631 réponses à ce sujet

[Chrisimo]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Like I said, you have to look in my topic if you want the full explanation. Shep being awake, then seeing good ending means it's 100% not a dream. And if Shep got "indoctrinated" with the other two options, S G ending would never happen because he would never become an eternal legend, and Reapers would have killed all.

I would guess that the endings we currently have were originally meant to just be one possible ending or part of another ending. But for some reason (money/time/whatever), they decided to scrap the rest and make slightly different versions of the ending they had already done. So the endings we have were meant to be the final endings at the time of release.

Modifié par Chrisimo, 14 mars 2012 - 11:26 .

[Smiley556]

Can someone point me to the video where the stargazers talk about shepard being a legend and or saving the universe? The only video I see is where the star gazers talk about shepard, but what they think of him and what he did is never adressed.

Modifié par Smiley556, 14 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

you are running away from what we actually SEE and hear in game to what you are imagining.  

its obvoius you are not nearly open enough to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that you are wrong.

you are assuming one man had the power to stop the reapers. he does but not in the way you think. one man assemble the MANY men and aliens needed to win. so he did that alone

but it takes the galaxy to win. otherwise f- the whole game and f war assets and just shoot shep at harbinger in a toredo tube and let the brawl it out

Hahaha. So Shep and Anderson die, the last team before the entire force is annhilated dies/is indoctrinated. How are the Reapers stopped, pray tell? You are the one running away because you felt so damn smart coming up with this Indoc. theory, it made you feel better about the ending, but it just doesn't fit.

[Rafe34]

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

[Zyrious]

Alran wrote...

The only qualm I have about this theory, is if the indoctrination is ONLY at the last part, during the assault on earth after shep is knocked out, then the Indoctrination theory is possible.

Some people have said that he was being slowly indoctrinated over time. The 'hum' that James comments on while aboard the Normandy and Shepards dreams are a few examples.

The only point of I have to make about Shepard being indoctrinated over time through the game: on thessia, when Shepard came into contact with the Prothean VI, it doesnt detect him as being under the influence of indoctrination. But it does detect Kai as being affected.

This as well, at no point does the VI detect Shepard as being influenced by indoctrination, including on the cerberus base after you beat Kai leng, it detects that indoctrinated forces have been eliminated and grants you access to its files once more.

[Tiax Rules All]

viperabyss wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

Viper, no problem. I'm passionate about the Indoc. Theory, but I'm not gonna bash anyone unless they're acting rude.

I just think that someone would have noticed not one but two humans crawling towards the beam, not to mention gunfire. Even if Coats didn't notice it, the gal on the radio should have. It was her job to.

And I gotta say, that picture of the Citadel looks nothing like the debris in "breathe". Unfortunately I have no pic to post to but the OP has the video. It just... doesn't.

And another question, why was Shepard blown to hell by Harbinger, but Anderson got to the Citadel nearly without a scratch, in far less armor? If Shepard was nearly baked by Harbinger, Anderson should have been vaporized.

Thank you.

Here is a video of the ending scene (pardon the loud music): 
 

Honestly I really can't tell either way. The rubbles seemed charred, which could both mean they were the result of intense battle (London), or intense reentry (Citadel).

Here is another video showing the construction of Citadel in detail. The title can be misleading though:  

Personally I think they look rather similar. But objectively, I don't think anyone can for certain say which is which.

As for Anderson, that is a very good point. I think he suffered from physical trauma that was hidden under his uniform, that's why he was walking a bit funny when he sat down (after TIM dies). Although not a clear indication that he was dreamt up, but it is a oddity nonetheless. I'll keep on researching on this point.

thats assuming anderson was even supposed to be on the charge at all. hes an admiral for god sakes. hes in the back commanding with hackett. not charging like a grunt. he would NEVER be there. he is too valuable. SHEP is the soldier thats why he is sent.

Shep imagines anderson as a friendly influence and the voice of reason in his hallucination

[viperabyss]

Baelyn wrote...

In addition to this, explain Anderson. He obviously must have gotten to the beam BEFORE Shepard. Meaning that before they say "no one got to the beam" Anderson was actually up and getting there. Either way what we are hearing from the chatter and what we are seeing don't match up (as dreams and the real world don't...just as it is very common for people as they are starting to fall asleep or waking up start to hear things going on around them that don't match up with the dream they are having). Just another reason why this theory is very appealing

Actually, Anderson and Shepard came out of two different exits, although they entered the same beam.

 

Scroll to 0:30.

You can also scroll to 2:05, where Anderson mentioned a chasm. At 2:40, Shepard will comment on the fact that he is now where Anderson was earlier.

As for Coats saying no one got to the beam, I've already explained it in the post you quoted (I believe). 

[garf]

I'm unwilling to say for certain. and leary of hope... but...

rubble. ... our  big bad who we know is out there... Harbinger... we never properly confront him...

other stuff which may or may not be as interpreted... and the coyness of Bioware... I just wonder. If so ... well .. all I can say  is 'well played bioware. well played.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Smiley556 wrote...

Can someone point me to the video where the stargazers talk about shepard being a legend and or saving the universe? The only video I see is where the star gazers talk about shepard but what they think of him and what he did is never adressed.

Can someone point me in the direction where you said the story wasn't about Shepard, and they didn't mention him, like a complete ninny, and then ignored where I showed you they did. Indoc didn't happen. Sue Bioware for not ending how you wanted.

[Rafe34]

Zyrious wrote...

Alran wrote...

The only qualm I have about this theory, is if the indoctrination is ONLY at the last part, during the assault on earth after shep is knocked out, then the Indoctrination theory is possible.

Some people have said that he was being slowly indoctrinated over time. The 'hum' that James comments on while aboard the Normandy and Shepards dreams are a few examples.

The only point of I have to make about Shepard being indoctrinated over time through the game: on thessia, when Shepard came into contact with the Prothean VI, it doesnt detect him as being under the influence of indoctrination. But it does detect Kai as being affected.

This as well, at no point does the VI detect Shepard as being influenced by indoctrination, including on the cerberus base after you beat Kai leng, it detects that indoctrinated forces have been eliminated and grants you access to its files once more.

This is not a problem. Shep is not actively indoctrinated yet, otherwise she'd think that controlling the Reapers is the best idea- ala Cerberus.

But the Reaper tech is wearing on her. It's not like there's a sudden switch between complete health and full-blown indoctrination. It's a gradual process.

[Tiax Rules All]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

you are running away from what we actually SEE and hear in game to what you are imagining.  

its obvoius you are not nearly open enough to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that you are wrong.

you are assuming one man had the power to stop the reapers. he does but not in the way you think. one man assemble the MANY men and aliens needed to win. so he did that alone

but it takes the galaxy to win. otherwise f- the whole game and f war assets and just shoot shep at harbinger in a toredo tube and let the brawl it out

Hahaha. So Shep and Anderson die, the last team before the entire force is annhilated dies/is indoctrinated. How are the Reapers stopped, pray tell? You are the one running away because you felt so damn smart coming up with this Indoc. theory, it made you feel better about the ending, but it just doesn't fit.

I dont have to tell you how the war was won because the game doesnt tell you how the war was won. The galaxy forces did it but as Stargazer says "the details are lost to time"

[SolidisusSnake1]

Thornquist wrote...

Shepard crash landed back to earth after he blew up the citadel, end of story.

Yes, its full of plot-holes.

Wouldnt be the first.

This is what I'm thinking. Yes it makes no ****ing sense but look at the endings...

[Drewskii]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...



no, im sorry but you ARE wrong, please let me explain.   If you see stargazer, then the galaxy wins. not necessarily shepard. but through shepards actions he does what no man could ever do. unite the galaxy to beat the reaapers and lead the charge. shep doesnt need to live to be a hero and legendary and at that point you have already assembled the force that will beat the reapers, so dying only makes you a martyr. but you are still a legend.

stargazer never says shep pushed the kill reapers button. not even close. but the story of the galaxy beating the reapers IS shepards story get it?

hahahahahaha. So the guy turns villain, but it's still his story? Like I said, reaching because you can't accept the ending as is. It's over. No indoc. It happened. Imagine for yourself how civilization continued.

If there are more stories, as indicated, and that Stargazer scene takes place in the future, who's to say there isn't more to the story past the point we see? 

[Tiax Rules All]

Zyrious wrote...

Alran wrote...

The only qualm I have about this theory, is if the indoctrination is ONLY at the last part, during the assault on earth after shep is knocked out, then the Indoctrination theory is possible.

Some people have said that he was being slowly indoctrinated over time. The 'hum' that James comments on while aboard the Normandy and Shepards dreams are a few examples.

The only point of I have to make about Shepard being indoctrinated over time through the game: on thessia, when Shepard came into contact with the Prothean VI, it doesnt detect him as being under the influence of indoctrination. But it does detect Kai as being affected.

This as well, at no point does the VI detect Shepard as being influenced by indoctrination, including on the cerberus base after you beat Kai leng, it detects that indoctrinated forces have been eliminated and grants you access to its files once more.

shep isnt idoctrinated then or any point at the game.
the ending is the ATTEMPT and from there you either are or arent

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rafe34 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

You guys keep digging yourselves deeper. It's friggen hilarious. IF that was Indoc., then no action was taken, therefore Starchild isn't a liar, because he never destroys anything, it's all a war for his mind. So, how could it be a dream if he actually destroys them?

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Can someone point me to the video where the stargazers talk about shepard being a legend and or saving the universe? The only video I see is where the star gazers talk about shepard but what they think of him and what he did is never adressed.

Can someone point me in the direction where you said the story wasn't about Shepard, and they didn't mention him, like a complete ninny, and then ignored where I showed you they did. Indoc didn't happen. Sue Bioware for not ending how you wanted.

Thanks for that reasoned, logical, civil response to a perfectly valid question. You're a credit to Bioware.

Modifié par Rafe34, 14 mars 2012 - 11:30 .

[BBK4114]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

20 seconds after endings if you choose destroy with over 4K EMF

Shepard Lives!
but that is not even the important part at all really, its really about what it means for the nature of all the endings in general.

I wont hide that I firmly believe that this is "proof" of the indoctrination theory. I have created a thread thats 40 pages and growing so far but its certainly not the only one. There I describe indoctrination theory in detail.
Indoctrination theory described in detail

My take on this is that it proves that Shepard never left the spot he was left in after getting hit by the destroyer beam, starting when he gets up and does the slow motion walk to the the beam still in London, and all the way till the above clip, is all a hallucination/ indoctrination attempt and Shepard is fighting it in his mind. Including the crucible going off, relays exploding, Earth celebrating, Nromandy running, crashing and living happily ever after on sunset planet. Its all in shep's head. This is what he imagines for the world and his companions. He imagines them all escaping evil and living happily ever after... THEN he wakes up (above clip)

He doesn't just wake up but its in a pile of rubble ,that to me, is obviously London's debris. He is on Earth, right where he was after the blast. Look at the bricks in the Shep lives rubble. Stone, grey, look at the design on the faces, now look at this screenshot. taken from london, with beam in background. Look at the building to the left. Same bricks. almost irrefutable.


There is more debris around that looks EXACTLY like the rubble he is seen in at the end.

Have you all seen this ending? I truley believe that this 20 second clip is the whole and real ending for the game. It means everything.

Please read the indoctrination theory link I provided if you want all the plot holes left by the "taken at face value" endings filled with not conjecture but theory backed with in game references.


Mainly though I want to hear your thoughts. What does this mean to you? indoctrination? something different entirely?
Discuss...

I have been very skeptical of the indoctrination hallucination theory.  Some things are starting to make me believe.

For instance: Shepard's armor is on --- then in the "dream/hallucination" sequence with the god-child she's in her casual clothes --- then the "gasp" she is back in the armor.

All this is going on and she has time to take off and re-put back on her armor? 

Modifié par BBK4114, 14 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[Tiax Rules All]

SolidisusSnake1 wrote...

Thornquist wrote...

Shepard crash landed back to earth after he blew up the citadel, end of story.

Yes, its full of plot-holes.

Wouldnt be the first.

This is what I'm thinking. Yes it makes no ****ing sense but look at the endings...

you can accept that Indoc explains holes or
you can accept that they dont make sense and are bad

why would you WANT to be stuck in the later.

[Smiley556]

Zyrious wrote...

Alran wrote...

The only qualm I have about this theory, is if the indoctrination is ONLY at the last part, during the assault on earth after shep is knocked out, then the Indoctrination theory is possible.

Some people have said that he was being slowly indoctrinated over time. The 'hum' that James comments on while aboard the Normandy and Shepards dreams are a few examples.

The only point of I have to make about Shepard being indoctrinated over time through the game: on thessia, when Shepard came into contact with the Prothean VI, it doesnt detect him as being under the influence of indoctrination. But it does detect Kai as being affected.

This as well, at no point does the VI detect Shepard as being influenced by indoctrination, including on the cerberus base after you beat Kai leng, it detects that indoctrinated forces have been eliminated and grants you access to its files once more.

Talk about a returning question that has been answered a hundred times on this forum... Dont see how it is even an issue. Prothean VI doesnt see shepard as indoctrinated because shepard isnt indoctrinated. Really I dont know how much simpler I can state it (sorry I dont mean to be rude, its getting tiresome to answer this question, my bad). Infact Shepard is never indoctrinated if you pick the destroy choice, and if you pick control or synth he is only indoctrinated from that point on, not before that. Anything before that means the reapers are ATTEMPTING to indoctrinate him.

[viperabyss]

Tiax Rules All wrote...


thats assuming anderson was even supposed to be on the charge at all. hes an admiral for god sakes. hes in the back commanding with hackett. not charging like a grunt. he would NEVER be there. he is too valuable. SHEP is the soldier thats why he is sent.

Shep imagines anderson as a friendly influence and the voice of reason in his hallucination

How about we stop with the speculation for a bit?

Anderson charging was odd, yes, but he was also the commander for the Hammer team, which is a fact. Therefore he was part of the charge.

 

Scroll to 49:40. Everyone who sat in that APC charged, including Anderson. He even had a Carnifex pistol in his hand.


Again, no real, solid evidence that Shepard dreamed Anderson up. 

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

steve please read my stargazer post from last page and stop using your hitler analogies, they are not helping your point at all.

Stargazer give no details. so he cant be wrong.

the galaxy won, Shep is a legend. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS.

not wether he lived or died, was indoc or not, none of that actually affects Shep Legendary status in the eyes of the galaxy.

he can only get MORE legendary if we are led to believe that ther is more going on after the ending we dont see.

I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

you are running away from what we actually SEE and hear in game to what you are imagining.  

its obvoius you are not nearly open enough to the idea that it is POSSIBLE that you are wrong.

you are assuming one man had the power to stop the reapers. he does but not in the way you think. one man assemble the MANY men and aliens needed to win. so he did that alone

but it takes the galaxy to win. otherwise f- the whole game and f war assets and just shoot shep at harbinger in a toredo tube and let the brawl it out

Hahaha. So Shep and Anderson die, the last team before the entire force is annhilated dies/is indoctrinated. How are the Reapers stopped, pray tell? You are the one running away because you felt so damn smart coming up with this Indoc. theory, it made you feel better about the ending, but it just doesn't fit.

I dont have to tell you how the war was won because the game doesnt tell you how the war was won. The galaxy forces did it but as Stargazer says "the details are lost to time"

HOLY BALLS DUDE!

"Did all that really happen?" "Yes, but SOME of the details have been lost in time"

You guys keep twisting the game to what YOU want to believe, when all I am doing is using what is there and what is shown.

[magicalpoop]

There is no definitive answer, they left the ending intentionally open to interpretation on some levels

Straight from the game director

I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact.

SOURCE: MSNBC http://www.ingame.ms...s-ending-442217

[Nobrandminda]

I'm with Jeremy Jahns on this one:  It doesn't mean anything.  It's just an Easter egg where they don't commit to the fact that he's dead.

 

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

You guys keep digging yourselves deeper. It's friggen hilarious. IF that was Indoc., then no action was taken, therefore Starchild isn't a liar, because he never destroys anything, it's all a war for his mind. So, how could it be a dream if he actually destroys them?

....

Smh.

That's the damn point lol. Starchild is a liar- if the real endings are true, then why did he lie to you?

If they're not true, he's lying to you because he's trying to keep you from picking the red option because that is the only option that breaks indoctrination.