254 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctoglethorpe]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Imo(and this one is a theory) Shepard wakes up in all 3 endings. They only show it to you in the Destroy ending however as an easteregg for making the choice you always set out to do since the beginning. An example that comes to mind would be the last scene of Halo 3 if you beat it on the Legendary difficulty....the scene really happens in the story(it leads right into the upcoming Halo 4). It's a scene that happens by fulfilling a stipulation(difficulty setting) the same way you have to stick to your guns and pick the option to destroy the Reapers. That's the stipulation to seeing the extra seen. By definition, yes they are Easter eggs. But that doesn't mean it isn't what really happens. Master Chief didn't die and is floating off in space to a mysterious planetary object, and Shep regains consciousness....sorry if the analogy is confusing

Agreed.

[Kylamero]

The very fact that we are all arguing over whether or not it is indoctrination shows how subtle it all is, how the clues/hints for it are miniscule against the standard conventions of what we believe a game provides us (i.e an absolute ending) and how so many refuse to believe it (and rightly so).

Are there parallels to be drawn here? Is it just like indoctrination in itself? Or are we adding 2 and 2 and making 5?

[Trobon18]

Paxcorpus wrote...

Someone from BW is going to have to come straight out and say that this is not the end of the game, because, obviously, even with a billion hints, most of the people here will not see them.

There is a difference between seeing the evidence and saying it doesn't stack up against not being able to see the evidence. That is something a lot of the pro-indoc people keep saying and its really annoying. I understand your theory and the "proof" but I'm saying it only fits together because it was designed to. And even then it only fits together by ignoring lore on how indoctrination works and the prothean beacon not sensing indoctrination in you.

It's like the moon landing hoax theory. They have plenty of "proof" but its only proof because they design the theory to make it work.

[jameshawking]

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Theories such as this appear with a lot of popular games with a fanbase who don't want to believe the writers let them down.

They exist to explain away plotholes, regardless of the game writer's intentions. They didn't plan this. You can "read" the plot of the game like Shepard is indoctrinated, just like you can believe that Squall died in FF8 at the end of disc 1. But if you think Bioware actually planned that, maybe they've indoctrinated you.

I wanted to give you props because, from the first sentence, the FF8 thing popped immediately into my head before you said it.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Trobon18 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Imo(and this one is a theory) Shepard wakes up in all 3 endings. They only show it to you in the Destroy ending however as an easteregg for making the choice you always set out to do since the beginning. An example that comes to mind would be the last scene of Halo 3 if you beat it on the Legendary difficulty....the scene really happens in the story(it leads right into the upcoming Halo 4). It's a scene that happens by fulfilling a stipulation(difficulty setting) the same way you have to stick to your guns and pick the option to destroy the Reapers. That's the stipulation to seeing the extra seen. By definition, yes they are Easter eggs. But that doesn't mean it isn't what really happens. Master Chief didn't die and is floating off in space to a mysterious planetary object, and Shep regains consciousness....sorry if the analogy is confusing

That would invalidate the whole indoctrination theory as a whole. The point (albeit misguided in my mind) of the theory is that only the destroy ending has Shepard breaking the hold of the Reapers.

But again, I think that pictures this whole situation too small.  I think that whole choose a door ending was merely a catalyst (excuse the pun) for creating the real intended effect, which was to give yourself an emotional battle.  A battle fighting angery or sadness or whatever crazy **** your feeling over this as we're all a little different.  The chocie itself is merely a form of phyche profiling, yes the reapers literally just played psychiatrist with your mind, and based on that choice they may approach the final confrontation differently, try to appeal to you and trick you in different ways based on the choice you made.  Or maybe as I said earlier the choice does literally matter but merely gives them some extent of control over you but you will wake up regardless and have the chance to fight it just ends up beign harder depending on the choice.  Like for example perhaps your controls get screwed up and your aiming occasionally points the wrong direction and powers don't fire accurately.  Its a mechanic that has been used before, wouldn't be suprising.  Its not very new, but I wouldn't mind it.  Again I think the real point of all this was this emotional battle we're fighting in the in-between time.  Even if your feeling very angry over this, you gotta admit if Bioware we're doing it on purpose and got you to feel that anger, and regardless of if you forgave them for it, its a pretty powerful statement right there that they made you feel it at all.

Or maybe I'm wrong.  But I prefer my new faith to the wallowing hopelessness I felt the past few days, thanks.   

[Sc2mashimaro]

I will say this in support of indoctrination theory, dream sequences and illusion have been a recurring theme in previous Bioware titles. Also, I really, really want them to be right. Blargh...damn you space magic!

[Kylamero]

The biggest twist i ever had in a game was finding out i was Revan in KOTOR, after i found out all the little dialogue hints became clear to me.

If anyone can pull off a twist like this it's Bioware.

[novaseeker]

Kylamero wrote...

Also i wonder, once you complete the game it takes you back to before the assault on Cerberus HQ. I know the reason they gave was for war assets but i wonder if it's also to help people that chose the indoctrinated options and died to contiue without having to start right at the beginning. Food for thought maybe.

My thought as well ... sets you up to get the assets/readiness combo you need to go over 5k and get Shep to survive.  But that's speculative, really.

[Icarus86]

I think the difficulty is that when you go down the rabbit hole you don't know when to stop! I never trusted Kaiden after appearing after the battle on Horizon in ME2. Or that the reapers travelled all the way to Earth. Or that in the reckoning you are knocked unconscious and kept alive for whatever reason, near a fricking reaper artefact And then there's the kid - definitely a figment of Shepperds imagination at some point (end or beginning of ME3..You choose!). The weirdest thing was definitely the transition between the final sprint in London and then appearing on the citadel. It was ludicrously dream like.

[sfam]

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

[ShaneP]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Well, Shepard battling indoc would not be impossible, in fact it would be the most significant fight he ever faced.  I don't see how the character they present couldn't be effected by it.  In fact think of if its true, that fighting the indoctrinations is put into peoples own hands in real time.  That would be far deeper more personal customization of the character then any convo wheel choice we ever made.  A direct extention of our own mind, of our own uncontrollable emotions, rather then just us imputting what we want with no real resemblance of what we would actually do irl.  ULTIMATE ROLE PLAYING.

Never tried to imply that it would be impossible, simply that it wouldn't fit in with Shepard's character and the image of him Bioware spent 2 games and 99% of the third portraying. That's the whole point of Reaper control, most of the time subjects simply don't know it's happening to them, they just subtly start to sympathise with the cause of the reapers.

And besides, Shepard has survived things including the Prothean becons and cipher that, in Liara's words would have "destroyed a lesser mind".

I know it's possible, I'm just saying that it wouldn't fit and I don't think it would be satisfactory. 

Plus, I have to disagree with you that I'd rather this just be a **** up and they repair it.  Thats a far worse implication, which is my original point of this thread.  Because a simple repair job means they did in fact **** up.  If thast the case repairing it will only patch the wound.  But if this was all intended, then theres no wound to begin with!  It was all an emotional rollercoaster they wanted us to feel.  Good or bad.  (Both in my case, which is the best way to do it baby)

So you prefer the implication that a gaming company deliberately released a questionable ending full of plot holes, that they most likely realised most players would either hate, or be left with a lot of questions about to the implication that they simply tried to be original and got it a bit wrong? I mean the point is, not all players intend to pay for DLC, and unless Bioware do make the DLC that may or may not better explain / change the ending free, it would leave gamers that chose not to buy the DLC with unanswered questions. Do you REALLY consider that to be a logical step for any game manufacturer?

God I hope I don't look back at this in a month and think what a fool I was.  See, even with all this new found faith theres still a bit of doubt.  Thats only natural.  Faith has significantly overcome my sorrow now though.  Thats whats important. 

For what it's worth I believe Bioware deserve a lot of commendation for the vast majority of the things they got right with the ME series. Up to the ending I loved all 3 games.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Trobon18 wrote...

Paxcorpus wrote...

Someone from BW is going to have to come straight out and say that this is not the end of the game, because, obviously, even with a billion hints, most of the people here will not see them.

There is a difference between seeing the evidence and saying it doesn't stack up against not being able to see the evidence. That is something a lot of the pro-indoc people keep saying and its really annoying. I understand your theory and the "proof" but I'm saying it only fits together because it was designed to. And even then it only fits together by ignoring lore on how indoctrination works and the prothean beacon not sensing indoctrination in you.

It's like the moon landing hoax theory. They have plenty of "proof" but its only proof because they design the theory to make it work.

Okay, I'll lay it out plain and simple.  Lets see if this works...


If your given two answers to one problem and only know that one of
them is true, and after careful examination one looks far more likely
then the other but there is no deffenitive proof either way, its only
good judgement to pick the more likely solution.  Is it deffenitly
correct?  No.  But is it probably correct?  Yes.  Which one do you pick if you have to chose?

That is it. 

Apply to this situation. 

Confirm or deny:  The only two possibilities are that A) Indoc or similar theory is true, ending is not true ending.  or After the near flawless first 99% of the game Bioware intentionally ended with the biggest most obvious and unmissable plot hole in a game ever. 

If confirm, tell me then, what is really the lesser likely to be true?  Really think about that. 

This is the evidense I put forth, this and this alone.  I believe with this single question you can find the answer.  It is not solid proof, its a judgement call.  But its a heavy enough of one that I consider it enough to believe. 

[Trobon18]

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

[Doctoglethorpe]

ShaneP wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Well, Shepard battling indoc would not be impossible, in fact it would be the most significant fight he ever faced.  I don't see how the character they present couldn't be effected by it.  In fact think of if its true, that fighting the indoctrinations is put into peoples own hands in real time.  That would be far deeper more personal customization of the character then any convo wheel choice we ever made.  A direct extention of our own mind, of our own uncontrollable emotions, rather then just us imputting what we want with no real resemblance of what we would actually do irl.  ULTIMATE ROLE PLAYING.

Never tried to imply that it would be impossible, simply that it wouldn't fit in with Shepard's character and the image of him Bioware spent 2 games and 99% of the third portraying. That's the whole point of Reaper control, most of the time subjects simply don't know it's happening to them, they just subtly start to sympathise with the cause of the reapers.

And besides, Shepard has survived things including the Prothean becons and cipher that, in Liara's words would have "destroyed a lesser mind".

I know it's possible, I'm just saying that it wouldn't fit and I don't think it would be satisfactory. 

Plus, I have to disagree with you that I'd rather this just be a **** up and they repair it.  Thats a far worse implication, which is my original point of this thread.  Because a simple repair job means they did in fact **** up.  If thast the case repairing it will only patch the wound.  But if this was all intended, then theres no wound to begin with!  It was all an emotional rollercoaster they wanted us to feel.  Good or bad.  (Both in my case, which is the best way to do it baby)

So you prefer the implication that a gaming company deliberately released a questionable ending full of plot holes, that they most likely realised most players would either hate, or be left with a lot of questions about to the implication that they simply tried to be original and got it a bit wrong? I mean the point is, not all players intend to pay for DLC, and unless Bioware do make the DLC that may or may not better explain / change the ending free, it would leave gamers that chose not to buy the DLC with unanswered questions. Do you REALLY consider that to be a logical step for any game manufacturer?

God I hope I don't look back at this in a month and think what a fool I was.  See, even with all this new found faith theres still a bit of doubt.  Thats only natural.  Faith has significantly overcome my sorrow now though.  Thats whats important. 

For what it's worth I believe Bioware deserve a lot of commendation for the vast majority of the things they got right with the ME series. Up to the ending I loved all 3 games.

Part 1) And you don't think this would be a subtle way of doing it?  You yourself are in disbelief.  Think about it. 

Part 2) I wholly believe it will be free.  Thats kind of the point.  Its not to make more money, its the ending thats already there, its just seperated to give us time to boil over it, to let these emotion stew. 

Part 3) Me too.  And Up until a few hours ago I also thought up until the end.  Now I think the end is amazing... because its not the end.  The end is coming, and its going to be glorious. 

[ShaneP]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Okay, I'll lay it out plain and simple.  Lets see if this works...


If your given two answers to one problem and only know that one of
them is true, and after careful examination one looks far more likely
then the other but there is no deffenitive proof either way, its only
good judgement to pick the more likely solution.  Is it deffenitly
correct?  No.  But is it probably correct?  Yes.  Which one do you pick if you have to chose?

That is it. 

Apply to this situation. 

Confirm or deny:  The only two possibilities are that A) Indoc or similar theory is true, ending is not true ending.  or After the near flawless first 99% of the game Bioware intentionally ended with the biggest most obvious and unmissable plot hole in a game ever. 

If confirm, tell me then, what is really the lesser likely to be true?  Really think about that. 

This is the evidense I put forth, this and this alone.  I believe with this single question you can find the answer.  It is not solid proof, its a judgement call.  But its a heavy enough of one that I consider it enough to believe. 

To sum this up in a single phrase: Dragon Age 2

It's not unprecedented for Bioware to make good games with crap endings

[Cirrusstrafe]

ShaneP wrote...

So you prefer the implication that a gaming company deliberately released a questionable ending full of plot holes, that they most likely realised most players would either hate, or be left with a lot of questions about to the implication that they simply tried to be original and got it a bit wrong? I mean the point is, not all players intend to pay for DLC, and unless Bioware do make the DLC that may or may not better explain / change the ending free, it would leave gamers that chose not to buy the DLC with unanswered questions. Do you REALLY consider that to be a logical step for any game manufacturer?

Assuming player-indoctrination ending DLC clarity:

Logical?  No.

Insane?  Yes.

Kind to us in the short run?  No.

If pulled off, would I consider it the most creative, artistic, and incredible risk ever taken by a game company; one that may pave the way for innovative and inventive storytelling via the gaming medium from this point forward?  F*** yes.

I say do it.  My body and wallet are ready.

Modifié par Cirrusstrafe, 15 mars 2012 - 12:15 .

[Kylamero]

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I would not feel 'screwed over' if Bioware released the "real" ending as free DLC in 3 or 4 months time and stated that it was to keep peoples descisions at the end honest and make people feel about the choices they made, i.e you were indoctrinated.

This way nobody knows, nobody can spill the beans and forge the best ending, everybody is fallable. MASTERSTROKE

[Trobon18]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Trobon18 wrote...

Paxcorpus wrote...

Someone from BW is going to have to come straight out and say that this is not the end of the game, because, obviously, even with a billion hints, most of the people here will not see them.

There is a difference between seeing the evidence and saying it doesn't stack up against not being able to see the evidence. That is something a lot of the pro-indoc people keep saying and its really annoying. I understand your theory and the "proof" but I'm saying it only fits together because it was designed to. And even then it only fits together by ignoring lore on how indoctrination works and the prothean beacon not sensing indoctrination in you.

It's like the moon landing hoax theory. They have plenty of "proof" but its only proof because they design the theory to make it work.

Okay, I'll lay it out plain and simple.  Lets see if this works...


If your given two answers to one problem and only know that one of
them is true, and after careful examination one looks far more likely
then the other but there is no deffenitive proof either way, its only
good judgement to pick the more likely solution.  Is it deffenitly
correct?  No.  But is it probably correct?  Yes.  Which one do you pick if you have to chose?

That is it. 

Apply to this situation. 

Confirm or deny:  The only two possibilities are that A) Indoc or similar theory is true, ending is not true ending.  or After the near flawless first 99% of the game Bioware intentionally ended with the biggest most obvious and unmissable plot hole in a game ever. 

If confirm, tell me then, what is really the lesser likely to be true?  Really think about that. 

This is the evidense I put forth, this and this alone.  I believe with this single question you can find the answer.  It is not solid proof, its a judgement call.  But its a heavy enough of one that I consider it enough to believe. 

Tell me which is more likely:

A) A company risks financial loss via sales and stocks in order to trick their fans in believing there was one ending when in reality there was another

or

 Someone at Bioware made a Deus Ex Machina ending they thought was good, but the majority of fans disliked.

There are even some fans who like this ending. So it is more than possible the writers were among those people and just wrote what you and I find to be a poor ending.

[Warhawk7137]

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

It'd be a bit of a stretch to assume the latter as well. 

Either way you look at it there's problems with the ending.  I just think it's more likely that they would release a logically coherent unfinished ending with a twist than a completely incoherent finished ending with a couple of plot holes you could pilot a dreadnaught through.

Ultimately, based on the actual things we see in the game, the indoctrination theory makes the most sense to me.  There's a lot of evidence supporting it, even if there's no smoking gun.

[Trobon18]

Kylamero wrote...

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I would not feel 'screwed over' if Bioware released the "real" ending as free DLC in 3 or 4 months time and stated that it was to keep peoples descisions at the end honest and make people feel about the choices they made, i.e you were indoctrinated.

This way nobody knows, nobody can spill the beans and forge the best ending, everybody is fallable. MASTERSTROKE

No matter how they put it, releasing a game without an ending and charging for that ending later is screwing over your fans.

[ShaneP]

Doctor Moustache wrote...
Part 1) And you don't think this would be a subtle way of doing it?  You yourself are in disbelief.  Think about it. 

Part 2) I wholly believe it will be free.  Thats kind of the point.  Its not to make more money, its the ending thats already there, its just seperated to give us time to boil over it, to let these emotion stew. 

Part 3) Me too.  And Up until a few hours ago I also thought up until the end.  Now I think the end is amazing... because its not the end.  The end is coming, and its going to be glorious. 

Shepard getting within a couple hundred yards of the finishing line and then suddenly being indoctrinated? yeah, that's real subtle! I'm not in disbelief, I appreciate that this theory *could* explain the endings, I simply don't completely buy into it because it just doesn't make sense to me.

Part 2) I wholly believe it will be free.  Thats kind of the point.  Its not to make more money, its the ending thats already there, its just seperated to give us time to boil over it, to let these emotion stew.   

Seriously... What possible reason could Bioware have for shipping an ending with the game that wasn't actually the ending apart from time constraints? It just doesn't add up.

[meisjoe]

 All of this speculation is pointless if BioWare just doesn't care about the craptacular ending.  It's very possilbe that they might not...   choosing instead to just say "meh" and paste on an ending, rather than put anymore effort into it. <_<

[Trobon18]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

It'd be a bit of a stretch to assume the latter as well. 

Either way you look at it there's problems with the ending.  I just think it's more likely that they would release a logically coherent unfinished ending with a twist than a completely incoherent finished ending with a couple of plot holes you could pilot a dreadnaught through.

Ultimately, based on the actual things we see in the game, the indoctrination theory makes the most sense to me.  There's a lot of evidence supporting it, even if there's no smoking gun.

Again though, there's lots of "evidence" supporting that the moon landing was a hoax or that 9-11 was an inside job. That's because the way theories like that work is they take the things they see and make a theory to fit it.

[sfam]

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I actually think this is more believable - we all know the pressure about release dates and corporate buyouts can do.  We also know of MANY movies where the final product released was a train wreck due to behind the scenes absurdities.  If the ending they wanted couldn't be done in the time REQUIRED to release the game, one could possibly imagine a bizarre corporate rationale which says the reviewers will rate it highly because the rating will come prior to finishing the game, and that tons of people will buy it before they're duped.  This seems to be what's happened.

Then again, one look at the tanking ratings on Amazon is all you need to see to realize the financial impact their ending is already having on sales.

[Kylamero]

Trobon18 wrote...

Kylamero wrote...

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I would not feel 'screwed over' if Bioware released the "real" ending as free DLC in 3 or 4 months time and stated that it was to keep peoples descisions at the end honest and make people feel about the choices they made, i.e you were indoctrinated.

This way nobody knows, nobody can spill the beans and forge the best ending, everybody is fallable. MASTERSTROKE

No matter how they put it, releasing a game without an ending and charging for that ending later is screwing over your fans.

I see where you are coming from and your argument is perfectly legit.

Technically the game as it stands is complete, is it worth the money i paid for it, in my opinion YES it most certainly is.

This extra ending would bring story telling to a whole new level, the only downside i could see would be is if Bioware charged for it but honestly i don't think they would.