60 réponses à ce sujet

[Behindyounow]

OK. So usually in Bioware games the majority of characters are good, and about a quater are evil. Now they reversed that, and everyones moaning.



I usually have to put up with loads of goody goody characters, so you should have to put up with evil ones for once.

[fro7k]

If you dislike everyone you met so far, you are going to loathe Lilliana. She is materialistic (shoe fetish), she is ok with slavery as long as they are treated humanly, she has visions that are made up in her own mind to make her feel special, she used people in "the game" of politics, playing on their emotions and manipulating them to steal, murder and spy. Lilliana will put you in therapy for a decade if you try to romance her.

Funny all that stuck in mind was her fascination with shoes.  Her predjudices on slavery seemed naive and ill-thought out rather than malicious.  I haven't discovered her manipulative side yet, and when she talked about her vision I accepted it because it was a fantasy setting.

Heck, from what I read so far, you really won't like any characters you meet, except Anora. She should be someone you can deal with and relate very well to.

Anyways, good luck, and I hope you and Anora end up hitting it off in a F/F relationship so that you two can live in bliss together.

What?  I'm playing a male.

[Recidiva]

I thought they're all really entertaining. Enough so that now in replays I just have to bring everyone along. Talking to them in camp is just fun.
They've all got great backstories and the dialogue between them is priceless.
No, they're not the brightest bulbs in the box, but that's why they need you.
Definitely the best writing of any game I've played. And whoever cast the voices should get a medal.

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 01:44 .

[Kalcalan]

I didn't like Sten at first but I'm starting to appreciate him with my new character. My advice would be to give a character some time before passing judgement.



Duncan is a different problem though. I don't know if we were meant to feel the ambiguity of the commitment to the Grey Wardens' ideals but Duncan's attitude at the Joining really made me hate that character. Alistair may have know Duncan's better side but my characters didn't.

[MS3825]

fro7k wrote...

Duncan: He is a GREY Warden, not WHITE Warden. To be "grey" is to commit both evil and good acts in balance for your goal. What gives him the right? They agreed to walk a path, whatever the consequences. If he had emotional control maybe we would have a third GW and 1 more ally for our party. We don't know if the potion would have killed him.

The "what gives him the right?" was a rhetorical question.  He has no right to dispose of the lives of others when they fail to pursue his goals.  That's the behaviour of a tyrant.

Morrigan: "Evil" is subjective not objective. That means it's merely an opinion.

No, an opinion is a normative statement, i.e. it entails value-judgements.  Subjective is an arbitrary statement, i.e. it has no grounds for being one way or another.  If a word is subjective it has no meaning.  Evil is the ultimate species of the false, of acting against the nature of the agent that acts.  The fact that some people attach any meaning they please to the word doesn't mean that it's a false concept, it is just a failure of those can't arrive at proper definitions.

What about the demons? They are far more pure than any human is. The only thing they want is understanding. I call that noble and good.

Why?

More on "evil": Why is it anyone with any emotional control and ability to use logic is branded "evil"?

Branded by whom?

1. As I said : That soldier CHOSE to attempt to become a Grey Warden WHATEVER the consequences. When you get on elevator there's no getting off until the next floor. You don't want to stop at the next floor? Too bad, too late. Or the elevator crashes horribly at the bottom. The point is: He had, and made, a choice. Once that choice was made there was no turning back. That is how reality works.
- On a personal note: I suggest you stay AWAY from drugs... once you take them you can't choose to not to trip anymore halfway through.

2. No. Evil is an opinion. It's only self-rightous lackwits who say otherwise. THAT is the method of tyrants.

3. That you even have to ask why the goal of understanding is noble tells me you're retar... you have "average intelligence" like the billions of mundanes I put up with every time I vote and see the results.
- "I think therefore I am." (superior)

4. You, apparantly.

Modifié par MS3825, 28 novembre 2009 - 01:53 .

[fro7k]

2. No. Evil is an opinion. It's only self-rightous lackwits who say otherwise. THAT is the method of tyrants.

I agree with you, evil is an opinion.  You said it was subjective.

Definitions are not as flexible as you think.  A tyrant is someone who enforces a belief through force.  A person who is unwavering in their beliefs, but forces nobody, is not a tyrant.  There is no tyranny in holding a private belief.  Do you hold a desire to control the thoughts of others because you find them threatening?  THAT is the method of tyrants.

3. That you even have to ask why the goal of understanding is noble tells me you're retar... I mean you have "average intelligence" like the billions of mundanes who believe whatever they're fed as long it's for "our protection".

What are you talking about?

[Matthew Young CT]

fro7k wrote...
I agree with you, evil is an opinion.  You said it was subjective.

Could you define opinion and subjective? I'm curious how you separate them.

[interesting03]

Well...Judging by your personality, you'll find Wynne rather likable and agreeable. Though, i'm going to go out on a Limb and wager that you'll hate both Oghren and Zevran.

[MS3825]

Heh, caught me being more insulting than I intended people to see before the re-write. I need a preview button.

[MS3825]

From Merriam Webster online dictionary:

1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subject: as a obsolete : of, relating to, or characteristic of one that is a subject especially in lack of freedom of action or in submissiveness b : being or relating to a grammatical subject; especially : nominative
2 : of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations
3 a : characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : phenomenal — compare objective 1b b : relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states
4 a (1) : peculiar to a particular individual : personal (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background b : arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli c : arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes — compare objective 1c
5 : lacking in reality or substance : illusory

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I focus on the "perception" part of the word - hence my insistance that an opinion is subjective.

PS " www.onelook.com " is a dictionary link site. Type a word and get ten different dictionary deffinition links!

Modifié par MS3825, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[CloudOfShadows]

fro7k wrote...

Duncan--what a bastard.  He imposes the draft on people and then murders them if they try to back out of it.  What gives him the right?  I wouldn't mention anyone but PC's but the game clearly seems to expect you to like him or accept his rationalisations for his behaviour as valid (since there are few dialog options to protest it).

I don't think you're supposed to like Duncan. I actually don't like Duncan, but I really pull my hat before Bioware for pulling off Duncan. Duncan does some very despicable things - I started as a male City Elf and Duncan provided the weapons to take your revenge. That's about all the help he offers you.
Everything Duncan does is fine with his hardened, cold-blooded bastard type. I think he's a wonderfully character.
And I don't think you're expected to like him, in fact, I'd wager part of the reason why Dragon Age is so great is how Duncan meets his end. It's a good end for the character, and it frees you of having to actually deal with Duncan's way to run the Grey Wardens. They basically become your own responsibility. If you - like me - want them to be more shiny and good, you can make them so - by your choices - if you wish to make them even darker, and just go for results, that's okay too.
The great thing is that it's up to you.
I also love how Bioware managed to integrated the old mentor character - Wynne, I think - into the story. You're free to take her along, as an old, wizened mentor, and she'll be full of good advice and platitudes, always meaning well, but you don't need to take her along.
It's up to you.

[Axterix]

Behindyounow wrote...

OK. So usually in Bioware games the majority of characters are good, and about a quater are evil. Now they reversed that, and everyones moaning.

I usually have to put up with loads of goody goody characters, so you should have to put up with evil ones for once.

I dunno, I'd say you have about an equal mix of good, evil, and neutral.

Wynne, Alistair, and Leliana are all good.  They encourage you to help people.

Dog, Sten, and Zevran are neutral.  Yeah, Zevran is an assassin, but he doesn't really encourage you to act one way or another, he's just sort of there, he's a tool, goes in whatever direction you send him.  Sten follows his honor code.  Yeah, he went berserk and killed the family.  But he is also a big softy.

Shale, Loghain, and Morrigan are the evil side.

Haven't really travelled with Ohgren much yet, but he strikes me as falling into the neutral category as well.

And, overall, that's about the norm for Bioware games, evenly split between the 3.  But I think for this game, the personalities are brought much more to the forefront than in previous ones.

[Aeshyn Stormsinger]

I don't mind Duncan, personally. He had a mind for duty above all else, and had no choice - as he mentions - but to kill Jory, as that's the way of things. He pushed aside his morality and kept to the job at hand, and did what was required by tradition and duty. Yes, real life morality would disagree with this, but Ferelden isn't real life. That's the vibe I was fed through the game, anyway.

As for party members, I am quite taken with Leliana, I like Wynne for her insight and wisdom, and I enjoy Alistair's ability to rush in front of me when I cast Cone of Cold, ha ha. In all seriousness though, I think the only characters I don't like is Morrigan, just because she's opposite to my own morality in real life, Sten because he is also an opposite, Zevran for the same reason, and the Dog simply because I have no use for him.

Modifié par Aeshyn Stormsinger, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:30 .

[Lianaar]

All the characters I have encountered are multifaceted with likeable and questionably features to them. That is why they appear to be so realistic and why they evoke emotions from people. Due to them putting you in a position of having to value some aspects of them and either accept or forgive. My feelings for the characters were as follows:

Duncan was given the task of recreating the grey wardens in Ferelden. He didn't have much assets to start with and just as he was starting with this painstaking process, which likely included fooling people and forcing them, he instantly got into the position where a Blight is on his neck. Knowing only grey wardens can stop the Blight he was under a massive pressure. Yet he couldn't just recruit anyone. He didn't have the time to walk around finding more and more acceptable people. Does he do things which can be seen as evil? Yes. All grey wardens do. He didn't reveal many things. Does he have reasons to do so? Yes, there is a blight on his hands to deal with and a king that isn't taking things seriously enough, Loghain who hates his guts and yet he is forced to trust him, a land to defend. He tries his best to keep balance and peace. He tells Alistair to try to cooperate, in the noble origin story he says he'll only recruit you if you agree and accept the consequences. He doesn't wish for the recruits to die. But he can not stop to think about a single person. For some that'll doom him, for some that is justification. What ever stance you take, you can find your own reasons in his behavior. Depending on your own priorities you will like him, feel sorry for him, understand him, hate him, despise him etc. I felt sorry for him with my dalish elf rouge and I was thankful and loyal to him with my human noble. 

Alistair is a man who didn't grow out of childhood yet when you first meet him. He is jesting mostly and hides behind his humor so he doesn't need to face his emotions whatsoever. But during the encounters he is forced to face mistakes he made and is pushed toward responsibilities he tries to live up to. He is as close to good as you can get, but he also has a set of mischief in him. He is dutyful to the flaw and believes in the lesons he was thought while it might better if he made a few thoughts about them. Some for that think him stupid. Some think him good. He is certainly one that is willing to fight for what he believes in but tries not to repress people on his way to victory (though he opposed me surrendering to Cauthrin).

Morrigan is a hurt soul. She knows that something was terribly wrong in the way she was raised but she has no understanding toward the world as she never experienced it. I saw her struggling toward comprehension and trying to see things from a different view then how she was told to see it. She hated her mother as much as she was clinging to her. And while she would have hated to admit, she too was dependant on the opinion of others (see how she got insecure about being similar to her mother). I do not believe she knew what she really wants. She never experienced having an own will in a way. She was always overshadowed by Flemeth. But because this insecurity that matches her arrogance (which she admits being too big from day two) you can easily see her actions being evil, as well as desparate. She is utilitarist. She says: we should deal with the Blight, who the hell cares about demons, merchants, poverty if we have a goal that must be reached. Let us step over those questions and not delay with them. If fate gives us an ally, let us use it, even if you find it morally questionable, because Blight gives little damn for morality. In that aspect she is understandable. She rips decisions from emotions, and in that setting she is often correct. In a way I had a feeling she is envying my character for the things my char experienced and knows.

Sten grew to be one of my favorite character. He believes that things are as they are meant to be. He was born who he is, and it is not something to be changed. It appeared to me that in his world everything is predestined. He believes in honor and pride. In this aspect he is very knightly and chivalrious. He believes that there is a single right thing to do and we should just do that. No detours. Focus on the goal, he only agreed to help with that. He doesn't say much (at first) but you can crawl under his skin and have an insight in his people and his own soul. He is strong, but has weaknesses. When he was found, he lost his honor and without his honor he lost himself. There is no excuse for killing those who helped him. He doesn't think there is anything that can forgive him. He sees his act as an evil deed. He doesn't care for his reasons to do it, he thinks he didn't only lost his honor, he lost himself too. He thinks it is correct to let him die. He also says: I fight against the Blight with you, first because we'll die anyway, and I deserve that, and second because it might serve as an atonement. He is quite annoyed if you don't instantly go after the darkspawn and gets impatient. He has a strong sense of duty, but his emotions are repressed and under developed. In that way he is condemable, or pittyable, as well as likeable. Anew, depending on how you approach him, you can forgive him, not care for his sin or think he atoned.

Shale is about the only one I dislike. The psiche put into that creature is zealous in its own way and he doesn't only wish to exterminate birds, but he actually enjoys squishing soft things, be it human, elf or dwarf. That talk about counting our breaths to prevent him from simply killing us made me more then unnerved. He is still interesting, as his views on the world are atypical and once again, within its own paradigms and settings comprehensive. He undoubtedly attempts to understand us, lesser, soft creatures. Though I felt his efforts are lacking. I felt pitty for him, without memories who he is, he lost a segment of his soul.

Wynne is a wise mother type. She gives unwanted advice to you. Some hate that, and can not cope with it, it doesn't help if she proves right whatsoever. Others think it is nice to have a guide like her. She has a tough life behind her, she gave up a lot and made many mistakes for which she thinks she is atoning. She sees the world with the experience of age and has regrets as well as many things she accepted. Alas, she is an abomination of her own. Another point where your PCs personality matters a lot, as they can find it a gift of nature or the god, or they can find it stolen time or even a reason for Templars to simply kill her.

Dog was amusing, though mostly the reaction of people to dog. He wasn't interesting or deep enough for me to drag him around.

I killed Zevran and Leliana is too multifaceted for me to be able to have a firm opinion on without having her in my party all along. Oghren pulled some bad strings with me. He is a lecher, and while I am sure there are more to him then the wish and inability to lay women, he made me nauseus. As you see, the characters are realistic. They have their full life that shaped them and added features to them, be that good or bad. You can not just pull a 'oh, chaotic evil' on any of them, because they are more then a single simplifications, such as point-eared creatures excelling at poverty If your character can not suffer them, then he is either forced to pick some who he deems the most useful to reach the goals or try to accomplish it alone. My suggestion is to RP. Give your PC personalities, different ones for different origins and see how they react to the other personalities that are present in the game. It will change your own perspective and make people you liked through playthrough A be hated in playthrough B.

[Lianaar]

Axterix wrote...
Yeah, Zevran is an assassin, but he doesn't really encourage you to act one way or another, he's just sort of there, he's a tool, goes in whatever direction you send him.

Zevran did try to convince me to make an assassin group with him and work together. He tried to get me to say that I enjoy killing. He tries to kill mostly people who deserve it, but he loves the power of murdering. Or maybe we are having different effect on him and bring out different sides to him.

[Taerda]

My Human Noble hated Duncan for forcing her to serve at the expense of her immediate vengeange and she blamed him for the death of her Mother. My Elf Mage saw Duncan as just another power to try to gain advantage over and manipulate towards the Circle's freedom.. My dwarf Noble saw him as an incredibly dumb surface dweller that probably fell off into the sky once too many times and adled his brains.



All of them used Duncan's memory to manipulate Allistair into loving her.

[Varenus Luckmann]

fro7k wrote...
[...]

No, an opinion is a normative statement, i.e. it entails value-judgements.  Subjective is an arbitrary statement, i.e. it has no grounds for being one way or another.  If a word is subjective it has no meaning.  Evil is the ultimate species of the false, of acting against the nature of the agent that acts.  The fact that some people attach any meaning they please to the word doesn't mean that it's a false concept, it is just a failure of those can't arrive at proper definitions.

[...]

I like you.

[Lianaar]

fro7k wrote...
[...]

No, an opinion is a normative statement, i.e. it entails value-judgements.  Subjective is an arbitrary statement, i.e. it has no grounds for being one way or another.  If a word is subjective it has no meaning.  Evil is the ultimate species of the false, of acting against the nature of the agent that acts.  The fact that some people attach any meaning they please to the word doesn't mean that it's a false concept, it is just a failure of those can't arrive at proper definitions.

[...]

Normative statement in economy means any statement which contains any judgement of value.
Positive statement as opposed means a statement that contains no value statement.
I would mention as a side note that normative statement in legal language means something entirely else (it is a statement that contains a norm, so made by someone who has the authority to pass a norm that is forceble and is to be followed by others, aka a norm).
Subjective is any statement that is filtered through the views of the speaker.
Objective statement is that would not change no matter who speaks of it. because its truth is not dependent on the views of the speaker.
A normative statement can be subjective.
Evil is an moral cathegory, the meaning of which is under debate for thousands of years by now. There are various schools that are dedicated to unfolding its true meaning.
You can learn more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil (or tonnes of other books and online sources)
I believe in one thing: None of us possesses the universal truth. And as such, we have no way of determining whose's evil definition is correct. Accordingly there is no "proper" definition of evil. Merely one that fits your subjectivity.
I confess I didn't quite understand how evil as a concenpt can be false or correct as it is not a concept but a cathegory, but I am open to conversation on that part if you wish to elaborate.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually Shale is not evil. The reason why Shale dislikes birds is because for 30 years she was paralyzed (but saw everything in the village) and birds used her as a toliet. She dislikes soft squish things because they all treated her badly and not as a friend. Shale has no good memories over the last part of her life. If you treat Shale nicely and give the necessary gifts, Shale becomes quite loyal to the character.
Zevran is an interesting character if you do not kill him. He has an interesting story. If you get his approval rating high enough you will see the change and learn the story. All the characters are not good or evil. They are different shades of grey, even Leliana.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:35 .

[Ahisgewaya]

fro7k wrote...

Leliana--don't know about her yet, she seems straightforward enough but there's probably a bombshell waiting around the corner.

Here's the bombshell:

She's a racist

[Ahisgewaya]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MS3825 wrote...

Sten - I didn't have the persuasion to get him sadly. I'll comment anyway: Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. "Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a b****?" (Quote from "Chapelle Show")

You can easily pick the lock to his cage though. I remember doing that.

JNot to mention you can tell the stupid preistess that you're taking the key whether she likes it or not, and then she hands it over. You get a nice boost to Morrigan's approval too.

[Ahisgewaya]

MS3825 wrote...

From Merriam Webster online dictionary:

5 : lacking in reality or substance : illusory

IE:  Lelianna

[PatT2]

FroK7, you have missed some things. I didn't read all the other posts, I'll reply to your original post.



Duncan. When he kills Jory, 1) Jory said "there's no GLORY in this" so Jory is just in it for the Glory, (hmm..funny, that) and when he realizes there's sacrifice, it's no longer "cool" and 2) Jory pulls his sword first. But by now he's become a witness to a secret ritual. He can't walk out alive.

Think of all that what you will. But Ser Jory was in it only for the Glory and he was a whiny coward.

Alistair's approval of Duncan makes more sense, considering the above.

Sten. Sheesh. Did you get his sword? Did you read his codex entry? Did you talk to him? HE PANICKED! He had that sword molded to his hand and it had never left him before. He was without honor without it. He did not kill that family in cold blood. He killed it in a panic. He could not go home. He failed (in his mind). He even waited to be arrested for a number of days. He surrender. Maybe his type of honor is unfamiliar to me, but I think it makes sense. Did you do his personal quest?

Are you reading or skipping the dialog? Have you tried to understand the characters, or are you just wanting to get to the next action?

The characters, are, I suppose, what you make of them. I found them each intriguing and interesting and delicious. But I took the time to probe to learn what made each one tick. If you really talk to Morrigan, she turns out to have a soft heart and seems to be a troubled girl underneath all that bluster. You just picked dialog options that didn't get you there.

Sorry. Try again. They all ended up in friendly territory for me, and even mostly toward each other. Sten and Alistair have great respect for one another. It's in how you play it, and you can make it what you want. I see you didn't like the results of your choices. Why blame Bioware? Make different choices.

[blauregen]

The Dog has a few banters. I think Wynne actually managed to traumatize the poor animal with her ideas regarding it's beautification.

[CJohnJones]

Regarding Duncan: drafting people into the military has been pretty normal for centuries, as has been the shooting of deserters. Jory wanted to desert.