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[sfam]

Kylamero wrote...

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I would not feel 'screwed over' if Bioware released the "real" ending as free DLC in 3 or 4 months time and stated that it was to keep peoples descisions at the end honest and make people feel about the choices they made, i.e you were indoctrinated.

This way nobody knows, nobody can spill the beans and forge the best ending, everybody is fallable. MASTERSTROKE

I would be fine with that approach...IF they told us up-front that there would be a subsequent final free DLC ending.  That isn't what has happened.  I do agree I'd still like them to do this, but at this point they clearly have broken trust with their most loyal fans - and I count myself among the idiots who replayed Mass Effect 1 & 2 in order to have the "perfect save" so that my decisions would be reflected in an absolutely glorious capstone ending...

[Cirrusstrafe]

I don't see any of this as being "screwed over" or an "unfinished game."

They have a story to tell, and maybe they're not done telling it.  Production costs are insane now.  We, as gamers, are partly at fault.  We want beautiful and expensive things very fast.  Sometimes they can't do what they want under a $60 price tag, and we're so damn resistant to it being any higher.

Was ME1 and unfinished game? 2? The story didn't end there, did it? Our story may not end here, either. However, like the path FF13-2 is going down, maybe DLC does extend the true story. Maybe they have a tale and rather than pulling a Halo 2 and doing what we think they did at first (crap out a very rushed ending), they're choosing to release it piecemeal like Half-life 2 episodes (the fact that 3 never came out notwithstanding).

I have a job, I make more than $10 an hour. I am perfectly capable of accepting an additional payment and that games don't need to be $60 forever, much like we've most past the old $50 price.

I want to believe, nay I do believe, that they aren't dicking us. I believe that they are trying to pull off the most insane and risky endeavor ever attempted in game. Something we shouldn't, as a community, shoot down before it blooms over $10 or "omg wtf unfinished product!!11."

If I'm wrong, then whatever, we get meh endings very few people liked. If I'm right? Then this series has become legend.

Modifié par Cirrusstrafe, 15 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[Mcfly616]

Trobon I do understand what you're saying. I just believe he is either indoctrinated OR dreaming(either way he's unconscious) I was under the same assumption that the only way he survives indoctrination is if he chooses to destroy. However(and this is why I admit this one is just a theory) I feel like he is alive in all endings bcuz the choice does and will carry weight in the final ending which is why they make you decide one of the 3. If I am wrong and what happened is the real ending then I will completely agree with you that Bioware created the biggest letdown of an ending ever. But him being alive in all 3 endings and them just showing it in destroy, doesn't disprove the fact that he was not conscious and still alive. It just disproves whoevers theory it was that for him to break free of it he had to choose Destroy

[Trobon18]

You know what? This is pointless. I'm not saying that in frustration or anything like that. But me arguing with others is just pointless. We have the ending we have no matter what. We can all hope for more later. I know I do and I know most of you do. All this is doing is wasting energy. Energy that should be spent talking about other things.

We all care about this game a lot. It makes it easy to get bogged down arguing about petty things. It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong about this and I shouldn't be trying to prove one way or another.

Sorry for arguing and I hope no one got too upset over it.

[Kylamero]

sfam wrote...

Kylamero wrote...

Trobon18 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

Pretty much. I find it amazing that people would rather believe they are trying actively to screw us all over than they would believe they wrote a poor ending. At least in the latter you can believe they thought it was a good ending. In the former you know they are just screwing you over.

I would not feel 'screwed over' if Bioware released the "real" ending as free DLC in 3 or 4 months time and stated that it was to keep peoples descisions at the end honest and make people feel about the choices they made, i.e you were indoctrinated.

This way nobody knows, nobody can spill the beans and forge the best ending, everybody is fallable. MASTERSTROKE

I would be fine with that approach...IF they told us up-front that there would be a subsequent final free DLC ending.  That isn't what has happened.  I do agree I'd still like them to do this, but at this point they clearly have broken trust with their most loyal fans - and I count myself among the idiots who replayed Mass Effect 1 & 2 in order to have the "perfect save" so that my decisions would be reflected in an absolutely glorious capstone ending...

If they told us it would happen people would be suspicious and work out the ending is a lie. This way it's a big risk but people could at least have the satisfaction of knowing they went into the ending not being any wiser that the descisions they would make could have been possible indoctrination. Telling people up front there is more to the ending would arouse suspicion.

Of course there could be no ending but if there was i would look back on this moment in years to come and think wow, they got me. Good one.

[sfam]

Trobon18 wrote...
Tell me which is more likely:

A) A company risks financial loss via sales and stocks in order to trick their fans in believing there was one ending when in reality there was another

or

 Someone at Bioware made a Deus Ex Machina ending they thought was good, but the majority of fans disliked.

There are even some fans who like this ending. So it is more than possible the writers were among those people and just wrote what you and I find to be a poor ending.

Just to be clear, there's NO chance that the vast majority of all those insanely dedicated Mass Effect developers and designers of all stripes didn't know what a complete train wreck this ending left in its wake.  There is simply no chance that with that much attention to detail to get the combat and RPG elements right, to spend incredible detail on the NPC stories and all the rest to get us to truly care about these characters that any more than 2% of them could have looked at that ending and say, "Yeah, that's the right way to end this!"  I'd bet my paycheck that there are thousands of user testing reports submitted that start off with, "Ya know, all of your fans will revolt when they see the ending you have given them...you know that, don't you?"

They all knew. They had to know. Its so obvious, its not possible for them not to know.  I do feel bad for them that the vast majority of those who poured their souls into this endeavor were clearly powerless to prevent this.  This is most likely the result of corporate absurdity that can only be understood inside a truly bizarre decision making process.

Modifié par sfam, 15 mars 2012 - 12:30 .

[Trobon18]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Trobon I do understand what you're saying. I just believe he is either indoctrinated OR dreaming(either way he's unconscious) I was under the same assumption that the only way he survives indoctrination is if he chooses to destroy. However(and this is why I admit this one is just a theory) I feel like he is alive in all endings bcuz the choice does and will carry weight in the final ending which is why they make you decide one of the 3. If I am wrong and what happened is the real ending then I will completely agree with you that Bioware created the biggest letdown of an ending ever. But him being alive in all 3 endings and them just showing it in destroy, doesn't disprove the fact that he was not conscious and still alive. It just disproves whoevers theory it was that for him to break free of it he had to choose Destroy

You could very well be right. Let's hope we find out someday.

[Kylamero]

Trobon this isn't an argument, it's a damn good discussion. Like you say we all love this series and we all have raised excellent arguments for our points of view. In the end i guess only time will tell my friend.

Modifié par Kylamero, 15 mars 2012 - 12:32 .

[Warhawk7137]

Trobon18 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

sfam wrote...

So bottom line, this thread is advocating the belief that BioWare put out an unfinished game in order to ****** off their entire fan base? Really??? Sounds like a bit if a stretch, but I suppose it at least clears them of being the worst closers in the history of game writing.

It'd be a bit of a stretch to assume the latter as well. 

Either way you look at it there's problems with the ending.  I just think it's more likely that they would release a logically coherent unfinished ending with a twist than a completely incoherent finished ending with a couple of plot holes you could pilot a dreadnaught through.

Ultimately, based on the actual things we see in the game, the indoctrination theory makes the most sense to me.  There's a lot of evidence supporting it, even if there's no smoking gun.

Again though, there's lots of "evidence" supporting that the moon landing was a hoax or that 9-11 was an inside job. That's because the way theories like that work is they take the things they see and make a theory to fit it.

There's a difference between a conspiracy theory, and interpreting an artistic work.  ME3's ending was crafted a particular way - we're just coming up with ideas and theories as to why it was done the way it was, and what the particular elements mean.

The moon landings and 9/11 actually happened a particular way, and thus the elements are a matter of historical fact.  The "evidence" you reference is by-and-large junk that's been discredited via historical and scientific fact.  Art, however, does not have that quality -- we are given a certain amount of information, and construct interpretations of that information based on our reasoning.  They may align with the intent of the arist, they may not.  We don't know whether they do at this point.  But art necessitates interpretation; historical fact does not (at least not in the same mode).

[Mcfly616]

Him being alive no matter what the choice he makes, is the only way everybody can play the endgame dlc. They have to account for everybody's final decision. And it will be take into account. As I said that's just my theory. But what isn't a theory to me and is just plain truth/fact, is that he's alive. If I'm wrong I will accept it. But I don't see that day coming

[N7Raider]

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Theories such as this appear with a lot of popular games with a fanbase who don't want to believe the writers let them down.

They exist to explain away plotholes, regardless of the game writer's intentions. They didn't plan this. You can "read" the plot of the game like Shepard is indoctrinated, just like you can believe that Squall died in FF8 at the end of disc 1. But if you think Bioware actually planned that, maybe they've indoctrinated you.

ya know what dude GTFO *points to door*
Do you just enjoy being the biggest kill joy in the room?  Does it make you feel special or smart?  Who cares if people are trying to rationalize the whole thing and who cares if we're wrong we'll be dissapointed later, but for now at least we can hope, we don't need smart ass people like you telling us why we're thinking the way we are and we don't need people like you taking away any shred of hope we have because you evidently feel the need to be the "logical" one.  

[Mcfly616]

Great thread right now.

[Trobon18]

Kylamero wrote...

Trobon this isn't an[color=rgb(255, 0, 0)"> argument, it's a damn good discussion. Like you say we all love this series and we all have raised excellent ]arguments[/color] for our points of view. In the end i guess only time will tell my friend.

Seriously though, I think I was getting too invested in trying to prove what in reality is something people are using as hope. That's not something I want. The truth is the Indoc theory could very well be right and the logic that it defies is no worse than the logic the current ending defies.

Modifié par Trobon18, 15 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[Sparkky]

This is all the proof I needed

http://imgur.com/0sSDD

Modifié par Sparkky, 15 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[Tobey2011]

Oh my, this is kind of sad. This "theory" is just desperate people grasping at straws.

[Warhawk7137]

Sparkky wrote...

This is all the proof I needed

http://imgur.com/0sSDD

It's certainly no smoking gun, but it's notable nonetheless.

[LegendaryBlade]

Turtles_AWD wrote...

Theories such as this appear with a lot of popular games with a fanbase who don't want to believe the writers let them down.

They exist to explain away plotholes, regardless of the game writer's intentions. They didn't plan this. You can "read" the plot of the game like Shepard is indoctrinated, just like you can believe that Squall died in FF8 at the end of disc 1. But if you think Bioware actually planned that, maybe they've indoctrinated you.

There's a big difference between Indoctrination theory and Squall dies.

[Sparkky]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Sparkky wrote...

This is all the proof I needed

http://imgur.com/0sSDD

It's certainly no smoking gun, but it's notable nonetheless.

Not really a smoking gun I agree, but it just syncs up with the crazies too well.
It just seems like too much of a coincidence that both those choices change the eyes, the other doesn't... not to mention that when you destroy the reapers you get the video of shepard being alive.

[Kylamero]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Oh my, this is kind of sad. This "theory" is just desperate people grasping at straws.

Why is it? There are certainly some compelling supporting arguments that give it at least some credability.

[jarms48]

I was in one of the full armour sets when I was hit by the beam, then I was in damaged N7 armour when I awoke.

Conclussion ending Fake.

Modifié par jarms48, 15 mars 2012 - 12:40 .

[Warhawk7137]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Oh my, this is kind of sad. This "theory" is just desperate people grasping at straws.

People keep making this same exact post, without any argument to the contrary.  The theory may very well end up being false, but "the theory is false, ergo, the theory is false" is hardly proof.

Until we get more information, I don't think it can be proven or disproven.  It's a theory that fits the elements, therefore, it is a valid theory in the absence of further clarifying information.  It is a valid theory not because it has an element of truth, but because if BioWare were to come out tomorrow and say it is true, it would not contradict what is actually shown in the game.  Basically, whether its true or not, it is logically consistent in context, and thus is worthy of consideration for the time being.

[Doctoglethorpe]

People are missing my point and not focusing on the single piece of evedense I believe is the only wholly significant piece.

To answer an earler question, I don't think this is as big of a financial risk as your letting oN, they already made a ton of profit in less then a week. I also think the outcome, if theory is true, stands to do a lot more for the company then you are giving credit. I think the benefits outweigh the risks if the risk is based off something so profound. Second, this is not just the case of "employee slipped a plot hole, bioware didnt have time to catch it. This is the end of the game were talking about, this is the part they would of put the most thought in. After the depth of all the other missions why would the ending be the one part to suddenly get no attention payed to it? Plus the way the mechanics of the ending worked, seeing your companions dead on the ground with low ems scroe, that proves they we're thinking about what was happening during this scene and made specific programming chances in it reflecting these characters.  It wouldn't make sense for them to be aware of the inconsistencies and leave it in anyway.   And the plot hole itself is just too massive to of been an accident, theres no way it they would of done it if it was supposed to be taken as real. It just seems to dream like plain and simple.

I've weighed the two answers in every light, the answer is always the same. Big ploy to have most memorable ending ever (oh look, isnt that what Casey said he wanted) is more likely then massive sudden **** up after such a pronominal game.

Also, your point of DA2 is negated. DA2 was all around a somewhat rushed game. The ending was really no different then the rest of it. Mass Effect 3 is an entirely different case because we see through the entirety of the game a level of pure excellence at least on the story telling side and it suddenly and abruptly shifts at one specific point, the point that in all likely hood was the part they focused on the most throughout the development. Games aren't like writing an essay, you don't just start and the beginning and end with the end, you develop the thing as a whole and piece it together along the way. The ending would of been in for months if not years by the time the game was assembled and shipped. .

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 15 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[the red boon]

Kylamero wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Oh my, this is kind of sad. This "theory" is just desperate people grasping at straws.

Why is it? There are certainly some compelling supporting arguments that give it at least some credability.

Tobey is correct and I find it sad you're trying to justify these horrible endings. We shouldn't let bioware screw us over with these endings. We the consumer should demand quality for the entire product. 

[J-Reyno]

Well, I will at least have to agree with the Normandy part of this theory. I cannot imagine for the life of me that Liara and Javik (who I took on the final run during my first playthrough) would abandon my Shepard and just leave him there. What's more, in spite of the fact that they were both directly behind me as Harbinger's beam hit (and yes, I turned around to look at them just as it hit)... they both step out of the Normandy looking peachy as opposed to Shep being nearly FUBAR after the hit.

Even assuming the beam just somehow missed them, would Liara and Javik REALLY just leave Shep there? I mean, sure I didn't romance Liara but they were still very close. Hell she retrieved his dead body once because in her words she just couldn't let him go. And Javik, he wants vengeance against the Reapers badly and I cannot for the life of me imagine that he's okay with turning tail without damn good reason.

If the last part is mostly a dream, it would make sense out of the two you bring with you appearing from the Normandy perfectly unharmed. Also, it would explain why they chose to show the two squadmates that your Shep is closest to, as Shep would naturally dream about those closest to him.

I do think this is possible, and of course I'm hoping it turns out to be true and we get some real closure in the near future. I don't know WHY they would choose to make us wait for closure, but if these endings are ultimately just one big screwup then I'll understand that even less. So I'll take what I can get. Until I know for sure I remain highly skeptical.

[Kylamero]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

People are missing my point and not focusing on the single piece of evedense I believe is the only wholly significant piece.

To answer an earler question, I don't think this is as big of a financial risk as your letting oN, they already made a ton of profit in less then a week. I also think the outcome, if theory is true, stands to do a lot more for the company then you are giving credit. I think the benefits outweigh the risks if the risk is based off something so profound. Second, this is not just the case of "employee slipped a plot hole, bioware didnt have time to catch it. This is the end of the game were talking about, this is the part they would of put the most thought in. After the depth of all the other missions why would the ending be the one part to suddenly get no attention payed to it? That doesn't make sense. And the plot whole itself is just too massive to of been an accident, theres no way it they would of done it if it was supposed to be taken as real. It just seems to dream like plain and simple.

I've weighed the two answers in every light, the answer is always the same. Big ploy to have most memorable ending ever (oh look, isnt that what Casey said he wanted) is more likely then massive sudden **** up after such a pronominal game.

Also, your point of DA2 is negated. DA2 was all around a somewhat rushed game. The ending was really no different then the rest of it. Mass Effect 3 is an entirely different case because we see through the entirety of the game a level of pure excellence at least on the story telling side and it suddenly and abruptly shifts at one specific point, the point that in all likely hood was the part they focused on the most throughout the development. Games aren't like writing an essay, you don't just start and the beginning and end with the end, you develop the thing as a whole and piece it together along the way. The ending would of been in for months if not years by the time the game was assembled and shipped. .

You hit the nail on the head here i think.

The most compelling point is probably the simplest, the plot of the last 10 minutes, starchild etc does not match the intricate woven masterpiece that is ME1,ME2 and yes the rest of ME3. You throw in the indoctrination theory and the extra ending and all of a sudden you have the storytelling and emotional impact that Bioware is famous for.