18 réponses à ce sujet

[OctopusRush]

Dexterity gives you +1% to dodge a Physical attack, slightly boosts Physical resistance, and adds 0.5% to your chance to hit with melee weapons. Strength grants +0.5% to your Hit Rate and a point of damage. 1.5 (!) points per a point if you're using a two-handed weapon (although that is probably balanced by a slower attack rate according to the docs).

Dexterity could be translated as boosting your HP against Physical attacks only by 1%.
Unless your Health is above 300 its not even worth considering given the fact Health gained from Constitution is much higher and functions against Magic and other effects that ignore Defense.

Both offensively and defensively Dexterity is subpar. Am I missing something or is it more of a drawback placed on Sword&Board/Dual Wield Warrior talents than a real boon to the class?

[tr0tsky]

some talents have dex requirements...like Disengage. Probably not much reason to take it over 18 though.

[JamesX]

Without a baseline to know what the values are in respect to it is a bit premature to say any stat is useless.



If the default accuracy of any weapon is 20%, then dex's 5% is a pretty large bonus.



if the default hit rate is 80% then 5% from Strength is not a very large bonus.

[tr0tsky]

JamesX wrote...

Without a baseline to know what the values are in respect to it is a bit premature to say any stat is useless.

If the default accuracy of any weapon is 20%, then dex's 5% is a pretty large bonus.

if the default hit rate is 80% then 5% from Strength is not a very large bonus.

Huh?  As far as Attack (accuracy) goes, 1 STR = 1 DEX.  The OP's point is that there are more bonuses to STR for a non-archer warrior than DEX, so it's more beneficial to just boost STR instead.

[OctopusRush]

Trotsky: Yeah, I mentioned answering requirements.

James: That's 0.5% - not 5%. While the 0.5% on Strength and Dexterity is nice Strength's main attraction is raw damage (1-1.5 per a point, which is a lot)

The only thing we do not know is the item bonuses, the rest you can find in the toolset Wiki.

EDIT: Higher Strength also lets you use better Weapons and Armor.

Modifié par OctopusRush, 02 novembre 2009 - 09:53 .

[Badittude2you]

Dual wield warriors are required to pump dex to at least 36 for the final talents in that line, crossbows do not require dex from what i've seen so you can still do a bit of ranged before attacking. If dodge and evasion work like they do in most games a 5% dodge means one in every twenty attacks misses you completely, which depending on what is hitting you can be very good

[Zakumilos]

The wiki says dex increases attack speed and piercing weapons damage (bows and daggers) in addition to the things you mentioned. so I would say even if you aren't using bows a high dex would still be worthwhile as long as you are dual wielding daggers.

[flem1]

I think you need Dex 26 for the top shield talent. This leads to the possibility of making a defense-focused near-unhittable shield warrior.

Interesting post on that here:

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Personally, I think I'm going to go with a DEX focused warrior dagger/board tank for my Alistair


Assuming lvl 22...

STR 26 (+4 via two Warrior Rings = 30 total)
DEX 49 (+4 Warrior Rings, +2 Rose dagger, +6 total armor bonus = 61 total)
CON 35
MAG 12 base
WIL 12 base
CUN 12 base

351 HP
215 Stamina
71 effective points to melee attack/51 for range (don't know exact conversion from effective point to actual attack yet)

71 effective points that affect dagger/bow damage

Defense 105 = 45 base + 21 level up + + 3 large metal shield + 12 Champion Shield bonus + 5 armor set bonus + 6 amulet + 3 belt

Note
that DEX bonus to defense isn't even applied yet, of which there is an
effective 51 points (!!!) worth of DEX put into defense.

So a
typical enemy warrior with 60 class attack bonus and 54 base attack
rating only has a 9% chance to hit this guy before DEX bonus to defense
is taken into account. Assuming I understood the hit resolution code correctly, of course.

And
I did not even mention talents yet, as I'm not even taking into account
Shield Defense (plus bonuses to it via Expertise/Mastery), War Cry
enemy attack loss, Suppressing fire and Crippling Shot support.

So
yeah, screw damage reduction when you can't get hit at all. Another
advantage is that since this guy is using leather, his fatigue is only
7.15%, 14.15% with Threaten/Shield Defense on, but reduced by 10% via
armour set bonus and x% via Powerful. Meaning with negligible fatigue,
this build can largely ignore WIL so you can pump up the other stats
more, as it still has 145 stamina after shield defense/threaten
upkeep.(or even get 10 points away from CON and put it here for 195
stamina available after upkeep, at 'only' 301 hp)

Talents
Basic
Overpower (3)
Shield Balance (2)
Shield Mastery (4)
Bravery (3)
War Cry (1)

End-game (lvl 22)
Overpower (3)
Shield Expertise (4)
Shield Master (4)
Bravery (3)
Superiority (4)
Mental Fortress (3) [build's main weakness is mental resist, which this helps mitigate]
Taunt (2)
Deathblow
or Holy Smite (1) [former for more stamina spam, the latter because
main source of mental resist are mages, probably leaning on latter
since it can be used at range]

For now, this is the build I'm taking to nightmare, unless its shown that defense bonus from DEX are slim.

Modifié par flem1, 02 novembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[OctopusRush]

Its not 5% but 1% - plus one percent to completely dodge a physical attack. You'd need 5 Dexterity for +5%, not 1.

To calculate the average damage an attack deals you take the average result of all variables and constants, add them together, and multiply that by the chance to hit, so 70% to hit equals an 0.7 multiplier. When observed in this way one can see that AC and the like are in effect a boost to HP for certain purposes, as they, on average, reduce all incoming damage by their percentage.

Piercing weapons get half of their damage from Dexterity, but as I understand it they are not worthwhile for Non-Rogues as a Warrior can access better weapons due to high STR.

Dexterity is a prerequisite to many top-tier abilities, but this is what I am asking: is having to have so and so dexterity actually a balancing factor/a cost/penalty?

EDIT: 51 points invested into Dexterity boosts his Hit Points by a total of 170~. Had he invested them into Constitution he'd get a 80~ more. That said, when you reach 500+ base HP each point of Dexterity grants the same benefits as a point in constitution or more, plus a 0.5 Attack boost. So I've kind of answered my own question - Dexterity can be very good once you reach extreme values of HP, and isn't half bad in the build above due to a pretty large bonus to hit from all of those points.

Modifié par OctopusRush, 02 novembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[Discobird]

To the OP: I think dex is more powerful than you say, in three ways.

First, if your chance to dodge is X, then your "effective HP" is multiplied not by X but by 1/(1-X).  If you have a 50% chance to dodge, your effective HP is multiplied not by 1.5 but by 2 (a 100% increase).  The easiest way to prove this to yourself is to suppose that you have a 100% chance to dodge.  In that case your effective HP is not increased by 100%; it's infinite since you cannot be hit.

Second, according to the manual, dex increases your chance to dodge by a fixed percentile amount per point, which means it gets better when you pump it higher.  The manual says chance to hit = ~50 + A - D where A is the attacker's attack rating and D is the defender's defense rating.  To make the math easy let's assume A = 50.  (Since we're only looking at the effect of raising defense it's OK to fix the attack rating at an arbitrary value.).  If D=50 at our current dex then the chance to hit is 50%.  Adding an extra point of dex will raise D to 51, which lowers the chance to hit to 49%, resulting in an increase of about 2% effective HP.  Not great.  But now suppose you've pumped your dex and D = 90.  Then adding another point of dex will reduce the chance to hit from 10% to 9%, which is about an 11% increase in effective HP.  Much better.

So the more you pump dex, the more you get out of each additional point.  This doesn't necessarily mean pumping dex is a good idea though--that depends on the particular attack and defense ratings one is likely to see in practice.  It may be the case that high level monsters have such high attack ratings that even after raising your dex to the minimum reqs,  the chance to hit is still too high to make additional dex investment worthwhile.  It may also be the case that the game clamps the chance to hit so it cannot go below 5% or something, which might make extreme dex investment unwise.

Third, dex is better than an equivalent increase in HP when we're dealing with 1-hit kills.  If I remember right, some characters got 1-hit killed by the ogres in the Warden's Quest competition so it's not a huge stretch to assume that 1-hit kills are possible.  Suppose you have 100 hp and an ogre does 150 damage per hit with 100% chance to hit.  Clearly in this case a 10% chance to dodge would not be equivalent to an ~11% increase in effective HP.  If your HP were 111 you would still die from every attack, but with a 10% chance to dodge you won't.

Bottom line, I think it is too early to say whether pumping dex for a non-archery warrior is a good idea or not.  "Defense tanking" might be a viable strategy, or it might not be--that depends on how the concrete numbers will play out.

[OctopusRush]

50% to dodge means all attacks against you, on average, deal half damage or in other words your HP is doubled so that's right. I know this but somehow my 4-after-midnight self forgot about that and just multiplied by the percentage like a moron . The post regarding the Shieldfighting Dexter actually equals to multiplying the character's HP by 10~ or so under most conditions (versus physical attacks).
Keep in mind though, that Dexterity gets better the higher your HP is, because it is a multiplier. Constitution adds a linear static bonus per a point (5). So each point of Constitution you take boosts the worth of all Dexterity points you obtain and vice versa.
You got me on the third point, as this simpilfication only applies if the total damage dealt in a given attack isn't higher than your current HP - which can be true very often after you've taken some blows.

ITT OP can't do math and get called out for it by people who do. Thanks for correcting me.

[OctopusRush]

50% to dodge means all attacks against you, on average, deal half damage or in other words your HP is doubled so that's right. I know this but somehow my 4-after-midnight self forgot about that and just multiplied by the percentage like a moron . The post regarding the Shieldfighting Dexter actually equals to multiplying the character's HP by 10~ or so (making me completely wrong) under most conditions (versus physical attacks).
Keep in mind though, that Dexterity gets better the higher your HP is, because it is a multiplier. Constitution adds a linear static bonus per a point (5). So each point of Constitution you take boosts the worth of all Dexterity points you obtain and vice versa.
You got me on the third point, as this simpilfication only applies if the total damage dealt in a given attack isn't higher than your current HP - which can be true very often after you've taken some blows.

ITT OP can't do math and get called out for it by people who do. Thanks for correcting me.

[OctopusRush]

50% to dodge means all attacks against you, on average, deal half damage or in other words your HP is doubled so that's right. I know this but somehow my 4-after-midnight self forgot about that and just multiplied by the percentage like a moron . The post regarding the Shieldfighting Dexter actually equals to multiplying the character's HP by 10~ or so (making me completely wrong) under most conditions (versus physical attacks).
Keep in mind though, that Dexterity gets better the higher your HP is, because it is a multiplier. Constitution adds a linear static bonus per a point (5). So each point of Constitution you take boosts the worth of all Dexterity points you obtain and vice versa.
You got me on the third point, as this simpilfication only applies if the total damage dealt in a given attack isn't higher than your current HP - which can be true very often after you've taken some blows.

ITT OP can't do math and get called out for it by people who do. Thanks for correcting me.

EDIT: Forum keeps eating my posts. Sorry if this is a double post or something.

[rumOnTheBoat]

maxout dex, you can then in Awakening try go SpiritWarrior archer-like OP damage dealer capable to tank

ScatterShot is a must (Frightening Appearance, Holy Smite) i would say if y cant hit anything, view http://social.biowar...c/9/index/90195

[Loc'n'lol]

This was a useful bumping of a 10 months old thread with some relevant content.

[D3MV4N]

warrior archer build

[Ryngard]

Dex is VERY useful for sword and board. Str/Dex first, followed by Con. I usually get Str and Dex to 50 then con to 30 or 40, with the rest at 20. I'm usually unstoppable and rarely take damage.

[maxernst]

Ryngard wrote...

Dex is VERY useful for sword and board. Str/Dex first, followed by Con. I usually get Str and Dex to 50 then con to 30 or 40, with the rest at 20. I'm usually unstoppable and rarely take damage.

Not only that, but even without investing skill points in archery, a character with 50 dexterity and a good bow can do a lot of damage before the enemy closes for melee in a lot of big open areas.

[soteria]

Wow, two necro's of the same thread, with the original being a year old. Is this a record?