254 réponses à ce sujet

[Meatus]

 Not to mention that Bioware's responses are starting to hint more and more toward the Indoctrination Theory as well: 

User 1: "I still want to believe you guys are sneaky trolls and have something going on you don't tell us yet. Can I get a cryptic reply?"
@masseffect: "The sun, it shines. www.youtube.com/watch"

User 2: "You are either a massive sadist or a beacon of hope."
@masseffect: "Can't it be both?"

User 3: "I kinda feel lost after that ending...not what I expected and left me feeling everything done was for nothing."
@masseffect: "We know it's a lot to take in! But hang in there. Your decisions matter."

User 4: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community, a tiny hint would be enough."
@masseffect: "Mike Gamble already said on his twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different."

User 5: "I loved 98% of ME3..but something has to be up w/ ending..too much talent at BW for that business. Keep my saves?"
@masseffect: "We're keeping our saves, that's for sure."

User 6: "Fans are people too. Playing with their minds isn't that nice as it may look like to people from Bioware."
@masseffect: "We're not playing with anyone's minds, we are answering what questions we can and recording what feedback we receive."

User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of."

User 8: "Do y'all have any ETA when more news will be released? Dying for news on a new ending/DLC."
@masseffect: "No ETA yet, but you will be updated via Facebook and Twitter when the news is available ."

And some more:

User 1 -Well, i think i'll stop naggin you and trying to get you to talk about the indoctrination theory. Good game though!
Merizan - I want people to make up their own minds right now, then when more people have played we'll talk

User 2 - then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.
Merizan - augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now

User 3 - But should've confronted the kid instead. Shep went meekly into the night.
Merizan - are you sure he went meekly into the night?

I really don't understand why people are willingly ignoring what they saw with their own eyes in the ending... It's not like they tried to make it cryptic, I thought it was pretty obvious what was going on. The mountains of evidence are pretty hard to ignore -- if anything, it's much harder to believe that Bioware ACTUALLY would have made that the straight-forward ending. There are way too many inconsistencies, and we all know Bioware has never let blatant inconsistencies slide like that, meaning they were deliberate. The magical pistol with unlimited ammo that you suddenly have possession of, where the only other place that occurred was in the virtual Geth reality? The codex entry on Indoctrination? And notice what happens to Shep's eyes in the "Control" ending, and everyone else's eyes in the "Synthesis" ending. Take a look at the art book for a nice little spoiler. All these among a hundred other details that gave it away, not to mention Shepard waking up in London? Come on now, people.

I'll recommend a couple links, in case anyone would like to recap what they saw, or things they missed.
http://social.biowar...5/index/9764576
http://social.biowar...5/index/9727423 
 

Modifié par Meatus, 14 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[magicalpoop]

There is no definitive answer, they left the ending intentionally open to interpretation on some levels

Straight from the game director

I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact.

SOURCE: MSNBC http://www.ingame.ms...s-ending-442217

[Rawgrim]

Trobon18 wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Dark Wyn wrote...

The other thing to look at is this.
Indoctrination IS the Reaper's greatest weapon. They use it so much throughout the series. What is more hope crushing than being able to simple manipulate others and turn them on their comrades?
It makes sense they would go all out and try to do this to the galaxy's greatest hope.

Exactly. and why would that weapon never be used against Shepard, throughout the entire series? Its their biggest weapon, and he is their biggest enemy.

For all we know it HAS been happening throughout the series.  Remember all the crap Shepard sees when he/she touches the first beacon on Eden Prime?  In the TIM origin comic a beacon just like that indoctrinated tons of Turian's and I believe is what first began TIM's indoctrination.  I KNOW that's how he gets his "implant eyes".  This could've been building all the way from day ONE.

Then why didn't the prothean VI detect any signs of it? You can't just throw away things that don't fit or your logic is no more sound than Bioware's.

Because Shep isn`t indoctrinated yet at that point. The VI can detect "someone who is brainwashed". Brainwashing takes time, and Shep isn`t "brainwashed" untill the very end of the game. But Shep is showing growing symptoms of it throughout ME3.

[lynch108]

-Draikin- wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
As far as the inconsistencies in the ending scenes, those could also be explained as a product of rushed work, a lack of backtracking, and assigning different people to work on different things under heavy pressure from a last minute leak.

And this is also the most logical explanation. I never realized the indoctrination theory would be so popoular though, it goes to show how badly people want the current endings to be fake. I wonder what the reaction will be if Bioware actually confirms the endings are the real deal.

I'm actually more curious to see the reaction of the people who loved the ending if it actually isn't the ending... Will they just not download it?

[ShaneP]

Am I the only one that *doesn't* want the Indoctrination theory to be true?

The endings suck. Yep, we get that. But seriously, to me Shepard is a symbol for everything humanity embodies.. Our never say die attitude, overwhelming will to succeed, fighting against seemingly impossible odds to do something no organic has ever done before, namely to save organic life from complete destruction. A symbol of courage, tenacity, self reliance and determination

To have Shepard become indoctrinated stands against the very ideal of Shepard that Bioware present in the first 2 games, and 99% of the third.

Sure, the endings are bad, but I believe the best answer would be for Bioware to come up with something new because, lets face it, the main reason most of my fellow fans are hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true is to try and make sense of, or explain away what were simply bad endings in my opinion. Fans are so desperate for Shepard's end not to suck that they are being drawn into wanting an equally sucky (in my opinion) idea to be true, just to fill plot holes.

If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

[lynch108]

Actually, the only thing that gives me pause is, what about the disc only players (no internet availability)? How would they get the ending if this is indeed what happens? A small group to be sure but can't leave them out.

Modifié par lynch108, 14 mars 2012 - 11:37 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Kylamero wrote...

If it's true then it's a masterstroke by Bioware.

The biggest advantage of not releasing the "real" ending until later is to keep people's choices honest. If people don't know that there's more to the game they can't spill the beans to others that picking any choice but destroy is indoctrination.

I picked destroy but if i picked control i would have had no idea it was an indoctrination attempt, i think they will have caught a lot of people by suprise, hence how indoctrination works!

Also i wonder, once you complete the game it takes you back to before the assault on Cerberus HQ. I know the reason they gave was for war assets but i wonder if it's also to help people that chose the indoctrinated options and died to contiue without having to start right at the beginning. Food for thought maybe.

I'm not sure.  That leak on 4chan, it could be fake but could be fake while accidently still being partially true, you know?  In that leak they say you can continue playing regardless of your choice, the choice mearly somehow effects what then happens.  Maybe your fight is harder because the reapers have gained some control over you?  Somethign similar to the third boss fight in Deus Ex HR where you can get tricked into making the fight more difficult you know?  Just an idea off the top of my head.  Probably a good one. 

I don't think the "boss fight" aspect of the whole scene is supposed to be that literal though.  I don't think the choice we make is the real point, I mean its part of the point a way to get a direct input of ouyr psyche, but the real "fight" its how we react.  These emotions we feel durring this inbetween period before we wake up, THAT is the real fight.  One that takes place in the heart.

The implications... they are beautiful. 

[lynch108]

ShaneP wrote...

Am I the only one that *doesn't* want the Indoctrination theory to be true?

The endings suck. Yep, we get that. But seriously, to me Shepard is a symbol for everything humanity embodies.. Our never say die attitude, overwhelming will to succeed, fighting against seemingly impossible odds to do something no organic has ever done before, namely to save organic life from complete destruction. A symbol of courage, tenacity, self reliance and determination

To have Shepard become indoctrinated stands against the very ideal of Shepard that Bioware present in the first 2 games, and 99% of the third.

Sure, the endings are bad, but I believe the best answer would be for Bioware to come up with something new because, lets face it, the main reason most of my fellow fans are hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true is to try and make sense of, or explain away what were simply bad endings in my opinion. Fans are so desperate for Shepard's end not to suck that they are being drawn into wanting an equally sucky (in my opinion) idea to be true, just to fill plot holes.

If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

If you chose red, he wasn't indoctrinated, that's why he woke up.

[Trobon18]

lynch108 wrote...

ShaneP wrote...

Am I the only one that *doesn't* want the Indoctrination theory to be true?

The endings suck. Yep, we get that. But seriously, to me Shepard is a symbol for everything humanity embodies.. Our never say die attitude, overwhelming will to succeed, fighting against seemingly impossible odds to do something no organic has ever done before, namely to save organic life from complete destruction. A symbol of courage, tenacity, self reliance and determination

To have Shepard become indoctrinated stands against the very ideal of Shepard that Bioware present in the first 2 games, and 99% of the third.

Sure, the endings are bad, but I believe the best answer would be for Bioware to come up with something new because, lets face it, the main reason most of my fellow fans are hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true is to try and make sense of, or explain away what were simply bad endings in my opinion. Fans are so desperate for Shepard's end not to suck that they are being drawn into wanting an equally sucky (in my opinion) idea to be true, just to fill plot holes.

If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

If you chose red, he wasn't indoctrinated, that's why he woke up.

So the end boils down to if you chose 2 out of 3 options you lose and that wouldn't bother a single person? Only those who chose the 3rd one AND got high enough EMS can go onto the "real" ending no matter what.

[Jessihatt]

ShaneP wrote...


If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

If the Indoctrination Theory is true, then they've had it planned for a while.
If the end DLC/expansion they keep hinting at is coming that is.

If something is coming, and it's well done, whatever their explanation is I will be happy.
Hopefully 

[the red boon]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

the red boon wrote...

The more likely explanation was the ending was rushed through QA to get the game out on time.

Sure, but then why place such a massive plot hole in it.  Why program the game to show the scene as it is and not in a way that would make more sense and not completely blow away all logic? 

No, the scene must play as intended.  Even if it was rushed, they would of had no problem at all designing it so that character who died with you in the final push wouldn't show up in that last little scene.  That takes no effort at all to accomplish on the programming end.

Look, I don't have solid evidense, the evidense I present is that you only need a tiny sliver of faith that Bioware arent the most incompetent develoepr in the world to **** up that badly and that it must of been done intentionally.  Because thats what it comes down to, It leaves ONLY two possible conclusionss.  Either its intentional and thus it must be a dream or something similar or it was an accident and bioware are the most imcompetent develoeprs ever for letting it through, not only just letting it through but doign multiple thingst hat all compound togetehr into one huge hole (bodies dissappearing when you wake up, and THEN appearing on normandy both of these thigns we're programed in they don;t just happen by pure chance. 

Intention, or worst **** up ever, two chocies. 

Do you really think the latter is possible after how perfect the entirety of the game beforet hat point was?  I mean think about that for a minute, think of how perfect the game was up to that point, how well everything fit how polished the story was.  It ONLY derps at that one final moment.  I don't see how you could honestly believe it. 

That would be like staring at a piece of blank paper for 50 hours, then closing your eyes for five minutes and not being sure if the paper your holding is still blank.  Come on, your your brain for one second and you'll know the answer. 

Alright, lets look at why my statement is much more rational then this theory you so desparatley believe in. The game had the same cutscene/s for all the endings with different colors. That indicates they didn't put much effort into the ending and it was rushed. Also explain how synthetics killing organics saves organics from being killed by synthetics and the god child for that matter. You can't because you are simply stating that it was part of his mind when this isn't indicated at all by bioware who would be in their best interest to stop the negativity felt towards their game since it is hurting their sales and possilby future DLCs. If you can clamp your nose and eat the **** they gave us and claim it was a cake good job for you.

[THALE]

Small thing I did notice.

In Mass Effect 1, you fought Saren, killed him (twice) there ya go, boss battle.

Mass Effect 2, the giant human reaper. Again, a boss battle.

Mass Effect 3, a choice. Thats the ending? Eh, just dosnt seem like it works out.

With the other stories, it worked. Issue to issue solved. Saren to dead Saren, collecters to dead collecters.
If this game was supposed to end the trilogy, then there must be more, and if you dont see that bioware will end it, then your mistaken.

Though i was in a massive uproar after the "ending"

[Sky Shadowing]

People don't think BioWare has the level of writing to pull of such an epic twist. But this isn't exactly a theme they haven't explored before. To quote:

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?"

[Doctoglethorpe]

ShaneP wrote...

Am I the only one that *doesn't* want the Indoctrination theory to be true?

The endings suck. Yep, we get that. But seriously, to me Shepard is a symbol for everything humanity embodies.. Our never say die attitude, overwhelming will to succeed, fighting against seemingly impossible odds to do something no organic has ever done before, namely to save organic life from complete destruction. A symbol of courage, tenacity, self reliance and determination

To have Shepard become indoctrinated stands against the very ideal of Shepard that Bioware present in the first 2 games, and 99% of the third.

Sure, the endings are bad, but I believe the best answer would be for Bioware to come up with something new because, lets face it, the main reason most of my fellow fans are hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true is to try and make sense of, or explain away what were simply bad endings in my opinion. Fans are so desperate for Shepard's end not to suck that they are being drawn into wanting an equally sucky (in my opinion) idea to be true, just to fill plot holes.

If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

Well, Shepard battling indoc would not be impossible, in fact it would be the most significant fight he ever faced.  I don't see how the character they present couldn't be effected by it.  In fact think of if its true, that fighting the indoctrinations is put into peoples own hands in real time.  That would be far deeper more personal customization of the character then any convo wheel choice we ever made.  A direct extention of our own mind, of our own uncontrollable emotions, rather then just us imputting what we want with no real resemblance of what we would actually do irl.  ULTIMATE ROLE PLAYING.   

Plus, I have to disagree with you that I'd rather this just be a **** up and they repair it.  Thats a far worse implication, which is my original point of this thread.  Because a simple repair job means they did in fact **** up.  If thast the case repairing it will only patch the wound.  But if this was all intended, then theres no wound to begin with!  It was all an emotional rollercoaster they wanted us to feel.  Good or bad.  (Both in my case, which is the best way to do it baby)




God I hope I don't look back at this in a month and think what a fool I was.  See, even with all this new found faith theres still a bit of doubt.  Thats only natural.  Faith has significantly overcome my sorrow now though.  Thats whats important. 

[Catroi]

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Theories such as this appear with a lot of popular games with a fanbase who don't want to believe the writers let them down.

They exist to explain away plotholes, regardless of the game writer's intentions. They didn't plan this. You can "read" the plot of the game like Shepard is indoctrinated, just like you can believe that Squall died in FF8 at the end of disc 1. But if you think Bioware actually planned that, maybe they've indoctrinated you.

If it was a typical plot hole, I would agree.

But this is a plot hole the size of a galaxy.  I just do not believe Bioware would let it pass.  Not after the first 99.9% of the game. 

I guess that's just a way we differ in our response to the plot holes. I would love to think bioware had something up their sleeve, but then I'd be pissed it wasn't in the game to begin with. Plus, I can't shake the knowledge that it's from the people who brought us DA2. If they couldn't see the flaws with that game prior to release...

Do not forget that this was not the same Bioware AT ALL
Since they were bought by EA they have been renaming nearly all their studios with the Bioware name, so they are definitly not the people who brought us DA2

[ajaxbr]

Customers want a better ending and Bioware is gambling that customers will pay for it. Consider this how EPIC would this be if the DLC answered your questions and opened the door to a new trilogy. Would you pay for it?

[Dark Wyn]

ajaxbr wrote...

Customers want a better ending and Bioware is gambling that customers will pay for it. Consider this how EPIC would this be if the DLC answered your questions and opened the door to a new trilogy. Would you pay for it?

I've never stopped supporting Bioware.  I may not like what we have atm, but if they delivered, why wouldn't I?

[Warhawk7137]

ajaxbr wrote...

Customers want a better ending and Bioware is gambling that customers will pay for it. Consider this how EPIC would this be if the DLC answered your questions and opened the door to a new trilogy. Would you pay for it?

Yeah, sure.  Why not?  If it's a product I want and worth the cost, I'll buy it.

I mean, I would have handled things differently, but I don't think that factors into my purchasing decisions that much.

[Mcfly616]

Imo(and this one is a theory) Shepard wakes up in all 3 endings. They only show it to you in the Destroy ending however as an easteregg for making the choice you always set out to do since the beginning. An example that comes to mind would be the last scene of Halo 3 if you beat it on the Legendary difficulty....the scene really happens in the story(it leads right into the upcoming Halo 4). It's a scene that happens by fulfilling a stipulation(difficulty setting) the same way you have to stick to your guns and pick the option to destroy the Reapers. That's the stipulation to seeing the extra seen. By definition, yes they are Easter eggs. But that doesn't mean it isn't what really happens. Master Chief didn't die and is floating off in space to a mysterious planetary object, and Shep regains consciousness....sorry if the analogy is confusing

[Phaedra Sanguine]

Someone from BW is going to have to come straight out and say that this is not the end of the game, because, obviously, even with a billion hints, most of the people here will not see them.

[garf]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Doctor Moustache, that is but one sign of proof....the scene at the end of the credits when he wakes up in the exact spot he was blasted, is the only proof you need. Nay-sayers dodge it, avoid it, won't even speak of it....this fact they cannot get around....they say we reach for straws and are stretching things to fit our theories, and all the while that's exactly what they're doing and we're just stating the facts....it is a fact that everything after Harbingers beam is not real. It's not a theory. It's a fact. Shep regains consciousness....no other proof needed.

That's a little much. I'm willing to hope but you're taking faith over to full blown creationism.

It's game. Either they do have free content down the pipe that provides what they actually promised

Or they messed up huge.

If the latter. they either fix or they fail.

It won't be proven to me until I clicking on new content in my game. Fingers crossed. because I want to believe.

[Doctoglethorpe]

the red boon wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

the red boon wrote...

The more likely explanation was the ending was rushed through QA to get the game out on time.

Sure, but then why place such a massive plot hole in it.  Why program the game to show the scene as it is and not in a way that would make more sense and not completely blow away all logic? 

No, the scene must play as intended.  Even if it was rushed, they would of had no problem at all designing it so that character who died with you in the final push wouldn't show up in that last little scene.  That takes no effort at all to accomplish on the programming end.

Look, I don't have solid evidense, the evidense I present is that you only need a tiny sliver of faith that Bioware arent the most incompetent develoepr in the world to **** up that badly and that it must of been done intentionally.  Because thats what it comes down to, It leaves ONLY two possible conclusionss.  Either its intentional and thus it must be a dream or something similar or it was an accident and bioware are the most imcompetent develoeprs ever for letting it through, not only just letting it through but doign multiple thingst hat all compound togetehr into one huge hole (bodies dissappearing when you wake up, and THEN appearing on normandy both of these thigns we're programed in they don;t just happen by pure chance. 

Intention, or worst **** up ever, two chocies. 

Do you really think the latter is possible after how perfect the entirety of the game beforet hat point was?  I mean think about that for a minute, think of how perfect the game was up to that point, how well everything fit how polished the story was.  It ONLY derps at that one final moment.  I don't see how you could honestly believe it. 

That would be like staring at a piece of blank paper for 50 hours, then closing your eyes for five minutes and not being sure if the paper your holding is still blank.  Come on, your your brain for one second and you'll know the answer. 

Alright, lets look at why my statement is much more rational then this theory you so desparatley believe in. The game had the same cutscene/s for all the endings with different colors. That indicates they didn't put much effort into the ending and it was rushed. Also explain how synthetics killing organics saves organics from being killed by synthetics and the god child for that matter. You can't because you are simply stating that it was part of his mind when this isn't indicated at all by bioware who would be in their best interest to stop the negativity felt towards their game since it is hurting their sales and possilby future DLCs. If you can clamp your nose and eat the **** they gave us and claim it was a cake good job for you.

The utter sameyness of the three endings actually supports the theory, you just have to think about it from a different perspective.  If the ending is always indoc, then there would be no point for the vision to be altered more then only minimally for you to believe the picture.  The lack of variety only makes it more dream like, not a normal dream but a dream that was constructed intentionally.  By a arcitect (oh boy we're getting into inception terriroty now)

I think both sides are understandable and neither have solid evidense, thus this point doesn't tip the balance towards either of the two possibilities. 


I didn't really understand the other point you we're trying to make, could you restate it differently? 

[Trobon18]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Imo(and this one is a theory) Shepard wakes up in all 3 endings. They only show it to you in the Destroy ending however as an easteregg for making the choice you always set out to do since the beginning. An example that comes to mind would be the last scene of Halo 3 if you beat it on the Legendary difficulty....the scene really happens in the story(it leads right into the upcoming Halo 4). It's a scene that happens by fulfilling a stipulation(difficulty setting) the same way you have to stick to your guns and pick the option to destroy the Reapers. That's the stipulation to seeing the extra seen. By definition, yes they are Easter eggs. But that doesn't mean it isn't what really happens. Master Chief didn't die and is floating off in space to a mysterious planetary object, and Shep regains consciousness....sorry if the analogy is confusing

That would invalidate the whole indoctrination theory as a whole. The point (albeit misguided in my mind) of the theory is that only the destroy ending has Shepard breaking the hold of the Reapers.

[lynch108]

Trobon18 wrote...

lynch108 wrote...

ShaneP wrote...

Am I the only one that *doesn't* want the Indoctrination theory to be true?

The endings suck. Yep, we get that. But seriously, to me Shepard is a symbol for everything humanity embodies.. Our never say die attitude, overwhelming will to succeed, fighting against seemingly impossible odds to do something no organic has ever done before, namely to save organic life from complete destruction. A symbol of courage, tenacity, self reliance and determination

To have Shepard become indoctrinated stands against the very ideal of Shepard that Bioware present in the first 2 games, and 99% of the third.

Sure, the endings are bad, but I believe the best answer would be for Bioware to come up with something new because, lets face it, the main reason most of my fellow fans are hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true is to try and make sense of, or explain away what were simply bad endings in my opinion. Fans are so desperate for Shepard's end not to suck that they are being drawn into wanting an equally sucky (in my opinion) idea to be true, just to fill plot holes.

If Bioware re-craft something that makes sense they'll re-earn my respect. If they pursue the indoctrination theory simply to shut everyone up, I'm not sure that I'll bother re-playing ME3.

The eyes of the world are on Bioware at the moment. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

If you chose red, he wasn't indoctrinated, that's why he woke up.

So the end boils down to if you chose 2 out of 3 options you lose and that wouldn't bother a single person? Only those who chose the 3rd one AND got high enough EMS can go onto the "real" ending no matter what.

No clue, honestly.  Possibly something else happens if you're indoctrinated, maybe you have to use the save and pick red to move on, not sure.  With the in-game evidence and the tweets, it seems the most likely scenario, tho.