1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Costantino]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

But the ending ruins the replay value for a lot of people. Yes the Journey matters but so does a destination in a game where you choose what you do.

Modifié par Lord Costantino, 15 mars 2012 - 04:23 .

[Zalbik]

So any update on a possible fix to the face imports from ME2?

[Computim]

NewUszi wrote...

You said:
"Would you say that in this age of low priced tidbits, it is fair for us to ask for changes to the game?"

To which I say, yes it is fair.  And I think most reasonable people who use "entitled" to slander the BSN community would agree as well ---- not all, mind you.

The problem is that your language is not the language that is always used.  There are many people who seem to think that there is a moral imperative that Bioware implement the changes made by the player base in the form of demands.

Those people are have a mistaken sense of being "entitled" to changes.

Here's an entitlement test for everyone: 

Are the following two statements mutually exclusive?
1.  Most players would like the ending changed.  
2.  Bioware does not need to change the ending.

I have no problem with Bioware telling me no.. If I don't like their product I just don't buy it in the future, it's the same as everything else in life, if my laundry detergent doesn't deliver what I expected and my complaint to the company doesn't recitify it to my satisfaction I get a new laundry detergent... or bulk up, train with Chuck Norris, and then flex my new-found muscles whenever someone approaches so they don't smell my dirty clothes

I'm pretty sure Bioware understands both sides of the equation there.

[miracleofsound]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

Just wanted to say thank you for coming on here Stan, your acknowledgements and replies are bound to cheer a lot of people up a little

I've met the Bioware people this year at Gamescom and the one thing I noticed over all else was how much you guys appreciate and interact with your fans.

[dcal31]

Without trying to open a whole new can of worms, do any of you guys have any thoughts on the Retake Mass Effect Child's Play Charity Drive that been set up? I imagine you've already saw it, consider how it's been all over the forums, but linked just in case. My own personal opinion is that, even in the worst case, a bunch of money (+$40,000 at the moment) goes to a good cause and is alot more constructive that most other forms of protest. Any thoughts?

[ViperAlvein]

NewUszi wrote...

Palidane wrote...

@Stanley Woo

Can I ask you something? Not in an accusatory way, just generally. A lot of news sites and reporters are calling Retake Mass Effect "entitled" for wanting a better ending, demanding changes to a game we paid for but did not produce. I'd say ten years ago, this would be perfectly valid. The only changes to a game were in $50 dollar expansion packs, which was all new content, not so much fixes for old stuff.

But times have changed. In the modern era of gaming, DLC is the latest trend. Like it or not, 2-10 dollar purchases are becoming a lot more common, for everything from weapons to cosmetics to companion characters. Would you say that in this age of low priced tidbits, it is fair for us to ask for changes to the game? If developers are willing to work on small scale DLC, then is it fair for us to ask for changes to a game, instead of a new weapon pack, for instance?

Here's the disconnect I see.  

You said:
"Would you say that in this age of low priced tidbits, it is fair for us to ask for changes to the game?"

To which I say, yes it is fair.  And I think most reasonable people who use "entitled" to slander the BSN community would agree as well ---- not all, mind you.

The problem is that your language is not the language that is always used.  There are many people who seem to think that there is a moral imperative that Bioware implement the changes made by the player base in the form of demands.

Those people are have a mistaken sense of being "entitled" to changes.

Here's an entitlement test for everyone: 

Are the following two statements mutually exclusive?
1.  Most players would like the ending changed.  
2.  Bioware does not need to change the ending.

Yep. Simply put, I'd love the ending to be expanded on and have extra options, but no, they don't have to change it... doesn't change the fact i'd be bitterly dissapointed if they didn't 

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

Have you finished the game?

[Nachtritter76]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

Off-topic, but Romeo could really have gone on a vengeance-fueled rampage against the Capulet instead of moping around like some teenage emo kid. That would have allowed plenty of time for Juliet to wake the eff up, and would have paved the way to a happy, blood-soaked ending of violence and romance.

Heck, I'd pay Shakespeare for that DLC.

[rexil]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

The game is really awesome and I had lots of fun playing it. It's just the last part that dind't match with all the rest.
It really worth playing it imo but it could/can be better.

[Tazzmission]

Lord Costantino wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

But the ending ruins it the replay value for a lot of people. Yes the Journey matters but so does a destination in a game where you choose what you do.

um no it doesnt. im on my 4th play right now

the whole ending fiasco isnt the devs fault its yours because  in your own words you say to you and you alone 10 minutes of a cuscene shot the franchise dead.

now im not saying this to be a douche but i just dont understand how anyone could let 10 minutes affect a full game and im sorry but you guys are becoming worse than the star trek groups regarding whats lore and whatisnt, what a retcon is and what isnt

Modifié par Tazzmission, 15 mars 2012 - 04:25 .

[slimgrin]

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

[Ronnocloki]

The problem that many people have with the ending isn't simply the tone it sets but the fact that there are several plot holes in the ending and that there isn't a reflection of the players choice, one of the major aspects of the Mass Effect franchise.

[Nachtritter76]

Zalbik wrote...

So any update on a possible fix to the face imports from ME2?

Or fixing the assets so that peeps can reach 8000 Total Military Strength in single-player, for that matter.

[InvincibleHero]

jeweledleah wrote...


I feel like I have to reiterate a point I've made before.  when I'm buying a piece of art that was created first and marketed later - yeah, I'm buying it becasue it appealed to me as is and obviously I woudln't be changing it.  but Mass Effect 3 is closer to comissioned art.  and while the customer themselves don't make changes - they DO provide feedback to the artist, that artist then encorporates into their work.  Mass Effect is a labor of love.  between developers AND the fans.  its not art for the sake of art.  so the rules of art for the sake of art (a concept btw, that is very VERY young, Michelangelo and Da Vinci and Goya and David etc etc - they all worked on comission, on order, creating what customers - patrons payed them to create) do not apply to ME.  not since developr's continued admission of listening and encorporating feedback, not since they create this art for commercial purposes, to make profit. 

so what makes this different from asking for Tali and Garrus be made romances, asking for more squadmate interaction, asking for changes to planet scanning, or combat, asking for inclusion of s/s romances, asking for graphical and animation updates?  or how about pointing out inconsistencies with lore, prior stories, etc - in a tie in book, to the point where it gets recalled to be corrected and rewritten?

interesting example of a book, incidentaly.  "Metro 2033"  the author actualy completely rewrote the ending and changed many parts of the story entirely due to fan feedback.  and it made for a better story (IMO), or at least one more popular with the fans.  it didn't ruin his credibility as a writer, on the contrary.  it indeared him to his fanbase, built up good will and made them more likely to buy his books in a future.  and that's the whole point of commercial art - which is what video games are.  commercial art.  to please the consumer.  ME is already changeabale.  you can see througout the entire trology how it was affected and shaped by fan feedback.  this is NOTHING new.  in fact - its part of the reason for bioware's fanbase - the fact that they listen and encorporate.

and I'm not seeing exactly how optional happy ending = COD clone sellout.  not that the lack of happier option is the biggest problem with ME3's ending, not even close.  lack of coherency, lore contradictions, direct contradiction to pre release developer statements (wildly divergent and different endings that will be directly and visibly affected by choices from all 3 games), plot holes, etc.

Sorry but it is not ME was created with no direct input or say from you. It sits on a shelf and you can buy it or not.

It's great they gave fans some things they wanted like the romances you mentioned. Gameplay eleemnts are fair game because feedback on things the majority finds bad and exact proven reasons why are a no-brainer to fix or remove/replace. That is a fair request changing an ending IMO is not. They have to make the story they want as the creator. Liking the story or not is subjective so demanding cahnges from those that created it is presumptuous. It is great when they incorporate fans into the equation but we should not rage when they choose to do what they want. We have to accept the product is how they want it to be period. People expect too much.

Interesting you wanted to separate ME from novels and movies  first.  I would respond does it cost him , 25, 50 or perhaps 75 or 100 million to write his novel? Not a chance it is little risk to him. Fine if he is willing to cater to demands but it could catch up to him. Say in the future fans demand a change to a new novel and he holds the line they will say well you did it before and maybe his next novel does poorly due to the scorned fans.

Last part wasn't about your argument just an add-on.  People only want things they agree with was my basic idea yet they deride changes BW wants to make as if theirs matter more.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 15 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Esker02]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

That might be true in general, but if the ending sufficiently trivializes the events of the prior content, I can guarantee people stop showing up. Let's say at the end of Othello, aliens land and abduct Othello, Iago, and Desdemona, then eject them all into space on their way back to Mars. End play. Sort of makes all of the intrigue before it pointless.

Worse yet, let's imagine audience members were told that they would be deciding the outcome of today's production, and then at the end, the ... perhaps I'm making my analogy too obvious now..

[CatalystJones]

Mr Woo,

   Take this how you will. With ME and ME2 I played at least a full 6 runs of each. The first three runs came one after the other. Those were without doubt the best gaming experiences I have ever had. No other game has ever drawn me in enough to play more than twice.
   As such a huge fan of the series I made sure to get ME3 on release day. The game itself was amazing in nearly every way...until the end. Of the three games this is the only one that I have no desire to replay. The only thing that could change that is if a new ending is coming our way. So I ask you based on my thoughts do I have any reason to keep these 3 games installed?

[Annaleah]

Lord Costantino wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

But the ending ruins it the replay value for a lot of people. Yes the Journey matters but so does a destination in a game where you choose what you do.

I envy you, Stanley, I really do. I wish I could go back and replay the game. Hell, I WANT to go back and replay the game so badly but since the ending it's been like a wall has been placed in front me preventing me from enjoying the game. I may seem like an over-emotinal person who is way to attatched to something that can basically be reduced to 1's and 0's but the game hurt me on a deep emotional level. Maybe some day I will be able to get over it but it doesn't look like any time soon.

[Palidane]

Well here's what it really boils down to: Do you think the endings were so bad Bioware sold you a broken product? If so, should it be Bioware's obligation to fix the broken product? Or should you just return it to Gamestop?

And is it ethical for Bioware to make a "the Truth" DLC, but then charge you extra for fixing their broken product?

[Maugrim]

dcal31 wrote...

Without trying to open a whole new can of worms, do any of you guys have any thoughts on the Retake Mass Effect Child's Play Charity Drive that been set up? I imagine you've already saw it, consider how it's been all over the forums, but linked just in case. My own personal opinion is that, even in the worst case, a bunch of money (+$40,000 at the moment) goes to a good cause and is alot more constructive that most other forms of protest. Any thoughts?

Manveerheir seemed to appreciate our good deeds, I'm sure some of the others do as well!

[KingDan97]

The Smitchens wrote...

G3rman wrote...

They can act like they care, but it doesn't mean they will do anything about it.

Just because BW takes feedback doesn't mean they apply it.

I don't think that's fair to say.  How many things have they changed, included, and removed from the games at the discretion of the fans?  It's not like in the 80s and 90s before the internet when developers had to make decisions on their own.  The reason Bioware has an ME forum is to get a direct link to the fans as to what they want out of a game.  Ultimately that tells them what the bulk of people want and ultimately what group will give them the most money.

Of course they care.  We're their paying customers.  Without us they don't eat.

I'd say we've got direct proof that Bioware as a company listens to us as they've gone through games their DLC delivery has constantly improved, Mass Effect was dreadful, too far after the first game, too short. Dragon Age: Origins was too cheap, still too short and it all felt really broken off from the main game. Mass Effect 2 got a lot of the pacing, length and brought the number to a reasonable amount for actually relevant pieces(weapon/armor/appearance packs notwithstanding). Dragon Age 2 actually notably improved upon problems in the main game, brought back all the main VA's to the DLC and had more map variety than the main game itself did. The first ME3 DLC was great, although it loses points for being developed in tandem to the game(not that I had an issue with that, but it means the VA's were readily available).

[Nachtritter76]

slimgrin wrote...

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

I'm sorry, but you can't force people to accept your views. You may not want them to, but some people (hint: a lot) would like them to ADD TO/CHANGE them.

[Lord Costantino]

Tazzmission wrote...

Lord Costantino wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

But the ending ruins it the replay value for a lot of people. Yes the Journey matters but so does a destination in a game where you choose what you do.

um no it doesnt. im on my 4th play right now

the whole ending fiasco isnt the devs fault its yours because  in your own words you say to you and you alone 10 minutes of a cuscene shot the franchise dead.

now im not saying this to be a douche but i just dont understand how anyone could let 10 minutes affect a full game and im sorry but you guys are becoming worse than the star trek groups regarding whats lore and whatisnt, what a retcon is and what isnt

Then your not part of the group that it doesn't ruin it for. I am happy you like the ending, it should be one of the few that can be done. The ending has ssssoooooo many plot holes and goes against Mass Effects principle of tolerance because of the end. Like I said good you like it but it's not their best work. I loved Bioware I only played Bioware games but after this idk I think I am going to cancle my swtor scrip and move on to a different game company. I hope they really fix this.

[LegendaryBlade]

slimgrin wrote...

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

Guys, they're goiong to change the ending. I can't wait for them to. It's coming, we can wait.

[rexil]

slimgrin wrote...

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

There's no need to change it, really, but they can add to it.

[TamiBx]

Zalbik wrote...

So any update on a possible fix to the face imports from ME2?

I'm interested in this too. I did managed to fix my FemShep's face but it wasn't exactly the same.