254 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterNugNug]

Sparkky wrote...

Remember how long it took to wipe out the protheans? Javik was born into the war.
If sherpard could do something speed this process along, it seems like a good idea to indoctrinate

Or you could kill the one person who has been a thorn in your side the entire trilogy.  You could kill the one person who has unified and brought all of the galactic organic and synthetic arms to bear against you.  Its the penultimate battle for all of the galaxy.  You've got their leader, unconscious, just lying there, right underneath you.  Please tell me how its logical for a Reaper to sit there and say yeah, its time for Indoctrination.  Yep, makes perfect sense.  We can effectively kill the enemy morale and resolve with one simple move, NOPE.  We're gonna play mindgames.  At this crucial moment, we're gonna muck about.  Makes perfect sense. 

[Rocktel]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

Actually all oft that is assumptions. There is nothing in any of that which says this is because of indoctrination.

[WarMachine919]

I just don't think Bioware would every place a gamble on such an epic mind-screw. I'm sorry to say but I think the ending is more the result of careless haste than anything. I really don't believe the theory but I like it better than the ending I got. As far as I'm concerned, it's true for me.

[Warhawk7137]

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

Actually all oft that is assumptions. There is nothing in any of that which says this is because of indoctrination.

It's intepretation, not assumption.  Just because there's no smoking gun doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't point that way.

[Rocktel]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

Actually all oft that is assumptions. There is nothing in any of that which says this is because of indoctrination.

It's intepretation, not assumption.  Just because there's no smoking gun doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't point that way.

No it is an assumption. Evidence isn't something that you can interpret, it is a clear and direct link. There is none of that in the speculation.

[STAR_KILLER423]

Thornquist wrote...

If you people just took one step to the side, and saw the ramifications this could have for Bioware, you would see that not only would fans be pissed, but the ENTIRE world would be pissed.

That would be like admitting that you shipped a unfinished product. Even IF you released a free DLC, their lines would be spammed with furious people who dont have Internet.

They do exist btw, people are still complaining that Blizzard will require Diablo to be online.

It. makes. no. sense.

Best we could hope for, is a "epilogue" DLC, one that fleshes out the very short ending sequence, and you better be prepared to pay for it.

Look at the other side as well. Indoctrination is one of the biggest points in the series, but we have never seen it effect Shepard. If this is the plan, they just blew open what everyone thinks a video game has to be. If it is done right. They would have effectively fooled everyone into think that the game was done and over. In the game YOU are Shep. No other game has ever attempted to fully integrate the fact that YOU are the character like this. To fool you as well as the character.
Sure this is risky as hell. Sure it might end up bad for them. Sure it could destroy their reputation. Sure it could ****** off some, if not most, of their fans.
But it would be one of the greatest attempts in story-telling and video games to date.
This is all assuming the theory is true of course. Only time will tell what they do and what the repercussions will be.

[Thornquist]

duffenass wrote...

The codex to the rescue! Seriously this is the biggest hint so far.
Or it could just be refrencing the security footage you see in ME2 of the Cerberus scientists jumping at things that aren't there...

Now, If Shepherd had been complaining about headaches for the last half part of the game, I would be more aboard.

[Warhawk7137]

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

Actually all oft that is assumptions. There is nothing in any of that which says this is because of indoctrination.

It's intepretation, not assumption.  Just because there's no smoking gun doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't point that way.

No it is an assumption. Evidence isn't something that you can interpret, it is a clear and direct link. There is none of that in the speculation.

Works of art require intepretation.  What we actually see fits with the theory.  The theory explains things that don't make sense if they are interpreted in other ways.

[ShaneP]

the red boon wrote...
Well you just admitted you are in denial which is a sad thing because you are truly glorifying bioware to the point of inhuman. "I find it impossible to believe they would purposely ship a game with an awful ending that leaves more questions than answers." Bioware did ship a game that left more questions then answers that's why there is so much hate towards the endings and that's why you're making up a theory that makes sense to an otherwise unfinished game which they did release. Do you have any idea how companies work and what deadlines are?

Oh please, just cut the smug condescention already. I'm not trying to glorify Bioware at all, I am actually making the argument that is is inconcievable for ANY game company to knowingly release a game with an incomplete ending, and that it would make even less sense for them to release one that they *know* is rubbish.

The endings leaked are almost identical to the endings we see in the game. I simply don't buy the argument that they sucked due to time pressure because those leaks indicate that those were always the intended endings, give or take a couple of lines of cut dialogue. They had AMPLE time to change them and chose not too, so don't sit there on your smug throne acting as if I'm unaware of how time pressure works, I've been gaming for more than 15 years.

My theory is simply that Bioware attempted to make an ending that broke the formulaeic mold of "Kill the bad guys. run off into the sunset, and live happily ever after" and simply got it a bit wrong. If anything, the approach of waiting to see what Bioware comes up with makes a lot more sense than going off on wild tangents simply for the sake of wanting to accept anything that avoids the simplest explanation that Bioware simply made a miscalculation.

And hell, if it turns out that Bioware have bested us on this one I'll quite happily eat my words.

Modifié par ShaneP, 15 mars 2012 - 01:43 .

[STAR_KILLER423]

Thornquist wrote...

duffenass wrote...

The codex to the rescue! Seriously this is the biggest hint so far.
Or it could just be refrencing the security footage you see in ME2 of the Cerberus scientists jumping at things that aren't there...

Now, If Shepherd had been complaining about headaches for the last half part of the game, I would be more aboard.

Durring the part where TIM is "controlling" Shep and Anderson, you hear wispers, shep holds his head and looks in pain. Again nothing concrete but interesting.

[Tobey2011]

Well, I don't really want to discuss this matter further. Believe in it people, I won't try to change your mind anymore, it's inherently impossible anyways.

[Rocktel]

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

Warhawk7137 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That the original ending is stupid is not evidence for the indoctrination theory.

I don't think it is either.  But, there are a LOT of other things pointing to the indoctrination theory that doesn't require assuming anything at all about the developer.  The dreams, the eyes, the boy, the control scheme, the UI, the "plot holes," the "secret" clip for the best ending, some of the visuals, etc.

Actually all oft that is assumptions. There is nothing in any of that which says this is because of indoctrination.

It's intepretation, not assumption.  Just because there's no smoking gun doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't point that way.

No it is an assumption. Evidence isn't something that you can interpret, it is a clear and direct link. There is none of that in the speculation.

Works of art require intepretation.  What we actually see fits with the theory.  The theory explains things that don't make sense if they are interpreted in other ways.

That what you see could fit the theory isn't evidence, its sttill speculation. I can very easily say that the whole series is just a nightmare Shepard is having and it would still fit with everything. Its not evidence.

And no the indoctrination theory dosn't explain anything. It just replaces the existing plotholes and bad writing with its own plotholes and bad writing.

[Rockpopple]

Keep in mind that Indoctrination isn't a conscious effort by Reapers. Reapers Indoctrinate simply by being there. They don't target someone and think, "Hm, I think I shall bend..... YOU to my will." Nope. They're Eldritch Horrors from dark space. Just their presence will drive you insane. And this is canon, btw.

[STAR_KILLER423]

Tobey2011 wrote...

Well, I don't really want to discuss this matter further. Believe in it people, I won't try to change your mind anymore, it's inherently impossible anyways.

You shouldn't be trying to change peoples minds. Like no one should be trying to change yours. This should be able to be disscussed civily without attacking one another. We should be presenting why we think what we do in a logical reasonable matter, as you should counter it in a logical reasonable matter.
Everyone has an opinion. I am not telling things I noticed saying that they are "proof" that its true, I am throwing it out there for discussion.

[Dark Wyn]

STAR_KILLER423 wrote...

Tobey2011 wrote...

Well, I don't really want to discuss this matter further. Believe in it people, I won't try to change your mind anymore, it's inherently impossible anyways.

You shouldn't be trying to change peoples minds. Like no one should be trying to change yours. This should be able to be disscussed civily without attacking one another. We should be presenting why we think what we do in a logical reasonable matter, as you should counter it in a logical reasonable matter.
Everyone has an opinion. I am not telling things I noticed saying that they are "proof" that its true, I am throwing it out there for discussion.

I agree.  None of us should try to force our opinins on one another.  We've done awesome about keeping this cause civil, let's continue that trend.
If others see our thoughts and they feel there is merit and they begin to agree, awesome.  If others here begin to see that the indoctrination theory has too many flaws for them and disagree, more power to them.  As long as we keep our heads and respect one another this thread won't crumble.

Modifié par Dark Wyn, 15 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[STAR_KILLER423]

Rocktel wrote...

That what you see could fit the theory isn't evidence, its sttill speculation. I can very easily say that the whole series is just a nightmare Shepard is having and it would still fit with everything. Its not evidence.

And no the indoctrination theory dosn't explain anything. It just replaces the existing plotholes and bad writing with its own plotholes and bad writing.

Thats how theories are born. You see and interpret the elements and form a theory on it. There is indeed evidence that there is indoctrinated involved in some way, and some are picking up on it. Sure they could be completely wrong, but they could be right.

And yes Shep having a nightmare could be the right theory as well, its been done before. It could also be wrong. Just as the indoctrination theory could be

[Para Pett]

Thornquist wrote...

duffenass wrote...

The codex to the rescue! Seriously this is the biggest hint so far.
Or it could just be refrencing the security footage you see in ME2 of the Cerberus scientists jumping at things that aren't there...

Now, If Shepherd had been complaining about headaches for the last half part of the game, I would be more aboard.

When I spoke to Vega in the 2nd half of the game, he actually said 'can you here that buzzing noise?'  Which is associated with the beginings of indoctrination.  I'm on my 2nd play through now, and will be intently listening to all things on the normandy.

[Rocktel]

STAR_KILLER423 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That what you see could fit the theory isn't evidence, its sttill speculation. I can very easily say that the whole series is just a nightmare Shepard is having and it would still fit with everything. Its not evidence.

And no the indoctrination theory dosn't explain anything. It just replaces the existing plotholes and bad writing with its own plotholes and bad writing.

Thats how theories are born. You see and interpret the elements and form a theory on it. There is indeed evidence that there is indoctrinated involved in some way, and some are picking up on it. Sure they could be completely wrong, but they could be right.

And yes Shep having a nightmare could be the right theory as well, its been done before. It could also be wrong. Just as the indoctrination theory could be

Again, its speculation, not evidence, evidence is hard indicative data, not interpretation. It is a theory but its just a theory.

[Holoe4]

So many plot-holes, so much evidence pointing towards hallucination/indoctrination theories...

Endings wouldn't really make sense if otherwise.

[STAR_KILLER423]

Rocktel wrote...

STAR_KILLER423 wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

That what you see could fit the theory isn't evidence, its sttill speculation. I can very easily say that the whole series is just a nightmare Shepard is having and it would still fit with everything. Its not evidence.

And no the indoctrination theory dosn't explain anything. It just replaces the existing plotholes and bad writing with its own plotholes and bad writing.

Thats how theories are born. You see and interpret the elements and form a theory on it. There is indeed evidence that there is indoctrinated involved in some way, and some are picking up on it. Sure they could be completely wrong, but they could be right.

And yes Shep having a nightmare could be the right theory as well, its been done before. It could also be wrong. Just as the indoctrination theory could be

Again, its speculation, not evidence, evidence is hard indicative data, not interpretation. It is a theory but its just a theory.

Never said it was more than that. Never once have I said that this is "proof" that Shep is indoctrinated. I shouldn't have used "evidence" in my post.

[MisterNugNug]

Dark Wyn wrote...
I agree.  None of us should try to force our opinins on one another.  We've done awesome about keeping this cause civil, let's continue that trend.
If others see our thoughts and they feel there is merit and they begin to agree, awesome.  If others here begin to see that the indoctrination theory has too many flaws for them and disagree, more power to them.  As long as we keep our heads and respect one another this thread won't crumble.

I can admire and respect how civil things have been; BUT we're talking about something very different.  We're not talking about a finished movie or television show.  We're talking about a game, which might have DLC.  We've got two scenarios:

Indoctrination Theory is right:  Great, then the endings we do have aren't real.  BUT, we STILL don't have an ending to our stories.  Stories that for many of us, have been three games in the making.  We're in limbo right now.  We're supposed to wait and thats it.  No estimated time.  No Announcements.  The endings that might come MIGHT cost extra money, which means the game we payed for came without the planned endings.

The Endings are real:  We all bought finished products.  We all got the ending to our stories.  We just don't have the endings we wanted.  We wanted closure.  We wanted an epic conclusion.  Its not that we wanted Shepard to survive; many of us will readily accept his/her's death as long as it serves a purpose for the story.  

[Dark Wyn]

Now that the game is released in Japan and Bioware has started asking for our thoughts on the ending thus far via Twitter, I truly believe it's only a short matter of time now before they give us something.

[the red boon]

ShaneP wrote...
Oh please, just cut the smug condescention already. I'm not trying to glorify Bioware at all, I am actually making the argument that is is inconcievable for ANY game company to knowingly release a game with an incomplete ending, and that it would make even less sense for them to release one that they *know* is rubbish.

The endings leaked are almost identical to the endings we see in the game. I simply don't buy the argument that they sucked due to time pressure because those leaks indicate that those were always the intended endings, give or take a couple of lines of cut dialogue. They had AMPLE time to change them and chose not too, so don't sit there on your smug throne acting as if I'm unaware of how time pressure works, I've been gaming for more than 15 years.

My theory is simply that Bioware attempted to make an ending that broke the formulaeic mold of "Kill the bad guys. run off into the sunset, and live happily ever after" and simply got it a bit wrong. If anything, the approach of waiting to see what Bioware comes up with makes a lot more sense than going off on wild tangents simply for the sake of wanting to accept anything that avoids the simplest explanation that Bioware simply made a miscalculation.

And hell, if it turns out that Bioware have bested us on this one I'll quite happily eat my words.

I'm wasn't attempting to sound smug and I'm sorry if I came off that way. I honestly don't believe that they had a plan for the end because if they did why wouldn't they just come out and say it? Games go through many stages where they change the storyline multiple times until they're happy with it so I do believe that it was time restraints and for you to say that they wouldn't release a game where the ending is rubbish that's quite a false statement for there are many examples of games that have rush endings such as id's RAGE and they worked on that game for years. I'm not trying to sound superior or trying to imply that you are less then me. I just see very obvious flaws in your logic and I've also been gaming for around 16 years which really doesn't make a difference to our arqument.

[STAR_KILLER423]

Dark Wyn wrote...

Now that the game is released in Japan and Bioware has started asking for our thoughts on the ending thus far via Twitter, I truly believe it's only a short matter of time now before they give us something.

Lets hope so. I have to say, if the indoctrination theory is correct, than it would be the greatest ploy ever. If they truly planned it, then the did what no other company has, fully integrate the fact that YOU are the character. The effectively fooled You into thinking that was it, but thats exactly what indoctrination is about. Can't say I would be thrilled that they held it off the disk to release latter, but I can still respect the risk they took. Of course that is purely my opinion on the matter. 
Of course it could all be wrong as well and they are not going to change anything, but I will be happy with an official statement either way.

[Warhawk7137]

Well, either way, I'm reserving my judgment on BioWare until we have something more concrete.