254 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark Wyn]

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

[Mcfly616]

Sarcasm

[Doctoglethorpe]

Trobon18 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Doctor Moustache, that is but one sign of proof....the scene at the end of the credits when he wakes up in the exact spot he was blasted, is the only proof you need. Nay-sayers dodge it, avoid it, won't even speak of it....this fact they cannot get around....they say we reach for straws and are stretching things to fit our theories, and all the while that's exactly what they're doing and we're just stating the facts....it is a fact that everything after Harbingers beam is not real. It's not a theory. It's a fact. Shep regains consciousness....no other proof needed.

Except people don't ignore it. You just ignore the fact that its a video game and that video game logic applies.  And it wasn't the same spot by any stretch. He was in a pile of rubble, not the flat area you were running down. It was a pile of a ton of rubble kind of like what you would expect to see after a giant station fell to the ground. Also I don't think you know what "fact" means.

Yeah, its evidense, but its far less substantial I think.  A lot of games can do gimmicky easter eggs like that.  Movies too. 

I think the evidense I layed out, of the companions vanishing and then uncharacteristicly reappearing in such a way, amungst every thing else that is the single most substantial eye opener of them all, and even if everythign else was explained with logic, thats one one thing that simply CANNOT be explained.  Not without ruining everything the devs build, and I really can't see them doing that.

People who are still not believing, I understand exactly what is happenign in your heads.  Just an hour ago I was in your camp.  It was just a spark that went off in my head suddenly as I was talking about it on another forum that gave me this religious like ephiphany as if god had just proven its existance to me.  Give it time, continue debating it, the spark will go off in your mind too. 

I'm having a profound emotional experience at this moment I can't even begin to explain.  All the negative emotions of emptiness and sorrow just turned a complete 180 inside my heart.  It feels... amazing. 

[zarnk567]

I thought the Indoctrination theory was stupid too. until way too many things started to make sense, especially when I started comparing them to Indoctrination "side effects" from the codex. Here's hoping it was all just Indoctranation and the endings we have are not the actual ends.... it's good to have hope right?

Modifié par zarnk567, 14 mars 2012 - 11:20 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Yes!  The most memorable boss fight in the history of games, your own mind. 

!!!!!

[Ardat Yakshi Necromancer]

The Elite Elite wrote...

I WANT to believe that the Indoctrination theory is true. It certainly makes sense of a lot of the problems with the ending. However, I just have serious doubts that that was what BioWare planned as the ending of the game.

Don't think it was their initial plan. But the good thing is that we can make this theory true, if we convince Bio Ware that this is the best way to make us (fans) happy.

[Rawgrim]

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

[Flammenpanzer]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Yes!  The most memorable boss fight in the history of games, your own mind. 

!!!!!

If Bioware did this, they instantly become the Gods of the video game industry. Hands down.

[The Spamming Troll]

TheMadBlimper wrote...

Don't forget the ending in which Shepard mysteriously wakes up back on earth, despite that he was just in space on the citadel, apparently blew up in a massive explosion, and was told that he was going to die.

i think the theory goes that shepard never left earth in the first place.

harbingers beam hits shepard and knocks him out. star child tries to indoctrinate shepard. shepard says no thanks. shepards wakes up(under harbingers blast rubble).

[Rawgrim]

Flammenpanzer wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Yes!  The most memorable boss fight in the history of games, your own mind. 

!!!!!

If Bioware did this, they instantly become the Gods of the video game industry. Hands down.

A struggle that is physical all the way, untill the very end, where it ends up being a battle of wills.

[hex23]

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Theories such as this appear with a lot of popular games with a fanbase who don't want to believe the writers let them down.

They exist to explain away plotholes, regardless of the game writer's intentions. They didn't plan this. You can "read" the plot of the game like Shepard is indoctrinated, just like you can believe that Squall died in FF8 at the end of disc 1. But if you think Bioware actually planned that, maybe they've indoctrinated you.

The problem with your logic is "Mass Effect 3" made perfect sense unil the last 10 minutes.

The "Final Fantasy" series hasn't made sense since the 90s.

[Dark Wyn]

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

[Rawgrim]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

TheMadBlimper wrote...

Don't forget the ending in which Shepard mysteriously wakes up back on earth, despite that he was just in space on the citadel, apparently blew up in a massive explosion, and was told that he was going to die.

i think the theory goes that shepard never left earth in the first place.

harbingers beam hits shepard and knocks him out. star child tries to indoctrinate shepard. shepard says no thanks. shepards wakes up(under harbingers blast rubble).

He wakes up IF the war assets are high enough. Meaning someone blows up Harbinger, before harbinger manages to squash the unconcious Shep laying there.

[Kylamero]

If it's true then it's a masterstroke by Bioware.

The biggest advantage of not releasing the "real" ending until later is to keep people's choices honest. If people don't know that there's more to the game they can't spill the beans to others that picking any choice but destroy is indoctrination.

I picked destroy but if i picked control i would have had no idea it was an indoctrination attempt, i think they will have caught a lot of people by suprise, hence how indoctrination works!

Also i wonder, once you complete the game it takes you back to before the assault on Cerberus HQ. I know the reason they gave was for war assets but i wonder if it's also to help people that chose the indoctrinated options and died to contiue without having to start right at the beginning. Food for thought maybe.

[Rawgrim]

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

I think it starts happening shortly after Arrival. You have to be close to reapers or reaper technology for it to happen. Shep really isn`t around things like that too much in ME2. and in ME1 he mostly fights Geth.

[Verit]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
As far as the inconsistencies in the ending scenes, those could also be explained as a product of rushed work, a lack of backtracking, and assigning different people to work on different things under heavy pressure from a last minute leak.

And this is also the most logical explanation. I never realized the indoctrination theory would be so popoular though, it goes to show how badly people want the current endings to be fake. I wonder what the reaction will be if Bioware actually confirms the endings are the real deal.

Modifié par -Draikin-, 14 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Flammenpanzer]

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

The Reaper's backup plan has been Shepard. After  slowly indoctrinating him, they got him to bring the entire galaxy's fleet into one area for them to destroy.

Modifié par Flammenpanzer, 14 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[Mcfly616]

Yeah they do gimmicky Easter eggs....except imo this one isn't much of an Easter egg as it is a "to be continued screen"....the would've incited a riot. But instead you see him regain consciousness. Inciting hope, that there's still some fight left....I'm not saying I'm hoping its not the end. I know its not the end. Sorry if I sound "over confident", but I'm just sure of my logic. They slap you in the face with indoctrination and dreams all game long....and then reveal the truth after the credits

[Xaijin]

The problem with the indoctrination theory is it ignores what the devs have said outright.

Mac said on camera in front of god and creation before launch and AT launch during the interviews that the ME universe post ending "is a deserted wasteland".

It's simply another stage of denial.

The very not complicated truth is the endings are not satisfying. You can argue all day about whether that was the intent or blah blah blah, and put words in the devs mouths that they never said, but the bottom line is this is what Hudson and Walters planned and wanted, and Karpyshyn original dilemma was defenestrated when he left the project.

That's simply how it is.

Hudson already stated publicly that SP DLC would use story and Liara's history box. The end.

There's no theory, and there's no debate.

Modifié par Xaijin, 14 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[Dark Wyn]

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

Aren't the implants that Cerberus used to rebuild Shepard reverse engineered from TIM confiscated Reaper tech?

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

I think it starts happening shortly after Arrival. You have to be close to reapers or reaper technology for it to happen. Shep really isn`t around things like that too much in ME2. and in ME1 he mostly fights Geth.

[Trobon18]

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

Then why didn't the prothean VI detect any signs of it? You can't just throw away things that don't fit or your logic is no more sound than Bioware's.

[Dark Wyn]

Trobon18 wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

Doesn't the Prothean VI detect only fully indoctrinated subjects?
I could be completely wrong on that.  If so, my bad. 

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

Then why didn't the prothean VI detect any signs of it? You can't just throw away things that don't fit or your logic is no more sound than Bioware's.

[Trobon18]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Yeah they do gimmicky Easter eggs....except imo this one isn't much of an Easter egg as it is a "to be continued screen"....the would've incited a riot. But instead you see him regain consciousness. Inciting hope, that there's still some fight left....I'm not saying I'm hoping its not the end. I know its not the end. Sorry if I sound "over confident", but I'm just sure of my logic. They slap you in the face with indoctrination and dreams all game long....and then reveal the truth after the credits

So even though the Prothean VI doesn't detect any indoctrination you "know" it is. Even though it would mean only 1/3rd of people get to go on to the "real" ending you "know" it is. Even though it ignores established canon on how indoctrination works you "know" it is.

[The Spamming Troll]

Rawgrim wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

TheMadBlimper wrote...

Don't forget the ending in which Shepard mysteriously wakes up back on earth, despite that he was just in space on the citadel, apparently blew up in a massive explosion, and was told that he was going to die.

i think the theory goes that shepard never left earth in the first place.

harbingers beam hits shepard and knocks him out. star child tries to indoctrinate shepard. shepard says no thanks. shepards wakes up(under harbingers blast rubble).

He wakes up IF the war assets are high enough. Meaning someone blows up Harbinger, before harbinger manages to squash the unconcious Shep laying there.

youd think sheaprd would be more of a priority target for the reapers wouldnt you?

[Warhawk7137]

Look, there are still problems with the ending even if the theory is true.  Specifically that it would mean the game ends with everything still hanging in the balance.

But, the fact is, it makes sense. At a certain point, a plothole can be big, obvious, and easy to fix enough that explaining it as bad writing/design becomes the less logical explanation. I mean, in this case, it's a plot hole that doesnt' require any kind of logical inference to make that they might have overlooked, or something that just contradicts the lore. It's something that massively and noticably contradicts itself within the span of a few minutes. It's something a five-year-old could point out.

Indoctrination theory actually reconciles all the problems that arise from taking the ending literally. And it's supported by a lot of specific things in the game, from the dreams, to the change in control scheme and UI at the point in question, to the appearance of the "catalyst", to the nature of the choices, to the individuals associated with those choices, to little details in the scenery that people have pointed out, to the bonus "breath" scene. The reason I buy into the indoctrination theory is that it doesn't need to "add" anything that's not already in the game - it makes complete sense in context, without having to shoehorn it in.

Basically what I'm saying is that the theory isn't just an alternate, convoluted way of looking at the endings. It's a theory that, when applied, the endings fit perfectly. It's not Fanon Discontinuity or wishful thinking, because nothing needs to be removed from or added to the endings for them to make sense using indoctrination theory. It's not trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Taking the endings literally is like that, because of all the inherent problems in doing so. If the endings are a square peg, indoctrination theory is the associated square hole, because it FITS.

Modifié par Warhawk7137, 14 mars 2012 - 11:31 .