37 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulrik the Slayer]

No, I'm quite correct. You don't backstab when using talents.

[Maedryc]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

No, I'm quite correct. You don't backstab when using talents.

Who cares? Dealing 90+ damage with a single backstab < Dealing 500/600 damage in a second when you're surrounded by 5/6 enemies.
He's not saying that you can backstab, he's saying that you'll deal more damage with an AoE than a single backstab.
It isn't that hard to grasp, man.

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:47 .

[Rayne Myria Solo]

As has been said a million times...DPS is not the only (nor the best) measure of ability in this game. I'm sure if I ran momentum 100% of the time, and never clicked Flurry, Riposte, Punisher (that would be stupid as that's one of the single best attacks in the game, along with Riposte) and just auto-attacked I'd probably do a few points more damage, but not only would it be boring, it would have no tactical use whatsoever. This kind of thing has been trolled to death "blah blah DPS blah blah DPS" I feel like I started playing WoW at some point when I wasn't looking..*sighs* play how you want to play (if that's "OMGWTFDPSAUCE!!1111" then so be it, if it's not, that's even better, just don't start up a massive thread telling us about it..(again)...*sighs* I dunno if it's the new social forums, or if everything's just going downhill lately..we never had these sorts of arguments over NWN and KotOR...

[LynxAQ]

Anyway yes my original post was kinda mis worded - I ment the DW talents for rogues - the attack type abilities are pretty useless once you got momentum. And to Rayne - I dont care about DPS - what I care about is you given talents that are completely over shadowed by 1 skill that can be kept on 100% of the time and abilities like whirlwind which are situational can only be used 2/3 times max in a fight... seems backwards and not quite right.



Not saying whirlwind has not got a single use - but they are few and far between. Its like saying deadly strike is useful when the sun aligns with the moon and Haley Comit is passing whilst a taxi honks its horn in the street...

[Maedryc]

LynxAQ wrote...

Anyway yes my original post was kinda mis worded - I ment the DW talents for rogues - the attack type abilities are pretty useless once you got momentum. And to Rayne - I dont care about DPS - what I care about is you given talents that are completely over shadowed by 1 skill that can be kept on 100% of the time and abilities like whirlwind which are situational can only be used 2/3 times max in a fight... seems backwards and not quite right.

Not saying whirlwind has not got a single use - but they are few and far between. Its like saying deadly strike is useful when the sun aligns with the moon and Haley Comit is passing whilst a taxi honks its horn in the street...

I don't know, as I said, I found Punisher, Revenge  and Flurry pretty useful against mages (and archers), and I used Dual Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind almost every fight,  but it might just have been the fact that I soloed most areas of the game, so I needed to lock down or hit as many opponents as possible.
I never used Dual Striking ( you can activate it with momentum but it's probably bugged and you actually attack way slower...), I used Cripple sparingly, often to shatter a petrified opponent I couldn't backstab without moving around when I wasn't soloing ( which was not very often, admittely), and I never took Dual Weapon Mastery that's pretty useless for dagger wielding rogues.

[TheMufflon]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

No, I'm quite correct. You don't backstab when using talents.

*Sigh* Maybe you should take your own advice and re-read some posts.

Your stated reason for thinking DW sweep and Whirlwind are useless was that they stop auto-attacking, to which relhart sarcastically replied "You can backstab 6 enemies at once?". Of course, everyone knows you can't backstab six enemies at once, relharts point is clearly that DW sweep and whirlwind are useful because they CAN damage six enemies at once, thus dealing more damage than two backstabs to a single opponent.

[Rayne Myria Solo]

Maedryc wrote...


I don't know, as I said, I found Punisher, Revenge  and Flurry pretty useful against mages (and archers), and I used Dual Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind almost every fight,  but it might just have been the fact that I soloed most areas of the game, so I needed to lock down or hit as many opponents as possible.
I never used Dual Striking ( you can activate it with momentum but it's probably bugged and you actually attack way slower...), I used Cripple sparingly, often to shatter a petrified opponent I couldn't backstab without moving around when I wasn't soloing ( which was not very often, admittely), and I never took Dual Weapon Mastery that's pretty useless for dagger wielding rogues.

You mean Riposte (where you said Revenge?) Yeah, Punisher and Riposte are the single most powerful two abilities in the Rogue Tree IMO. The Irony of this is, I use Mometum situationally, and use all my other talents 95% of the time. The only time I kick on Momentum is to end a fight if I'm the last one standing, or when I've burned down to about 5-10% Stamina, and no longer have other abiities, then I kick it on to up my attack rate and end the fight. Dual Striking is..crappy for a rogue, and is only good if you take it early and don't have anything else. For a DW warrior it would actually be good, but the problem with it for Rogues is it removes your critical-backstabbing, which is NOT what you want. Cripple is good against ranked guys as an opener (generally after Mark of Death and Punisher). To get their stats down, but yeah other than that..it's fairly situational late-game. Riposte makes a good "I need to shatter this frozen/petrified foe right now" move as well. Riposte, and Dirty Fighting were the bread and butter of my early game, once I got Coup De Grace (making anyone paralyzed/stunned/frozen) auto 360 degree backstab) and still even late, makes a huge difference. I have the entire DW tree, using Starfang and Austurian's Might at the moment, at level 19, with 37 dex, 22 cunning, 20 willpower, 20 con, and about 39ish strength, and well..it's nasty...I'm in the dead trenches, tearing through darkspawn like butter. (Thank you Grandmaster Silverite Grandmaster Paralyze, and Grandmaster Flame) Ausurtian's just as a Master Dweomer Rune to help keep mages from tosting me. With Duelist+Keen Defense, and my EQ I hav about 116 attack and 115 defense...it's a rare thing when I get hit.

I do not have much of the actual rogue tree itself (only Dirty Fighting, Combat Movement, Coup De Grace). So really she's more of a swasbucking Zorro-style scrapper than she is a rogue.have the entire DW tree, the entire assisin spec, and the entire Duelist spec except Pinpoint Strike (which is my level 20 talent pick). Skills wise, I have a couple levels of Survival, all the coersion abilities, and the pickpocket skills. I use Lelianna as my archer, and lockpicker/trap handler. Alistair as my main tank, and Wynne as healer, and occasional damage dealer.

[Maedryc]

Rayne Myria Solo wrote...

Maedryc wrote...


I don't know, as I said, I found Punisher, Revenge  and Flurry pretty useful against mages (and archers), and I used Dual Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind almost every fight,  but it might just have been the fact that I soloed most areas of the game, so I needed to lock down or hit as many opponents as possible.
I never used Dual Striking ( you can activate it with momentum but it's probably bugged and you actually attack way slower...), I used Cripple sparingly, often to shatter a petrified opponent I couldn't backstab without moving around when I wasn't soloing ( which was not very often, admittely), and I never took Dual Weapon Mastery that's pretty useless for dagger wielding rogues.

You mean Riposte (where you said Revenge?) Yeah, Punisher and Riposte are the single most powerful two abilities in the Rogue Tree IMO. The Irony of this is, I use Mometum situationally, and use all my other talents 95% of the time. The only time I kick on Momentum is to end a fight if I'm the last one standing, or when I've burned down to about 5-10% Stamina, and no longer have other abiities, then I kick it on to up my attack rate and end the fight. Dual Striking is..crappy for a rogue, and is only good if you take it early and don't have anything else. For a DW warrior it would actually be good, but the problem with it for Rogues is it removes your critical-backstabbing, which is NOT what you want. Cripple is good against ranked guys as an opener (generally after Mark of Death and Punisher). To get their stats down, but yeah other than that..it's fairly situational late-game. Riposte makes a good "I need to shatter this frozen/petrified foe right now" move as well. Riposte, and Dirty Fighting were the bread and butter of my early game, once I got Coup De Grace (making anyone paralyzed/stunned/frozen) auto 360 degree backstab) and still even late, makes a huge difference. I have the entire DW tree, using Starfang and Austurian's Might at the moment, at level 19, with 37 dex, 22 cunning, 20 willpower, 20 con, and about 39ish strength, and well..it's nasty...I'm in the dead trenches, tearing through darkspawn like butter. (Thank you Grandmaster Silverite Grandmaster Paralyze, and Grandmaster Flame) Ausurtian's just as a Master Dweomer Rune to help keep mages from tosting me. With Duelist+Keen Defense, and my EQ I hav about 116 attack and 115 defense...it's a rare thing when I get hit.

I do not have much of the actual rogue tree itself (only Dirty Fighting, Combat Movement, Coup De Grace). So really she's more of a swasbucking Zorro-style scrapper than she is a rogue.have the entire DW tree, the entire assisin spec, and the entire Duelist spec except Pinpoint Strike (which is my level 20 talent pick). Skills wise, I have a couple levels of Survival, all the coersion abilities, and the pickpocket skills. I use Lelianna as my archer, and lockpicker/trap handler. Alistair as my main tank, and Wynne as healer, and occasional damage dealer.

Yeah, I meant Riposte. Damn WoW.
Anyway, as I said, I used to solo a lot, as a dex focused guy. And I'm the swashbucklerish type as well ( being Duelist/Assassin). I use momentum pretty much as you do: I pop out of the shadows, unleash as much burst  as I can on  the single most dangerous opponent if there's one,  use my AoE attacks as soon as I'm surrounded and when I'm out of stamina I activate Momentum.
Since I'm dex focused (  102 dex at level 22 ) being stunned is a pain in the ass when I'm soloing. In this regard, I found Riposte and Dirty Fighting quite useful: when a melee combatant tries to Shield Pummel me, I stun him with Riposte, stopping him. If a second opponent uses Shield Pummel, I use Dirty Fighting. Combat Stealth helps when you're out of stuns
Frankly, I found Riposte a life saver in the right situation.

My real beef with the DW abilities is that their CDs are way too long, and I usually end the fight before I can use any given ability more than once...

Modifié par Maedryc, 28 novembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[LtlMac]

LynxAQ wrote...

LtlMac wrote...

Are you serious?! I think rogue abilities are awsome. In fact this time around, My 'rogue' is nothing more than DW warrior the way I have him specc'ed.

The ability to backstab any paralyzed/immobile opponent+Momentum+Starfang and Topsider = PWNED ORANGE MOB!!

The ability to backstab is where the rogue shines...and boy does he/she shine if you have them specc'd right

Did you even read my post? Bar the armour/defense reducing abilities, the rogue special attacks are useless once you have Momentum. Thats what I am saying. Using things like whirlwind or flurry is just a waste of dps and a waste of time. Which makes these skills pointless.

Duel weapons are not "rogue abilities" they are "Duel weapon abilities".  The rogue Abilities...sneak, pick locks, dirty fighting, backstab, guarenteed backstab.....all incredibly useful.  Then you have the rogue specializations which rox. 

[telephasic]

Personally, I've found Whirlwind to be a useless talent for rogues. The base damage you deal when not backstabbing just isn't high enough. Even with the Rose's Thorn in my main hand, I'm lucky if I take 1/4th of the health off a group of white enemies surrounding me. For a DW warrior with longswords, it would probably be a great investment though.

[Silensfurtim]

i only use Punisher, Flurry for enemy spell casters. Whirlwind is fun in end game Grunt Killing lol. When like 9-10 Grunts surround me I activate Whirlwind.



There's a Whirlwind achievement btw.

[Kileyan]

LynxAQ wrote...

Activate Momentum with Duel (From Duelist talents) and you are off. Using any rogue attacks is a waste of time and pointless as they lower your DPS by LOADS.

Only abilities I use are the abilities that reduce defense/mark of death and only on boss fights at the start.

Feels like all these abilities have been put in the game and they are completely pointless and useless to the point I dont even have them on my action bar.

I really feel the sustained abilities need to be reworked. Perhaps make them all drain your mana/stamina slowly or give them a duration (aka change them to temp buffs).

You are pretty much correct. The activated skills should have been balanced around flanking, critical and backstabs being possible. It was a total waste to put them in, with the caveat that they can't critical or backstab.

The only ones I ever use are stuns to stop casting and very very rarely that dual wield arc aoe if 3 critters are near dead and in front of me. Even then its just for looks, i could as easily drop a bomb of which I have tons or just kill them one at a time, which only takes a 2 more seconds.

Modifié par Kileyan, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[metatrans]

i agree with the OP. my rogue hardly used any activated abilities because most were a waste of time. however DWS and WW were both excellent when surrounded by a pack of mobs that had just been Taunted by a tank. AoE damage is always good when available. how fortunate that those attacks are in the same line as Momentum anyway so you basically get them for free.



but just going through the whole talent set its pretty easy to pick out some truly useless abilities.



here's my take on the activated abilities. keep in mind this is all strictly from the perspective of a dual daggers backstab rogue focused on Cunning. alot of these talents are just fine or downright awesome for different types of rogues or for a DW warrior.



Dirty Fighting - actually good. interrupts enemies, prevents them from beating on a squishy, and combos well with Coup De Grace.



Feign Death - pointless. Combat Stealth makes this irrelevant.



Below the Belt - almost pointless. supposed to help an archer kite with its slow effect. a backstab rogue doesn't care about this at all. its a large DPS reduction and waste of stamina for a backstabber.



Deadly Strike - atrocious and wasteful. shame you have to get it to get Lethality. terrible on every build of rogue.



Dual Weapon Striking Mode - pointless waste. the whole class is based on backstabs+crits. this isn't even good for DW warriors either actually. just terrible.



Riposte - pretty meh. its like a Dirty Fighting that costs more stamina but does some damage. but the damage it does is almost totally equivalent to what you'd get from backstabbing anyway. at best this keeps you neutral for DPS while providing a nice stun. at worst this is a stamina waster.



Cripple - pointless waste. its a dps reduction if you could have been backstabbing instead. the attack/defense/movement debuffs are meaningless for the most part.



Punisher - does noticeably less damage than 4 backstabs and takes about the same amount of time. the knockdown at the end is cool but most things are just plain dead after 4 backstabs so its pointless.



Dual Weapon Sweep - dramatically better for a Full Size weapon user than a dagger weapon user. still, its pretty good under the right circumstances.



Flurry - pointless waste of stamina. its a reasonable DPS improvement for full size users but is probably a DPS reduction for a dagger backstabber.



Momentum - omgwtfbbq sick. this is all you need. makes everything else obsolete.



Whirlwind - this is just DWS #2. slightly bigger. same comments apply.