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[Spectre_Shepard]

I have hope. Very very little, but its there.

[Warhawk7137]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

1. I am a writer, just not for BioWare.
2. Insulting me isn't really the best way to conduct an argument.
3. The use of hallucination and dreams in ficiton isn't "deceiving the reader."  It's a pretty common plot device.

What I'm saying is, I watch the ending, and based on the various elements of it, combined with the similarities with the dreams earlier in the game, and my conclusion is that it's happening in Shepard's head, and not in "reality."

Modifié par Warhawk7137, 15 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Kylamero]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

I think you underestimate the importance of indoctrination in the ME series. The implications it's had on some of the main protaginists is astronomical, there's no reason it can't affect Shepard in some way. It's a perfectly logical theory and may or may not have been Bioware's plan all along.

[STAR_KILLER423]

I really want to believe the indoctrination theory, but I also don't want to get my hopes up to be crushed but its getting harder not to hope.
I don't know if anyone else noticed but something stood out to me. It concerns the Prothean VI you meet on Thessia. While there he states he detects an indoctrinated presence when Leng shows up. So because the protheans studied indoctrination they were able to code security protocols to detect indoctrination. Now when you rescue the VI from the Cerberus Station he says something that I found interesting. Instead of saying anything about indoctrination, he instead says that since security protocols have been deactivated I will comply. That struck me as odd. If they he is referring to his security protocols why would it matter if Shep isn't indoctrinated. I mean he was captured by cerberus right? They are indoctrinated no? They took him to find out about the crucible and catalyst right? Maybe they disabled his security protocols to get him to tell them what they wanted.
It just stood out to me figured I would share and see what everyone thought.

This could be completely wrong and I understand that, I just thought it was interesting.

[garf]

I remember noticing that too. dismissing it, but noticing it.

[novaseeker]

Kylamero wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Cuz they just added Stargazer for ****s and giggles, right?

It creates a false environment for you to make a choice you think benefits the galaxy most, it even tries to convince you to pick control. You pick control you are indoctrinated.

Fighting the reapers isn't the only theme of this game, for many characters it's been a fight with indoctrination. TIM, Saren, they all tried to CONTROL the reapers, or MERGE with them.

Right.

The main antagonist of the game is the reapers, but there are three sub-antagonsists:  Saren, TIM and Harbinger.  The hallucination/indoctrination sequence involves all three.  Harbinger is speaking to you through the projection of the boy.  The control choice is TIM's choice, which led to indoctrination.  The synthesis choice is Saren's choice, which led to indoctrination.  Only the destroy choice, which is Anderson's choice (and he was never indoctrinated), is the choice that avoids indoctrination.  The sequence ties together all three sub-antagonists together in a mental fight that spans the experience of the entire series.  

But I think that more is still to come, now that the mental fight is done.

[Warhawk7137]

STAR_KILLER423 wrote...

I really want to believe the indoctrination theory, but I also don't want to get my hopes up to be crushed but its getting harder not to hope.
I don't know if anyone else noticed but something stood out to me. It concerns the Prothean VI you meet on Thessia. While there he states he detects an indoctrinated presence when Leng shows up. So because the protheans studied indoctrination they were able to code security protocols to detect indoctrination. Now when you rescue the VI from the Cerberus Station he says something that I found interesting. Instead of saying anything about indoctrination, he instead says that since security protocols have been deactivated I will comply. That struck me as odd. If they he is referring to his security protocols why would it matter if Shep isn't indoctrinated. I mean he was captured by cerberus right? They are indoctrinated no? They took him to find out about the crucible and catalyst right? Maybe they disabled his security protocols to get him to tell them what they wanted.
It just stood out to me figured I would share and see what everyone thought.

This could be completely wrong and I understand that, I just thought it was interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting.  There's a few ways to look at it, between the security protocols being disabled, and indoctrination not actually being an on/off switch in the first place (it's more of a gradual process than a state)

[Rocktel]

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

[garf]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

1. I am a writer, just not for BioWare.
2. Insulting me isn't really the best way to conduct an argument.
3. The use of hallucination and dreams in ficiton isn't "deceiving the reader."  It's a pretty common plot device.

What I'm saying is, I watch the ending, and based on the various elements of it, combined with the similarities with the dreams earlier in the game, and my conclusion is that it's happening in Shepard's head, and not in "reality."

Another thing that occured to me. The only other time that shepherd does the slow mo thing she does while staggering to the beam is in her dreams.

as to indoctrination. Let's make it clear. Sucessful indoctrination is bad juju... but I see no reason why our theory cannot apply to a failed indoctrination ATTEMPT.

[Warhawk7137]

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

[Warhawk7137]

garf wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

1. I am a writer, just not for BioWare.
2. Insulting me isn't really the best way to conduct an argument.
3. The use of hallucination and dreams in ficiton isn't "deceiving the reader."  It's a pretty common plot device.

What I'm saying is, I watch the ending, and based on the various elements of it, combined with the similarities with the dreams earlier in the game, and my conclusion is that it's happening in Shepard's head, and not in "reality."

Another thing that occured to me. The only other time that shepherd does the slow mo thing she does while staggering to the beam is in her dreams.

as to indoctrination. Let's make it clear. Sucessful indoctrination is bad juju... but I see no reason why our theory cannot apply to a failed indoctrination ATTEMPT.

Right, that's one of the many particular things that support the theory.  There are others too.

And indoctrination isn't an on/off switch, it's a process.  Even people very far down the indoctrination road can, temporarily, resist, like Saren, through force of will.

[MisterNugNug]

I don't get this Indoctrination business. IF you're a reaper standing above Sheppard, WHY WHY WHY, go to the lengths of Indoctrinating him/her, WHY NOT JUST KILL THEM?

[Kylamero]

You can convince Saren to top himself in the first game which shows he had some resistance.

The TIM suicide was very reminiscent of this, i think it's symbollism.

[STAR_KILLER423]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

STAR_KILLER423 wrote...

I really want to believe the indoctrination theory, but I also don't want to get my hopes up to be crushed but its getting harder not to hope.
I don't know if anyone else noticed but something stood out to me. It concerns the Prothean VI you meet on Thessia. While there he states he detects an indoctrinated presence when Leng shows up. So because the protheans studied indoctrination they were able to code security protocols to detect indoctrination. Now when you rescue the VI from the Cerberus Station he says something that I found interesting. Instead of saying anything about indoctrination, he instead says that since security protocols have been deactivated I will comply. That struck me as odd. If they he is referring to his security protocols why would it matter if Shep isn't indoctrinated. I mean he was captured by cerberus right? They are indoctrinated no? They took him to find out about the crucible and catalyst right? Maybe they disabled his security protocols to get him to tell them what they wanted.
It just stood out to me figured I would share and see what everyone thought.

This could be completely wrong and I understand that, I just thought it was interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting.  There's a few ways to look at it, between the security protocols being disabled, and indoctrination not actually being an on/off switch in the first place (it's more of a gradual process than a state)

Another thing is what Javik says about indoctrination. They had a splinter group in his cycle as well, doing exactly what cerberus is doing. The reapers indoctrinated some protheans and turned them against the others. But if they could detect indoctrination why was this such a problem. I thought maybe they couldnt detect indoctrination if it was still subtle or something, and only if they were fully (or almost completely) indoctrinated.
Now I know this is really grasping at anything I can. But again I just thought it was interesting. I'm not saying that this point it concrete evidence or anything just throwing it out for (civil) disscussion. 

[Warhawk7137]

MisterNugNug wrote...

I don't get this Indoctrination business. IF you're a reaper standing above Sheppard, WHY WHY WHY, go to the lengths of Indoctrinating him/her, WHY NOT JUST KILL THEM?

They do seem to have a sneaky kind of respect for him.  Maybe he'd be useful.

If you recall, what happened on earth is that they indoctrinated the political leaders to calm the populace into cooperating with the Reapers.  I think Anderson mentions that (or its in an email).

[Kylamero]

MisterNugNug wrote...

I don't get this Indoctrination business. IF you're a reaper standing above Sheppard, WHY WHY WHY, go to the lengths of Indoctrinating him/her, WHY NOT JUST KILL THEM?

Haha that never seemed to go well for them if i were the Reapers i would have resorted to something else by then.

[Tobey2011]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

1. I am a writer, just not for BioWare.
2. Insulting me isn't really the best way to conduct an argument.
3. The use of hallucination and dreams in ficiton isn't "deceiving the reader."  It's a pretty common plot device.

What I'm saying is, I watch the ending, and based on the various elements of it, combined with the similarities with the dreams earlier in the game, and my conclusion is that it's happening in Shepard's head, and not in "reality."

I'm just pointing out some things that you (purposefully?) ignore, don't mean to insult you. I don't know about the fiction you watched, but usually it is revealed wheter or not or at least clearly hinted at wheter or not there might be a possiblity for hallucination/dreams/deception, and there are no such clear hints here.
Also any dreams Shepard had in this game were revealed right after, by him waking up. I seriously question that you are a writer to be honest, could you point me to some of your fictional publications?

[MisterNugNug]

? The Reaper's sole purpose is to wipe out organic life. Not to rule or subjugate. Its to decimate. Killing Sheppard would be catastrophic for the unified alien races. They're resolve and morale would die.

[STAR_KILLER423]

MisterNugNug wrote...

I don't get this Indoctrination business. IF you're a reaper standing above Sheppard, WHY WHY WHY, go to the lengths of Indoctrinating him/her, WHY NOT JUST KILL THEM?

Harrbinger says to preserve Shep's body. They want him for whatever reason, to indoctrinate, to study, something.

[Kylamero]

novaseeker wrote...

Kylamero wrote...

AllergevKev wrote...

Cuz they just added Stargazer for ****s and giggles, right?

It creates a false environment for you to make a choice you think benefits the galaxy most, it even tries to convince you to pick control. You pick control you are indoctrinated.

Fighting the reapers isn't the only theme of this game, for many characters it's been a fight with indoctrination. TIM, Saren, they all tried to CONTROL the reapers, or MERGE with them.

Right.

The main antagonist of the game is the reapers, but there are three sub-antagonsists:  Saren, TIM and Harbinger.  The hallucination/indoctrination sequence involves all three.  Harbinger is speaking to you through the projection of the boy.  The control choice is TIM's choice, which led to indoctrination.  The synthesis choice is Saren's choice, which led to indoctrination.  Only the destroy choice, which is Anderson's choice (and he was never indoctrinated), is the choice that avoids indoctrination.  The sequence ties together all three sub-antagonists together in a mental fight that spans the experience of the entire series.  

But I think that more is still to come, now that the mental fight is done.

That's essentially the way i see it.

[Sparkky]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

MisterNugNug wrote...

I don't get this Indoctrination business. IF you're a reaper standing above Sheppard, WHY WHY WHY, go to the lengths of Indoctrinating him/her, WHY NOT JUST KILL THEM?

They do seem to have a sneaky kind of respect for him.  Maybe he'd be useful.

If you recall, what happened on earth is that they indoctrinated the political leaders to calm the populace into cooperating with the Reapers.  I think Anderson mentions that (or its in an email).

Remember how long it took to wipe out the protheans? Javik was born into the war.
If sherpard could do something speed this process along, it seems like a good idea to indoctrinate

[novaseeker]

Tobey2011 wrote...
Also any dreams Shepard had in this game were revealed right after, by him waking up.

Same here, if you have high enough EMS and choose the non-indoctrinate option.  In fact, the "breath" you hear in that scene is virtually identical to the one you hear when Shep wakes from the nightmares -- virtually an identical sound.

[Warhawk7137]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an interpretation of the ending we got.

Great argument...(not), obviously you are implying that the writers conspired to decieve you, as there is no rock-hard evidence for indoctrination. There is however rock-hard evidence, as you can see it with your eyes, that you have three choices which are minally differentiated and are obviously meant serious and poor writing. This you all dispute by "Shepard was fed images by the reapers" or something vague like that.

So again, why do you think your line of thought is more logical, just because the endings in itself are illogically written? Maybe you should be a writer then as your fantasy appears to be well developed and logical.

1. I am a writer, just not for BioWare.
2. Insulting me isn't really the best way to conduct an argument.
3. The use of hallucination and dreams in ficiton isn't "deceiving the reader."  It's a pretty common plot device.

What I'm saying is, I watch the ending, and based on the various elements of it, combined with the similarities with the dreams earlier in the game, and my conclusion is that it's happening in Shepard's head, and not in "reality."

I'm just pointing out some things that you (purposefully?) ignore, don't mean to insult you. I don't know about the fiction you watched, but usually it is revealed wheter or not or at least clearly hinted at wheter or not there might be a possiblity for hallucination/dreams/deception, and there are no such clear hints here.
Also any dreams Shepard had in this game were revealed right after, by him waking up. I seriously question that you are a writer to be honest, could you point me to some of your fictional publications?

I'm not sure what i'm purposefully ignoring.  The ending where Shepard wakes up in rubble could be the kind of scene you're referring to.  Sure, there's no smoking gun, but there's a lot of little things pointing to it.  And like I've said, even if the theory is true, there are significant problems with the execution.

Don't actually have anything published yet... I have a lot of poetry, but I haven't sent any in to any magazines or anything.  I'm working on a science fiction novel at the moment.  It's kind of something I do on the side.  I majored in Creative Writing, but I'm in law school now, and I don't have as much time to write as I'd like.  Or, at least, to write things that aren't legal in nature.

[Thornquist]

If you people just took one step to the side, and saw the ramifications this could have for Bioware, you would see that not only would fans be pissed, but the ENTIRE world would be pissed.

That would be like admitting that you shipped a unfinished product. Even IF you released a free DLC, their lines would be spammed with furious people who dont have Internet.

They do exist btw, people are still complaining that Blizzard will require Diablo to be online.

It. makes. no. sense.

Best we could hope for, is a "epilogue" DLC, one that fleshes out the very short ending sequence, and you better be prepared to pay for it.

[duffenass]

The codex to the rescue! Seriously this is the biggest hint so far.
Or it could just be referencing the security footage you see in ME2 of the Cerberus scientists jumping at things that aren't there...

Modifié par duffenass, 15 mars 2012 - 01:37 .