59 réponses à ce sujet

[Kitsune413]

Honestly, I'm a bit embarrased that this will be my first post here.

I'm just curious about a counter point thats been made. The perversion of Artistic Freedom:

Do you think the Artistic Freedom being presented to us is true and pure?

The argument assumes that the ending was a vision from the creators of the art. Commisioned Art still gives some room for artistic freedom but with an established goal. Typically through money.

So my question is: Do you believe the ending is what the visionary artists wanted? Can it have been corrupted or influenced by outside influences?

If, say, the ending was mandated to be a certain way. Influenced by factors that have nothing to do with with the wants or designs of the author is it actually Artistic Freedom?

If Artistic Freedom was perverted or subverted is it still Artistic Freedom? Just curious what people think.

[GnusmasTHX]

This implies BioWare thought about it beforehand. They don't do that.

[Koobarex]

Working in the gamedev business I can tell you that A LOT of stuff - especially when the deadlines are closing in - are actually dictated by the producers, budgets, timing, surveys, even real world events (I once worked on a project with a giant flood being a part of the storyline... and then the gigantic tsunami came and flooded the news)... And that's talking about games with 1/500th of Mass Effect's budget.

Maybe the artists wanted it this way, maybe not - you can speculate all you want, but in the end, the endings are something subpar for the customers, to their experience. It's like you've bought a new Ford vehicle, or Volvo or whatever, which you always loved and was always true to this car company... Just to find out it was lacking in a small part, but that this "lacking element" really broke the whole experience. How can you enjoy driving this super-duper car if the seats are just HORRIBLE? So, this isn't about artistic freedom. It's about not meeting the customers demands. Coming short and needing to fix it - because that is good business.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The ending we've been given is not art. It's like being upset at an art teacher for reprimanding a student for scribbling when he's supposed to be making a real project.

[Blind2Society]

I forget which article I read this in but the author said something along the lines of Mass Effect was not a story simply created by the writer but a mutual thing between the devs and the players. He said it much more eloquently but I feel he was right with a game like ME.

With some games and other media this doesn't apply. Games where you just follow a linear path mashing buttons along the way to advance the story but with this game you actively create the story as you go.

Modifié par Blind2Society, 14 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[Kitsune413]

Thanks Koobarex. I think the first part of your post had valid points. People are vert upset and emotional. so I understand that the responses to this won't all be as rational as they would be if people were happy.

But I'm still interested in talking about the topic. Is Artistic Freedom a real defense if Artistic Freedom has already been corrupted by outside influences.

Can you say: This is the way that I wanted it to be... If it isn't the way you wanted it to be. It was mandated.

I'm aware that its a hypothetical question. But whats important isn't whether its true or false. Its being used as a defense. Whats important is: is it a valid defense?

[Adamantium93]

Its not artistic freedom if you're just ripping off another game. In this case, Deus ex

Besides, I didn't pay for them to go bananas with the ending. If they want to do that on their own money, go ahead.

But they sold me the game promising that
1. My choices through the series would effect the ending
2. The end wouldn't leave me with more questions than it answered
3. I wouldn't have a choice between A, B, and C as the ultimate defining choice of the series.

So I paid for them to lie to me and make an attempt at art. And that's just bad business.

Modifié par Adamantium93, 14 mars 2012 - 10:04 .

[ericjdev]

I think any description of that ending shouldn't have the word artistic in it.

[Darrellmeaney]

Tell me... whas Tali's photo 'artistic freedom' or a simple copy-pasta that was photoshopped?

(Look at bottom)
http://filesmelt.com...ist_of_copy.jpg

[Tsantilas]

People throwing around the "Artistic Freedom" argument are using flawed logic. Mass Effect is not a piece of art. To make an analogy: It's like buying an artbook with 100 pages of beautiful artwork, except that many pages have been torn to shreds. You then proceed to complain to the publisher about the state of the book, demanding a proper version, only suddenly everyone starts yelling at you to deal with it because it's art, and you have no right to complain about it.

The developers employed artists that created music, concept art, illustrations, 3d models, etc. The Game itself isn't art. It is an interactive medium. A product. It is the book that lets you enjoy the artwork.

I went to art school to study illustration, and the definition we were taught regarding "what is art?" is simply, art is something which serves the sole purpose of being put on display and admired.

[Paparob]

A lot of people have said this already, but you can't say its art and then toss in a plug for DLC at the end of the epilogue.

[Lazarus Cricket]

you put a price tag on art then its its a product. Don't act all high and mighty if a customer is unsatisfied and would like and be willing to pay for an alteration in the product or wants a feature of the product they felt was not delivered. The artist has a right to refuse, they should not act like it is blasphemy. A customer has a right to demand quality and not be called entitled

Modifié par Lazarus Cricket, 14 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[silencemayday]

even if it might be art - there's still a difference between good and bad art.
and this was beyond bad "art".

[Kitsune413]

Blind2Society wrote...

I forget which article I read this in but the author said something along the lines of Mass Effect was not a story simply created by the writer but a mutual thing between the devs and the players.

They certainly have a relationship with their playerbase. But an Artist has a Right to Create whatever it is that they wanted.

People are using that Right to defend the current endings.

Honestly in a true false way, because this is hypothetical, anything that they create is right and should be defended as them expressing themselves.

So I guess what I've been skirting around is: There is a suggestion that a Corporation could order an Artist to change their vision. To change their art. If they do this change and people think its against the artists nature.

Can they, should they, claim that artistic expression shouldn't be tampered with?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Tsantilas wrote...

People throwing around the "Artistic Freedom" argument are using flawed logic. Mass Effect is not a piece of art. To make an analogy: It's like buying an artbook with 100 pages of beautiful artwork, except that many pages have been torn to shreds. You then proceed to complain to the publisher about the state of the book, demanding a proper version, only suddenly everyone starts yelling at you to deal with it because it's art, and you have no right to complain about it.

The developers employed artists that created music, concept art, illustrations, 3d models, etc. The Game itself isn't art. It is an interactive medium. A product. It is the book that lets you enjoy the artwork.

I went to art school to study illustration, and the definition we were taught regarding "what is art?" is simply, art is something which serves the sole purpose of being put on display and admired.

Exactly And it is pretty funny here. As you say, Bioware employs artists in the making of their games. Imagine Bioware telling the illustrators "Okay, we're going to design a new race called the Asari. We want them to be blue". If the illustrator makes them green, no one would cry "you can't change art!". They would say "Hey buddy, you screwed up".

But for some odd reason, gaming journalists don't apply the same logic here. As consumers, apparently we're not allowed to demand satisfaction.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 mars 2012 - 10:14 .

[Maria Caliban]

Kitsune413 wrote...

Do you think the Artistic Freedom being presented to us is true and pure?

I question whether any artistry can be pure and true. Even moreso for a game that cost millions of dollars to make and involved several hundred people.

So my question is: Do you believe the ending is what the visionary artists wanted? Can it have been corrupted or influenced by outside influences?

Outside influences are not a 'corruption.' Art, like everything else, requires compromise and the ability to work within limits.

[kakomu]

All sorts of mediums change to suit other people's tastes. Consider the vast quantity of Director's Cuts and alternate endings that you find with movies.

Artistic Freedom ceases to become an argument when the whole reason for making the art was to sell to consumers.

[leapingmonkeys]

If ME3 was going to be "art" then they needed to market it that way. That is not what they did. They marketed it as an extension of the ME franchaise and that sets expectations. They knew that. And they pre-sold those expectations. That makes them, at best, a commissioned artist. And there is an expectation for a commissioned artist to produce something which is in line with the expectations of the patrons who funded them.

So even the 'we're artists, you cannot complain' argument falls flat.

But the bottom line is that this is Business 101.  Deliver what your market wants, and you prosper.  Ignore and alienate your market, and you fail.  there is no right or wrong, no entitlement, no artistic expression.  This is business and Bioware needs to decide whether they want to continue to make money, or thunk their chests about how unfair it is that they are being criticized.

Modifié par leapingmonkeys, 14 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[kakomu]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Outside influences are not a 'corruption.' Art, like everything else, requires compromise and the ability to work within limits.

More to the point: No art is created in a vacuum.

Modifié par kakomu, 14 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Besides, there wasn't enough tiresome pretension in ME for it to be considered high art.

[Andur4]

See if it weren't being released as a consumable product, and went against everything that was promised, sure. And it had better writing.

[Doomhams]

If a painter's painting sucks, I can say to him/her "hey, if you did this, i think it would be a lot better". They can either say "No I like it the way it is" or "Yes, I think you are right" and make the changes.

What I'm saying to Bioware is "Hey, if you changed the ending to something better, the game would be a hell of a lot better and people would respect you a lot more I think". Now, they can either say, "no we like it just the way it is" or they can say "you know you're right so here is a different, more epic ending"

Just because someone made some work of art doesn't mean I can't offer my feedback.

[Blind2Society]

Kitsune413 wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

I forget which article I read this in but the author said something along the lines of Mass Effect was not a story simply created by the writer but a mutual thing between the devs and the players.

They certainly have a relationship with their playerbase. But an Artist has a Right to Create whatever it is that they wanted.

People are using that Right to defend the current endings.

Honestly in a true false way, because this is hypothetical, anything that they create is right and should be defended as them expressing themselves.

So I guess what I've been skirting around is: There is a suggestion that a Corporation could order an Artist to change their vision. To change their art. If they do this change and people think its against the artists nature.

Can they, should they, claim that artistic expression shouldn't be tampered with?

Well you make a fair point. The answer to your final point/question is yes corporations do. Artists (yes the creators of the game are artists) take pride in their work and the mass of evidence that EA forced them to rush the product is everywhere. Do you think the person who spent a half our photoshopping Tali's picture is proud of the product? Most certainly not, but he/she had no choice.

Modifié par Blind2Society, 14 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[anlk92]

The artistic freedom argument would be fine if Bioware and EA were ready to lose a lot of their customers in future products. That way they could make their games just for the sake of art. But if you're prompting a message that tells me to buy DLC at the end of your game then you're accepting your artistic freedom to be limited/shaped to a certain degree by outside factors, in this case the customer's expectations.

Also l have to say that leaving major plot holes in your story has absolutely nothing to do with artistic freedom.

[Kitsune413]

Tsantilas wrote...

People throwing around the "Artistic Freedom" argument are using flawed logic. Mass Effect is not a piece of art. To make an analogy: It's like buying an artbook with 100 pages of beautiful artwork, except that many pages have been torn to shreds. You then proceed to complain to the publisher about the state of the book, demanding a proper version, only suddenly everyone starts yelling at you to deal with it because it's art, and you have no right to complain about it.

This analogy doesn't work because the product is not damaged. There are bugs in the game but the game is functional. You can play through and beat it. The ending is intentionally done. Its premeditated. Not accidental. I appreciate your emotion. I also appreciate your words.

I don't think analogies like this help because of the emotional state. Emotion is good, expression is good. But you feel wronged about the response that has been recieved and that makes this sensational.

I want to focus on whether or not the defense applies. If its a rational and true defense or if its a tactic being used impoperly.

More than that I want people to discover, or see, the words that will help them express themselves. You are all very intelligent. But emotionalism and sensationalism are running rampant. Claims from both sides are so outrageous that people are focusing on how outrageous those statements are and not the core issues.

I hope to see those statements become reasonable and true so that instead of arguing over how far fetched a statement is people will just have to deal with the truth of what has been said.