631 réponses à ce sujet

[Smiley556]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bioware did such a good job trying to trick the player at the end with thier real time indoctrination process that people cant even believe it wasn't real. even though they purposefully fill the whole sequence with some many odd things and plot holes to jar you out of believeing it.

dont take it the wrong way but.. you are indoctrinated.

^ This, masterfully done Bioware.

[adawg828]

 Agreed, this thread is beautiful. 

[viperabyss]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bioware did such a good job trying to trick the player at the end with thier real time indoctrination process that people cant even believe it wasn't real. even though they purposefully fill the whole sequence with some many odd things and plot holes to jar you out of believeing it.

dont take it the wrong way but.. you are indoctrinated.

With all due respect... I think its the other way around. People are using logic and proofs to try to question the indoctrination theory, but all you've put up is "you don't understand", or "you're indoctrinated".

It makes me, who have been using actual in game footage and photo look like an ass, since I can talk just like one, and have the same argumentative effect as yours.

And personally while I don't necessarily like the way Steve presented his point, but his point is valid: if this is all just a dream, the stargazer sequence is really out of place. If Shepard is really not dead (if he fights the indoctrination), then we still wouldn't know what happened in the end.

That's like opening a bottle of champagn to celebrate an exam 5 hours from now.

[Zyrious]

Bioware loves you guys. You've turned a narrative misstep attempt at shock value into pure gold through extreme nitpicking and reaching. This is like talking with baghdad bob about iraqi progress in the war against america.

[Smiley556]

Zyrious wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bioware did such a good job trying to trick the player at the end with thier real time indoctrination process that people cant even believe it want real. even though they purposefully fill the whole sequence with some many odd things and plot holes.

dont take it the wrong way but.. you are indoctrinated.

Bioware: yessss....yeeeesss...those weren't plotholes...it was all...a side effect..of indoctrination...obviously...i dont see why people dont see that.

Fans: What about the plotholes before that?

Bioware:...uh..*reads forums* they have it right...the effects of it slowly taking over you...infact, that's the reason for every plothole since ME1...ever since you hit the beacon on eden prime you're slowly being indoctrinated with plot holes...i mean oddities in your surroundings.

So you are saying that Bioware over years time with the collective use of professional writers could not have possible come up with what fans have come up with in a matter of days? Actually, what some fans like tiax and me come up with right after playing it and before even reading the forums, completely on our own?

[Tiax Rules All]

Zyrious wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bioware did such a good job trying to trick the player at the end with thier real time indoctrination process that people cant even believe it want real. even though they purposefully fill the whole sequence with some many odd things and plot holes.

dont take it the wrong way but.. you are indoctrinated.

Bioware: yessss....yeeeesss...those weren't plotholes...it was all...a side effect..of indoctrination...obviously...i dont see why people dont see that.

Fans: What about the plotholes before that?

Bioware:...uh..*reads forums* they have it right...the effects of it slowly taking over you...infact, that's the reason for every plothole since ME1...ever since you hit the beacon on eden prime you're slowly being indoctrinated with plot holes...i mean oddities in your surroundings.

there is no plot hole for me before what i described. nobody seemed to think "the game was full of holes" before now..

The citadel can turn off all the relays. Why didnt they when they took control of it? They did it in every previous cycle. Repeatedly.

this does not bother me. reapers wre still usig them themselves to get arond

also reaper indifference, multiple times in the game organics are underestimated. they never thought shep would amass a galactic army and even if he did they still wouldnt believe that he could win th it. so its carelessness

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

You guys keep digging yourselves deeper. It's friggen hilarious. IF that was Indoc., then no action was taken, therefore Starchild isn't a liar, because he never destroys anything, it's all a war for his mind. So, how could it be a dream if he actually destroys them?

 
he dreams of detroying them *facepalm    look i dont mind debating this but you dont understand indoctrination theory fully so you are argueing with false info.

this is shep dreaming up happy endings for the universe and his friends while he is dying in that rubble pile.

this is what the character wants it his brain putting him at ease...

then he wakes up....

Indoc. theory holds that the Citadel was not real. You guys then say Starchild is a liar.

I was addressing this:

"He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. "

If Indoc. is true, we have NO IDEA if Shep. dies in the red ending, because we never get to see it. Game ends with Shep waking up after fighting off Indoc.

THE ENDING WE HAVE IS NOT THE TRUE ENDING.

The argument here is that if Indoc theory is NOT true, then Starchild LIED to us, since he said we were going to die if we chose red option. We don't die.
Therefore, he is a liar.
Therefore, why should we trust that anything else he says is true?
Thus, he has an ulterior motive for trying to get us not to choose the red option.
And our conclusion- Starchild is lying for some reason, some ulterior motive- which we say is because he's trying to indoctrinate us. The fact that he IS lying is beyond doubt- if the endings are real.

So to sum up:

Endings are real- Starchild is lying, he says Shep would die and she didn't. Why?
Endings are not real- Because the endings are not real, (working off this assumption), Starchild is trying to keep us from choosing the red option by telling us we're going to die, the Geth will be destroyed, etc. He is doing this in order to prevent us from choosing the red option because that is the only one that breaks the indoctrination.

Got it now?

L
O
L

I never said Starchild was or wasn't lying. But the way you present it is this:

If not Indoc., Starchild lied because we lived, therefore Shep we see at the end of Good ending is Shep who crashed to Earth miraculously from Citadel after destroying it.

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.


It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

[Animus2.1]

that ending was my first choose before going back and looking at the other 2, after i sore the N7 armor in the ruble i recalled the start child thing saying that if i destroyed all synthetic life i would be one of the casualties as shep is part synthetic, now unless the writers forgot what they did 5 min before i think there be some hope out there

[Zyrious]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Bioware did such a good job trying to trick the player at the end with thier real time indoctrination process that people cant even believe it want real. even though they purposefully fill the whole sequence with some many odd things and plot holes.

dont take it the wrong way but.. you are indoctrinated.

Bioware: yessss....yeeeesss...those weren't plotholes...it was all...a side effect..of indoctrination...obviously...i dont see why people dont see that.

Fans: What about the plotholes before that?

Bioware:...uh..*reads forums* they have it right...the effects of it slowly taking over you...infact, that's the reason for every plothole since ME1...ever since you hit the beacon on eden prime you're slowly being indoctrinated with plot holes...i mean oddities in your surroundings.

there is no plot hole for me before what i described. nobody seemed to think "the game was full of holes" before now..

The citadel can turn off all the relays. Why didnt they when they took control of it? They did it in every previous cycle. Repeatedly.

this does not bother me. reapers wre still usig them themselves to get arond

also reaper indifference, multiple times in the game organics are underestimated. they never thought shep would amass a galactic army and even if he did they still wouldnt believe that he could win th it. so its carelessness

Except that they took control of the citadel and moved it because TIM told them about the crucible and the fleet and they were hunkering down in defense. So why not just turn off the relays, finish off the galaxy, and deal with the fleet later? Reapers got around in previous cycles too, they can turn them on/off at will, letting only reapers through.

[Smiley556]

viperabyss wrote...

With all due respect... I think its the other way around. People are using logic and proofs to try to question the indoctrination theory, but all you've put up is "you don't understand", or "you're indoctrinated".

That, my good sir, is a blatent insult to Tiax who has gone out of his way to explain the theory in numurous threads to a very far extend, allot further than you dont understand. 

[Tiax Rules All]

Zyrious wrote...

Bioware loves you guys. You've turned a narrative misstep attempt at shock value into pure gold through extreme nitpicking and reaching. This is like talking with baghdad bob about iraqi progress in the war against america.

whatever dude, you see us as reachers cause you dont want to admit that you COULD be wrong

and i see you as a stubborn kid that would rather be bitter then accept a logical arguement

who right? doesn't matter. keep it civil or get out

[nevar00]

Yeah I'm really 90% sure that we're going to get the actual ending on (hopefully free) DLC soon. There's just no way they expected any of those endings would make people happy.

Besides, the Relays explode anyway right? And if the blast is big enough to reach the Normandy, really everyone should be dead anyway. Best case scenario, they're stranded on a destroyed Earth with the closest habitable planet 30 years away. Which means everyone who flew to Earth to save the day starves to death.

There are just so many plot holes, lack of decisions mattering or being brought up (nevermind reduced to nothing regardless of what your decisions may have been)... I just refuse to believe they butchered the ending this badly. It just can't be possible.

[hex23]

viperabyss wrote...

With all due respect... I think its the other way around. People are using logic and proofs to try to question the indoctrination theory, but all you've put up is "you don't understand", or "you're indoctrinated".

It makes me, who have been using actual in game footage and photo look like an ass, since I can talk just like one, and have the same argumentative effect as yours.

And personally while I don't necessarily like the way Steve presented his point, but his point is valid: if this is all just a dream, the stargazer sequence is really out of place. If Shepard is really not dead (if he fights the indoctrination), then we still wouldn't know what happened in the end.

That's like opening a bottle of champagn to celebrate an exam 5 hours from now.

The Star Gazer scene is out of place regardless. It makes no sense regardless of what theory you pick.

If the game is taken at face value, that means it's some point in the future. Ok, how far in the future would it have to be, for an old man to not know what's "beyond the stars"? This is odd because in the Mass Effect universe aliens are well documented, and would continue to be well documented in the story he just told the kid.

Seriously, how would you tell the story of Shepard with zero references to aliens? It would be different if the old man mentioned the space-faring races from the series....he seemed to have no idea whether or not there was life out there, only that "there could be".

[Tiax Rules All]

Smiley556 wrote...

viperabyss wrote...

With all due respect... I think its the other way around. People are using logic and proofs to try to question the indoctrination theory, but all you've put up is "you don't understand", or "you're indoctrinated".

That, my good sir, is a blatent insult to Tiax who has gone out of his way to explain the theory in numurous threads to a very far extend, allot further than you dont understand. 

yeah i have spent alot of time doing legit research on this to not sound like m making stuff up. I made my indoctrination thread which explains the whole theory in detail. its just an explaination post. lots of people like me have changed thier feeling about the ending after giving it some objective thought and coming up with indoc.

i only say you dont understand to the ones that have clearly not read what indoctrination theory actually is, and when you claim that i am making and arguement that i am actually not.

[Baelyn]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...


I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

Now you are making assumptions to justify your argument. The whole point beyond Indoctrination is that we DONT know what happens after. All we know is that Shepard gets knocked out, and POSSIBLY gets indoctrinated based on your choice.

Hell, 
 Benezia is able to snap out of her indoctrination for a bit, even Saren starts to see through at some points, who is to say that even those who chose one of the "Indoctrination" options won't be able to snap out of it long enough to do whatever is necessary to end the Reapers. The only difference being those who chose the Destroy option would already be broken free and have an advantage. This is all speculation, but I say this to prove that you cannot say with absolute certainty that under the Indoctrination Theory, if you chose Control or Synthesis then Shepard is a villian and the Reapers won and no one can change that.

[leapingmonkeys]

Arppis wrote...

Rulycar wrote...

Problem:
... BioWare promised you do not have to play MP to get best ending.
... 4000 EMS requires MP.
... Most would agree, Shepard living must be best ending.
... Would BioWare lie? (err ... logic error detected)

Yeah, I got about 7000 total points and that's just 3500... 500 short.

There was a comment from Bioware that one could reach the required 8,000 total military strength (required to acheive the 4,000 effective military strength w/o multiplayer).  However, they remained silent on how this is done.  Having played ME2 and importing into ME3 and looking at the final results, I have a sneaking suspicion that one can only reach 8,000 TMS by playing ME1 and ME2 into ME3 with good choices all along.  Some of the 'default' ME1 results that I found in my ME3 game were sub-optimal in terms of TMS (such as Urdnot Wrex dying, the Rachni Queen dying, etc).  I got into the mid-6,000's TMS playing from an ME2 game import.  I need about 1,400 more TMS to reach 8,000 and looking at my final results and doing some research on the net I don't see how to play me ME3 sufficiently better to make up that much TMS.  But if those defaulted ME1 results were different I think I could make it.

So, bottom line, I suspect that if one did not start with a good ME1 game, imported into a good ME2 game imported into a good ME3 game, I'm not sure one can get enough TMS to get Shepard to survive.

So I think that Bioware perhaps did not technically lie, but I think that they made it impossible for anyone who has not played through from ME1 to survive (without multiplayer).

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

What I will agree on:

Shepard stops the Reapers or makes them go away. S G happens, Shep is not a villain, he has not been indoctrinated. You are right, last we see is Shep. waking up. We don't know for sure if it is after the Citadel or what happened, that is speculation. I really hope they don't cave and give a new ending, though.

Why? Just because you like seeing 90% of the not being satisfied with the current endings?

Why do you care if they give us an option to have a different ending?

Name me the last popular thing that ended and was liked? The Wire, Sopranos, Lost, etc., etc. People try and create their own realities when they don't agree with how things ended. That's silly to me. I don't want another ending unless it's:

a. Free
b. Does not conflict with the current ending in any way shape or form

No way one, let alone  both of those happen if a new ending is made.

Well that's an incredibly dumb statement.

First off, if we're right, then BW planned this all along and so you can complain all you want about getting a new ending, but that doesn't matter because this was their' "artistic vision", etc. How do you like that argument being turned on you?

Secondly, most of those, with the exception of Lost, wasn't liked not because it didn't make any bloody sense, which is the reason the ME series ending is disliked.

Thirdly, the idea that you can't make an ending that people would like is bull****. People like happy endings. It's part of the reason why the Lord of the Rings trilogy was such a hit, (oh btw, that's a series ending that people liked).

So, as already stated: The Lord of the Rings ended and was liked

Oh yes, Percy Jackson and the Olympians series.

Dragon Age: Origins- there was no indication this was going to continue on.

The original Star Wars trilogy

The Millenium trilogy, (Girl with a Dragon Tattoo)

X-Men trilogy

The Bourne trilogy

Toy Story trilogy

Do I really need to continue here, or have you got the point?

[Zyrious]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Bioware loves you guys. You've turned a narrative misstep attempt at shock value into pure gold through extreme nitpicking and reaching. This is like talking with baghdad bob about iraqi progress in the war against america.

whatever dude, you see us as reachers cause you dont want to admit that you COULD be wrong

and i see you as a stubborn kid that would rather be bitter then accept a logical arguement

who right? doesn't matter. keep it civil or get out

Your calling me a kid and you're asking ME to keep it civil? I'm not the one letting my panties get in a bunch because i'm being questioned. I've considered indoctrination theory, and rejected it. The very existence of the Stargazer scene, the lack of OBVIOUS narrative hints for the majority of the audience, the fact the devs already stated Shep living is an "easter egg", the fact it ISNT IN THE SCRIPT, all make the devs intentions very clear, imo.

[Chrisimo]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.

We would have chosen the red option in our head.

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...
It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

This is a good point.

[Tiax Rules All]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

L
O
L

I never said Starchild was or wasn't lying. But the way you present it is this:

If not Indoc., Starchild lied because we lived, therefore Shep we see at the end of Good ending is Shep who crashed to Earth miraculously from Citadel after destroying it.

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.


It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

i dont know how else to say this but you areguement is just no good. It seems to me as childish and i apologise for what is not doubt going to make you mad.

the choice is in his head. nothing physical ever happend, she never pushes a button. but by chhosing to reject the reapers he beats indoctrination.

there is no one thing the child says thats a lie. ITS ALL I LIE. its an illusion. its a mask over the indoc process.

and please stop writing lol at all my responses I dont thiink its having the undermining results that you think it is.

the end shows sheps victory over indoctrination and the stargazer shows the victory over the reapers

[viperabyss]

Smiley556 wrote...

That, my good sir, is a blatent insult to Tiax who has gone out of his way to explain the theory in numurous threads to a very far extend, allot further than you dont understand. 

I disagree. Of all the responses he gave me, it has always been "why don't you play the game again", or "you don't understand". I've put up numerous videos and photos to explain my point, and he put up none. Yet somehow he clings to his talking point, even when he faced facts suggesting the contrary.

For instance:

the opposite of him charging, beating shep to it, and nobody seeing him is much much harder to believe. all eyes were on the charge with the hopes of the galaxy. Nobody saw shep and anderson go in 

He made that post even when I conclusively proved that Anderson and Shepard came out of two different exits, AND the fact that I proved it is also highly plausible that everyone missed Shepard standing up (which you also agreed).

I don't want to insult anyone or anything, but it is looking more like the sole reason why he finds everyone agrees with him because he couldn't take in words from those who doesn't.

[paul2e]

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

So you people are saying A) there's only 1 right choice at the end, otherwise it's "MISSION CRITICAL FAILURE". That Stargazer is a bloody liar! A liar! C) Shepard is completely unnecessary since even with low EMS like just a couple tugboats and a turian mercenary apparently the Stargazer lives when Shepard gets indoctrinated.

Or, the endings as is are true, just suck, and shepard defeats/pacifies the reapers, and the stargazer is a descendant of some human colony. Hmmm...which is more likely...hmmm

1. Kinda like how there's a mission critical failure at the end of ME2 if your Shep dies- you can't import that save.

We've already established that Starchild is a liar.
He said that we'd die in the red ending, and we don't. Why should we trust anything else he says?

As for the old man- Stargazer is one messed up grandpa. "Grandpa tell me more about the time that the asari used biotic fields while she and Shepard had sex. I liked that part."

Anyway, who knows when that scene comes around? We haven't finished the story yet. It's an objection, but not nearly as big as the massive plot holes that litter the current ending.

What I will agree on:

Shepard stops the Reapers or makes them go away. S G happens, Shep is not a villain, he has not been indoctrinated. You are right, last we see is Shep. waking up. We don't know for sure if it is after the Citadel or what happened, that is speculation. I really hope they don't cave and give a new ending, though.

Why? Just because you like seeing 90% of the not being satisfied with the current endings?

Why do you care if they give us an option to have a different ending?

Name me the last popular thing that ended and was liked? The Wire, Sopranos, Lost, etc., etc. People try and create their own realities when they don't agree with how things ended. That's silly to me. I don't want another ending unless it's:

a. Free
b. Does not conflict with the current ending in any way shape or form

No way one, let alone  both of those happen if a new ending is made.

Well that's an incredibly dumb statement.

First off, if we're right, then BW planned this all along and so you can complain all you want about getting a new ending, but that doesn't matter because this was their' "artistic vision", etc. How do you like that argument being turned on you?

Secondly, most of those, with the exception of Lost, wasn't liked not because it didn't make any bloody sense, which is the reason the ME series ending is disliked.

Thirdly, the idea that you can't make an ending that people would like is bull****. People like happy endings. It's part of the reason why the Lord of the Rings trilogy was such a hit, (oh btw, that's a series ending that people liked).

So, as already stated: The Lord of the Rings ended and was liked

Oh yes, Percy Jackson and the Olympians series.

Dragon Age: Origins- there was no indication this was going to continue on.

The original Star Wars trilogy

The Millenium trilogy, (Girl with a Dragon Tattoo)

X-Men trilogy

The Bourne trilogy

Toy Story trilogy

Do I really need to continue here, or have you got the point?

Halo Trilogy (Ok one unanswered question, but you won the day)

Gears of War.

Even Fallout 3 was handled better than ME3.. I don't mind dying but at least make it mean something to everyone who I saved.

[Rafe34]

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

I never said Starchild was or wasn't lying. But the way you present it is this:

If not Indoc., Starchild lied because we lived, therefore Shep we see at the end of Good ending is Shep who crashed to Earth miraculously from Citadel after destroying it.

But if endings are not real, i.e. Indoc, then destruction never happened. We never chose the red option. Starchild cannot be a liar, because we haven't chosen anything yet, we wake up after our hallucination. Then we have to go forward.

It also makes ZERO sense why we would hallucinate a full ending if we avoided indoctrination. Why wouldn't you wake up ASAP after fighting it off? 

You must have failed basic logic and basic english. That's about the only thing I can come up with.

How can you not get this? I am pointing out Starchild lying as a plothole in the original ending that is explained via the Indoctrination ending- but not explained if the endings are real.

He hallucinates what he does because his mind wants everyone he loves to be safe. How do you explain how his LI is on the Normandy when 5 minutes earlier she was hit by a laser blast from Harbinger?

As for why he doesn't immediately wake up... 

HARBINGER JUST HIT HIM WITH A ****ING LASER BLAST! That kinda hurts. He's kinda unconcious. He's not super-human, just Shepard. It takes him a bit to recover from it.

[stevesyanks17hotmail.com]

Baelyn wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...


I'm not making Hitler analogies, that's your fellow Indocer.

If he was indoctrinated THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS. I REPEAT. THEY CANNOT BEAT THE REAPERS.

No one else could. And if, JUST for the sake of this discussion someone named Joe did, the S G ending would be "Tell me ANOTHER story about THE JOE", not the evil Shep who turned his back on humanity.

Now you are making assumptions to justify your argument. The whole point beyond Indoctrination is that we DONT know what happens after. All we know is that Shepard gets knocked out, and POSSIBLY gets indoctrinated based on your choice.

Hell, 
 Benezia is able to snap out of her indoctrination for a bit, even Saren starts to see through at some points, who is to say that even those who chose one of the "Indoctrination" options won't be able to snap out of it long enough to do whatever is necessary to end the Reapers. The only difference being those who chose the Destroy option would already be broken free and have an advantage. This is all speculation, but I say this to prove that you cannot say with absolute certainty that under the Indoctrination Theory, if you chose Control or Synthesis then Shepard is a villian and the Reapers won and no one can change that.

Yes, but with Indoc., you are saying Shep gets indoc'd, then immediately unindoc'd, to get back indoc'd again. Not enough time to switch - and Saren and Benezia didn't go back to un-indoctrinated right away after getting indoc'd either.

If you choose to believe indoc., you can't say possible - he definitely does if he chooses option A or B. And if he does, there is no one else to fire the crucible to make the Reapers die/stop. Conventional military force is not an option. And S G ending shows Reapers were stopped/Shep is a hero.