting to you stating they revered shepard as a legend Only because they were telling stories about him.

www.WTF.com

"Tell me ANOTHER story about THE SHEPARD"

Thank you for playing.

[Tiax Rules All]

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

[Wolvy]

Smiley556 wrote...

ronbo_68 wrote...

 Howdy all, 

I have been thinking about this for days now and watching the forums and posted a few times on the endings thread started.  The game was amazing for me and absolutely a blast to play. I am not a huge fan of the endings either but have come to grips with them. I have read both of Tiax's threads so here is my thoughts and question(s). 

I may have to play a sceond time to see everything you all are talking about but I remember the whole dream walking scene and on the citadel. I, like, others picked the synthesis because I thought that was the best answer. But after reading about the indoc theory and some of the scenes, I can see the point and if that was true, "well played BW, well played." LOL! :happy:

But the questions are this Tiax: What about the geth and most importantly to EDI. Personally I LOVED what they did to EDI and her maturing from 2 to 3. So if it was all a dream sequence or Shepard battling indoctrination, and you chose the destroy option and wake up at the end, what would happen to EDI? I am guessing it wouldn't destory her if he did choose to destroy the reapers? Does the child state that about all synthetic life dying to scare Shepard? I chose the green version because if it was me, I couldn't bring myself to kill EDI. I would have happily sacrificed myself for my crew.

And to me the whole gasping at the end to show he was alive kind of reminds me of the gasp someone would take after CPR from drowning, or a heart attack when I hear it.  I guess you could say like you see in the movies when someone dies and then is revived. that first gasp for air. lol

You chose synthesis because you couldnt bring yourself to kill EDI. You would fail horribly irl if the reapers would try to indoctrinate you. They dont play fair, they will use your sentiment against you.

I should also point out that CPR in movies is the most horribly innacurate bull**** ever in hollywood. Fact: CPR CANT REVIVE YOU. Please for the love of everything spread this word, for people seem to totally think hollywood is accurate.

Having finished the game last Thursday and before reading anything about the indoctrination theory I made that choice smiley. :happy: So yes I chose it because I believed at the time is was the para ending because you did save everyone and sacrificed yourself.  But also I look at it like this. Shepard could have jumped in one of those pods at the beginning of ME2 and looked at joker as a casualty. But he didn't, he went all the way to the flight deck to get him and then even sacrificed himself to punch that button to get joker out of there and not even trying to get into the pod. So if that is the case, not going on the indoc theory but as that event and the many events shepard went out on the line for his crew, yes I do believe he would give his life for EDI or any other member of his team. :happy:

Also, I googled CPR and understand what you are saying. I was incorrect in using it is my trying to come up with an analogy as the whole gasp of air scene. and my bad for upsetting you by using it. I will refrain from posting again but will continue to read.

[hex23]

This is just a theory, but I just assumed the "stargazer" end was still in Shep's mind. There is a few references to him being remembered through out the game....I can't remember the exact scenes or wording but one was with Liara I think. When she had the little time capsule with all the info on the Reapers, etc. "How would you like to be remembered?".

It would be a comforting thought to imagine yourself remembered as a legend if you were lying half dead in the middle of a war zone. This also fits whether he's indoctrinated, or not.

Modifié par hex23, 14 mars 2012 - 11:17 .

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

savionen wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Glad you made this thread Tiax(you saved me the trouble) I've said it on several other threads pertaining to the indoctrination theory. The footage of Shepard regaining consciousness is simply pure evidence that everything after Harbinger hits him with the beam, is either indoctrination or a dream. It's irrefutable. none of the Nay-sayers would give me their explanation for it on the other threads. They would just dodge it because there is no other explanation other than indoc/dream. I they're in denial of what there eyes see after the credits

Explain Star Gazer, not a dream, not a hallucation, being same for all choices then?

Ill repost this from earlier in case you didn't see it and it got lost:

I'm sorry but I found the logic failing at "Stargazer is the same no matter what, so all endings are good." We have no idea how far in the future Stargazer happens, and thus don't know if something else happened after this that made everything "ok." TIM betraying humanity and telling the Reapers about the plan to destroy them with the Citadel was obviously not good, but everything can still turn out ok due to someone elses actions.

Shep is a legend in S G, which means no matter what, he STOPPED the Reapers. End of discussion. He cannot have been indoctrinated (which happened with anything but destroy, according to the theory) and stopped the Reapers. So even if somehow, some way, humanity beat the Reapers (which is impossible if he dies, but for sake of argument) then he would have gone to the enemy. But really, he gets indoc'd, Reapers win, and kill everyone. How the heck would he become an eternal legend and hero for doing that? And TiM is an AWFUL choice - he will go down for eternity as a villain who almost killed humanity.

He's fighting indoctrination, and you suceed with Destroy. Therefore Shepard is NOT indoctrinated, its that Harbinger was attempting it. All of this goes with the assumption that the actual ending hasn't happened yet.

Like I said, I'd buy Indoc. if there were no S G with the other two endings, but there are, so saying that Reapers kill everything but S G still happens with Shep a legend, even though he went to the enemy, makes zero sense.

[Smiley556]

JackofStaves wrote...

One point here.  While CPR isn't nearly as effective as portrayed, it can, and does save lives every day.  I've been in healthcare for more than twenty years, and half of that was as a field medic for the Army.  Don't do CPR and people die.  Do CPR and they at least have a chance, albeit a small one.

Sorry, it's a soapbox thing for me....

You do not have to educate me on CPR. I have been an army medic for over 7 years now. CPR saves lives, yes, CPR doesnt revive people, especially not the way it is portrayed in hollywood movies. But I think this is pretty far beyond offtopic

[Tiax Rules All]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...



no, im sorry but you ARE wrong, please let me explain.   If you see stargazer, then the galaxy wins. not necessarily shepard. but through shepards actions he does what no man could ever do. unite the galaxy to beat the reaapers and lead the charge. shep doesnt need to live to be a hero and legendary and at that point you have already assembled the force that will beat the reapers, so dying only makes you a martyr. but you are still a legend.

stargazer never says shep pushed the kill reapers button. not even close. but the story of the galaxy beating the reapers IS shepards story get it?

hahahahahaha. So the guy turns villain, but it's still his story? Like I said, reaching because you can't accept the ending as is. It's over. No indoc. It happened. Imagine for yourself how civilization continued.

hes not a villain, you are assuming that. what proof is he a villian?

im not implying he ever got up as a husk and ate all galactic forces...
im implying he would lose his battle of the mind and die right then and there in London. to onlookers he would be a hero. If he wakes up.. the more legendary shep story could be had.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

[Smiley556]

ronbo_68 wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

ronbo_68 wrote...

 Howdy all, 

I have been thinking about this for days now and watching the forums and posted a few times on the endings thread started.  The game was amazing for me and absolutely a blast to play. I am not a huge fan of the endings either but have come to grips with them. I have read both of Tiax's threads so here is my thoughts and question(s). 

I may have to play a sceond time to see everything you all are talking about but I remember the whole dream walking scene and on the citadel. I, like, others picked the synthesis because I thought that was the best answer. But after reading about the indoc theory and some of the scenes, I can see the point and if that was true, "well played BW, well played." LOL! :happy:

But the questions are this Tiax: What about the geth and most importantly to EDI. Personally I LOVED what they did to EDI and her maturing from 2 to 3. So if it was all a dream sequence or Shepard battling indoctrination, and you chose the destroy option and wake up at the end, what would happen to EDI? I am guessing it wouldn't destory her if he did choose to destroy the reapers? Does the child state that about all synthetic life dying to scare Shepard? I chose the green version because if it was me, I couldn't bring myself to kill EDI. I would have happily sacrificed myself for my crew.

And to me the whole gasping at the end to show he was alive kind of reminds me of the gasp someone would take after CPR from drowning, or a heart attack when I hear it.  I guess you could say like you see in the movies when someone dies and then is revived. that first gasp for air. lol

You chose synthesis because you couldnt bring yourself to kill EDI. You would fail horribly irl if the reapers would try to indoctrinate you. They dont play fair, they will use your sentiment against you.

I should also point out that CPR in movies is the most horribly innacurate bull**** ever in hollywood. Fact: CPR CANT REVIVE YOU. Please for the love of everything spread this word, for people seem to totally think hollywood is accurate.

Having finished the game last Thursday and before reading anything about the indoctrination theory I made that choice smiley. :happy: So yes I chose it because I believed at the time is was the para ending because you did save everyone and sacrificed yourself.  But also I look at it like this. Shepard could have jumped in one of those pods at the beginning of ME2 and looked at joker as a casualty. But he didn't, he went all the way to the flight deck to get him and then even sacrificed himself to punch that button to get joker out of there and not even trying to get into the pod. So if that is the case, not going on the indoc theory but as that event and the many events shepard went out on the line for his crew, yes I do believe he would give his life for EDI or any other member of his team. :happy:

Also, I googled CPR and understand what you are saying. I was incorrect in using it is my trying to come up with an analogy as the whole gasp of air scene. and my bad for upsetting you by using it. I will refrain from posting again but will continue to read.

I didnt mean to scare you out of posting haha, sorry.

[viperabyss]

Rockpopple wrote...

Viper, no problem. I'm passionate about the Indoc. Theory, but I'm not gonna bash anyone unless they're acting rude.

I just think that someone would have noticed not one but two humans crawling towards the beam, not to mention gunfire. Even if Coats didn't notice it, the gal on the radio should have. It was her job to.

And I gotta say, that picture of the Citadel looks nothing like the debris in "breathe". Unfortunately I have no pic to post to but the OP has the video. It just... doesn't.

And another question, why was Shepard blown to hell by Harbinger, but Anderson got to the Citadel nearly without a scratch, in far less armor? If Shepard was nearly baked by Harbinger, Anderson should have been vaporized.

Thank you.

Here is a video of the ending scene (pardon the loud music): 
 

Honestly I really can't tell either way. The rubbles seemed charred, which could both mean they were the result of intense battle (London), or intense reentry (Citadel).

Here is another video showing the construction of Citadel in detail. The title can be misleading though:  

Personally I think they look rather similar. But objectively, I don't think anyone can for certain say which is which.

As for Anderson, that is a very good point. I think he suffered from physical trauma that was hidden under his uniform, that's why he was walking a bit funny when he sat down (after TIM dies). Although not a clear indication that he was dreamt up, but it is a oddity nonetheless. I'll keep on researching on this point.

[NoUserNameHere]

The more time passes, the more it dawns on me that maybe they just didn't know what the hell was going on in this ending either.

[Rafe34]

I'm leaning very heavily towards this theory. However, I'd like to play Devil's Advocate and throw out some objections that have come to mind.

First one: Why does Shep, if this is just an indoctrination attempt, imagine the Normandy running away and crashed on some garden world cut off from the relays? Seems to me that if he's just projecting his companions somewhere safe... well, since the Reapers are defeated, I don't see why he'd project them getting stranded on some world somewhere.

[Zyrious]

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

Modifié par Zyrious, 14 mars 2012 - 11:22 .

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

You don't get it at ALL.

The point here is that the ending hasn't happened yet. They tried to indoctrinate him, and they failed. Shep doesn't actually get completely indoctrinated, they just attempt to indoctrinate him.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

Exactly. Turns out Shep is useless as soon as the missiles launch. Any Joe can now save the Universe, according to Indoc theory.

[Tiax Rules All]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

you are running away from what we actually SEE and hear in game to what you are imagining.  

its obvoius you are not nearly open enough to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that you are wrong.

you are assuming one man had the power to stop the reapers. he does but not in the way you think. one man assemble the MANY men and aliens needed to win. so he did that alone

but it takes the galaxy to win. otherwise f- the whole game and f war assets and just shoot shep at harbinger in a toredo tube and let the brawl it out

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

You don't get it at ALL.

The point here is that the ending hasn't happened yet. They tried to indoctrinate him, and they failed. Shep doesn't actually get completely indoctrinated, they just attempt to indoctrinate him.

ROFL. I don't get it, but you're ignoring the fact the future is the same, if he is "indoctrinated" or not. Because destroy, synthesize, etc. the ending (thanks to S G) is the same. The ending HAS happened. And you can choose to be "indoctrinated" and still save everything according to the theory.

[Alran]

The only qualm I have about this theory, is if the indoctrination is ONLY at the last part, during the assault on earth after shep is knocked out, then the Indoctrination theory is possible.

Some people have said that he was being slowly indoctrinated over time. The 'hum' that James comments on while aboard the Normandy and Shepards dreams are a few examples.

The only point of I have to make about Shepard being indoctrinated over time through the game: on thessia, when Shepard came into contact with the Prothean VI, it doesnt detect him as being under the influence of indoctrination. But it does detect Kai as being affected.