1109 réponses à ce sujet

[Tazzmission]

Ronnocloki wrote...

The problem that many people have with the ending isn't simply the tone it sets but the fact that there are several plot holes in the ending and that there isn't a reflection of the players choice, one of the major aspects of the Mass Effect franchise.

things will always have plotholes and thats something people need to get over and understand

im a huge fan of green lantern and i can rant on and on forever on so many plotholes itll make the me3 endings look small in size.


the thing is i dont chose to sit and analize it all day and go hey geoff johns you owe me an answer since you write the series


despite the plotholes im still a fan and still read the books

same with mass effect i love the trilogy of games even if the 3rd games ending wasnt what i expected but its not gona make me go and say welp im no longer a fan now.

if people think everything is going to be top notch perfect your setting yourselves up for a dissapointment

Modifié par Tazzmission, 15 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[London]

I just want a happy ending. To ask you to play a role for 150 hours, maybe fall in love, and then in 5 minutes do what they did... It's not compelling. It's mean.

[Travie]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

Didn't he mean if you know how BAD the endings are, why bother playing the game at all?

Thats how I read it anyway, and I agree.

If you know all your hard work is going to end up not mattering, or coming to an unsatisfying conclusion then it really is a de-motivating factor when looking at future playthroughs.

[NewUszi]

Computim wrote...

I have no problem with Bioware telling
me no.. If I don't like their product I just don't buy it in the future,
it's the same as everything else in life, if my laundry detergent
doesn't deliver what I expected and my complaint to the company doesn't
recitify it to my satisfaction I get a new laundry detergent... or bulk
up, train with Chuck Norris, and then flex my new-found muscles whenever
someone approaches so they don't smell my dirty clothes

Right, so you don't have a sense of entitlement.  And if anyone tells you that you do, you can sleep easy knowing that they're mistaken.

And if they persist in trying to tell you that you are entitled, you can sleep even easier knowing how unreasonable they are.

Computim wrote...
I'm pretty sure Bioware understands both sides of the equation there.

Much better than us, since they're the ones actually deciding which DLC gets made and why.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

ViperAlvein wrote...


Yep. Simply put, I'd love the ending to be expanded on and have extra options, but no, they don't have to change it... doesn't change the fact i'd be bitterly dissapointed if they didn't 

Agree!

[baronkohinar]

Two things I would say to clarify:

1. We as fans are NOT entitled to RECEIVE a new ending, however as paying customers we ARE entitled to ASK for a new ending if we're dissatisfied with the current one. BioWare as the game's creator is similarly entitled to tell us 'no' if they choose, just as we're entitled not to do business with them in the future if we don't like the way they handle this. Hopefully that distinction is clear.

2. So far as the poll goes, I agree, it's not scientific by any stretch of the imagination - at least as a percentage representative of the views of those playing Mass Effect 3. It does, however, effectively represent over 40,000 complaints by customers dissatisfied with the product and should be viewed as such rather than disregarding it outright.

Modifié par baronkohinar, 15 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Lord Costantino]

rexil wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

There's no need to change it, really, but they can add to it.

^this
It wouldn't need a radical change, just an addition. The theory people have going now can be added to what happens.

[Aesieru]

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

Well the endings for the things they replay usually don't stir up negative emotions that make you want to yell.

[bleachorange]

kbct wrote...

Hopefully it's 24 hours. Farbautisonn was probably teasing too much. He normally writes reasoned posts though.

True enough. He is usually very meticulous with his wording. I wonder what he said. Oh well, it disappeared into the mists of time...:innocent:

[durasteel]

GME_ThorianCreeper wrote...

Ozai75 wrote...

Guys cut out posting spoilers please. Even vague ones

There are so many "vague" spoilers on this forum that I have practically put the ending together like a puzzle.  I seriously might as well go watch it on youtube or something.

You really might as well. It doesn't actually spoil the story of the game, because it really doesn't relate to it. If you watch the end first, you might expect the game to actually lead up to it in some logical way, but... ha ha ha.

[devSin]

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm trying my hardest to avoid spoilers, because I've yet to have a chance to play through ME3. And, being up on the DA floor, there are large swathes of content that remain blissfully unspoiled for me, with the exception of the endings and a few bits and pieces here and there.

It is so depressing. Like, I get that they wanted it to bleak, but come on.

After a while you'll start thinking 'now they're just making me wallow in it'.

But the writing is surprisingly good. Earth made it seem like the game was going to bomb from start to finish (Arrival was so shockingly bad, I feared the worst), but I was routinely surprised at how wonderfully the new(ish) writers managed to recapture and extend the characters.

It has some cinematic merit as well. I think you'll enjoy, but I know it'll be with a critical eye (I expect DA3 to be better because of it).

[Nachtritter76]

KingDan97 wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

G3rman wrote...

They can act like they care, but it doesn't mean they will do anything about it.

Just because BW takes feedback doesn't mean they apply it.

I don't think that's fair to say.  How many things have they changed, included, and removed from the games at the discretion of the fans?  It's not like in the 80s and 90s before the internet when developers had to make decisions on their own.  The reason Bioware has an ME forum is to get a direct link to the fans as to what they want out of a game.  Ultimately that tells them what the bulk of people want and ultimately what group will give them the most money.

Of course they care.  We're their paying customers.  Without us they don't eat.

I'd say we've got direct proof that Bioware as a company listens to us as they've gone through games their DLC delivery has constantly improved, Mass Effect was dreadful, too far after the first game, too short. Dragon Age: Origins was too cheap, still too short and it all felt really broken off from the main game. Mass Effect 2 got a lot of the pacing, length and brought the number to a reasonable amount for actually relevant pieces(weapon/armor/appearance packs notwithstanding). Dragon Age 2 actually notably improved upon problems in the main game, brought back all the main VA's to the DLC and had more map variety than the main game itself did. The first ME3 DLC was great, although it loses points for being developed in tandem to the game(not that I had an issue with that, but it means the VA's were readily available).

... DLC ...

Ok, so DA2 was abysmal in comparison to DA:O (IMHO) --- that being said, I still enjoyed it in a cheesy spin-off kind of way (feel free to hate). I did like the DLC "Mark of the Assassin" however, but hated how Tallis wasn't available once Hawke went back to regular business. Unless she does come back in later acts and I should really have finished the game I started.

[slimgrin]

Lord Costantino wrote...

rexil wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Guys, they aren't going to change the ending. I wouldn't want them to. It's done, and we move on.

There's no need to change it, really, but they can add to it.

^this
It wouldn't need a radical change, just an addition. The theory people have going now can be added to what happens.

Add to it with paid DLC? How do think that will go over?

[NewUszi]

makenzieshepard wrote...

dcal31 wrote...

Without trying to open a whole new can of worms, do any of you guys have any thoughts on the Retake Mass Effect Child's Play Charity Drive that been set up? I imagine you've already saw it, consider how it's been all over the forums, but linked just in case. My own personal opinion is that, even in the worst case, a bunch of money (+$40,000 at the moment) goes to a good cause and is alot more constructive that most other forms of protest. Any thoughts?

Manveerheir seemed to appreciate our good deeds, I'm sure some of the others do as well!

It's only the single coolest thing our community has done.  I hope we keep the donations flowing.  We've managed to raise nearly $1,000/hr on average since it started, though it picks up and slows down.  I don't think we'll hit 48,000 by 2:08AM tonight though

I've been watching to see if any mention of it.  I'd be really interested in what people had to say about it.

[Lord Costantino]

Tazzmission wrote...

Ronnocloki wrote...

The problem that many people have with the ending isn't simply the tone it sets but the fact that there are several plot holes in the ending and that there isn't a reflection of the players choice, one of the major aspects of the Mass Effect franchise.

things will always have plotholes and thats something people need to get over and understand

im a huge fan of green lantern and i can rant on and on forever on so many plotholes itll make the me3 endings look small in size.


the thing is i dont chose to sit and analize it all day and go hey geoff johns you owe me an answer since you write the series


despite the plotholes im still a fan and still read the books

same with mass effect i love the trilogy of games even if the 3rd games ending wasnt what i expected but its not gona make me go and say welp im no longer a fan now.

if people think everything is going to be top notch perfect your setting yourselves up for a dissapointment

If you are talking about the movie of the Green Lantern, OFCOARSE its going to have plot holes. Comics and books made into movies always do. The plotholes at the end of ME3 were ridiculous and like I said the endings so called "choice" goes against the principle that Mass Effect was building. Which was Tolerance of other races and synthetics. The ending discreded that completely.

[John Epler]

PiEman wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Nathos wrote...

John and Stanley

How about you spend some time to chat on the area of the forum that spoilers are allowed?

We have coffe and donuts!

I'm trying my hardest to avoid spoilers, because I've yet to have a chance to play through ME3. And, being up on the DA floor, there are large swathes of content that remain blissfully unspoiled for me, with the exception of the endings and a few bits and pieces here and there.

Thus why I can recognize spoilers a mile away.

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because, to me (and I know someone's going to call me out on this - so let's just avoid that and say that, yes, I recognize this is, to a degree, echoing an earlier blog post) it really is about the journey. I know where I'm going to end up, but it's the getting there that I'm looking forward to. ME1 was the first BioWare game that came out after I started working here (in fact, my first day was the ME1 launch party - good times). I was fortunate enough to get to work on ME2 (was still QA at this point), and even got to dabble in Cinematic Design. When the third game was in development, I'd become something of a permanent fixture on the Dragon Age franchise, and so I'm coming into it as a huge fan of the first game (and a huge fan of the second, although working on it did mean I didn't spend nearly as much time with it as a consumer as I might otherwise have done).

So whether or not I know the endings, I'm more concerned about what happens up to that point. And that's why I'll play through ME3, despite having the endings spoiled - I want to know what happens in the leadup.

[Esker02]

slimgrin wrote...

Add to it with paid DLC? How do think that will go over?

Some people would complain about BioWare "double-dipping" by selling an ending or what have you, but at the end of the day, we asked for it. We downright fought for it to be made. Just how legitimate would any of those complaints be?

[Tazzmission]

Lord Costantino wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Ronnocloki wrote...

The problem that many people have with the ending isn't simply the tone it sets but the fact that there are several plot holes in the ending and that there isn't a reflection of the players choice, one of the major aspects of the Mass Effect franchise.

things will always have plotholes and thats something people need to get over and understand

im a huge fan of green lantern and i can rant on and on forever on so many plotholes itll make the me3 endings look small in size.


the thing is i dont chose to sit and analize it all day and go hey geoff johns you owe me an answer since you write the series


despite the plotholes im still a fan and still read the books

same with mass effect i love the trilogy of games even if the 3rd games ending wasnt what i expected but its not gona make me go and say welp im no longer a fan now.

if people think everything is going to be top notch perfect your setting yourselves up for a dissapointment

If you are talking about the movie of the Green Lantern, OFCOARSE its going to have plot holes. Comics and books made into movies always do. The plotholes at the end of ME3 were ridiculous and like I said the endings so called "choice" goes against the principle that Mass Effect was building. Which was Tolerance of other races and synthetics. The ending discreded that completely.

no im talking the comics within the last 3 years

i can argue so many things its scary beyond belief

ps. the gl movie sucked sadly and i even wrote a script after i came home from the midnight release

[Stanley Woo]

Travie wrote...

Didn't he mean if you know how BAD the endings are, why bother playing the game at all?

Thats how I read it anyway, and I agree.

If you know all your hard work is going to end up not mattering, or coming to an unsatisfying conclusion then it really is a de-motivating factor when looking at future playthroughs.

Not mattering to who, though. Unsatisfying to who? Just because a jillion people hated the ending doesn't necessarily mean that I will as well, and that's enough to let me enjoy the game and judge it for myself. YMMV, of course, since I'm an optimist and I'm generally willing to give things a fair shot, even if they are critically panned or universally disliked among my peer group.

But i like JAG, NCIS and My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. i like Love Hina, Azumanga Daioh, and Full Metal Alchemist. I like canned spiced eel, headcheese, KD, and mock chicken loaf. I like Notorious MSG, Steel Panther, Rammstein and Enya. Why would I pass up the chance to experience it for myself, even if I might end up disliking it?

[Ozai75]

@stanleywoo because all of those things you mentioned (Shakespeare in particular) have a definable and conclusive ending to them. That is part of the overall narrative. You cannot parse an ending away from a story and say "play this game because this part is really awesome." and ignore an ending without falling action or closure.

[jeweledleah]

InvincibleHero wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...


I feel like I have to reiterate a point I've made before.  when I'm buying a piece of art that was created first and marketed later - yeah, I'm buying it becasue it appealed to me as is and obviously I woudln't be changing it.  but Mass Effect 3 is closer to comissioned art.  and while the customer themselves don't make changes - they DO provide feedback to the artist, that artist then encorporates into their work.  Mass Effect is a labor of love.  between developers AND the fans.  its not art for the sake of art.  so the rules of art for the sake of art (a concept btw, that is very VERY young, Michelangelo and Da Vinci and Goya and David etc etc - they all worked on comission, on order, creating what customers - patrons payed them to create) do not apply to ME.  not since developr's continued admission of listening and encorporating feedback, not since they create this art for commercial purposes, to make profit. 

so what makes this different from asking for Tali and Garrus be made romances, asking for more squadmate interaction, asking for changes to planet scanning, or combat, asking for inclusion of s/s romances, asking for graphical and animation updates?  or how about pointing out inconsistencies with lore, prior stories, etc - in a tie in book, to the point where it gets recalled to be corrected and rewritten?

interesting example of a book, incidentaly.  "Metro 2033"  the author actualy completely rewrote the ending and changed many parts of the story entirely due to fan feedback.  and it made for a better story (IMO), or at least one more popular with the fans.  it didn't ruin his credibility as a writer, on the contrary.  it indeared him to his fanbase, built up good will and made them more likely to buy his books in a future.  and that's the whole point of commercial art - which is what video games are.  commercial art.  to please the consumer.  ME is already changeabale.  you can see througout the entire trology how it was affected and shaped by fan feedback.  this is NOTHING new.  in fact - its part of the reason for bioware's fanbase - the fact that they listen and encorporate.

and I'm not seeing exactly how optional happy ending = COD clone sellout.  not that the lack of happier option is the biggest problem with ME3's ending, not even close.  lack of coherency, lore contradictions, direct contradiction to pre release developer statements (wildly divergent and different endings that will be directly and visibly affected by choices from all 3 games), plot holes, etc.

Sorry but it is not ME was created with no direct input or say from you. It sits on a shelf and you can buy it or not.

It's great they gave fans some things they wanted like the romances you mentioned. Gameplay eleemnts are fair game because feedback on things the majority finds bad and exact proven reasons why are a no-brainer to fix or remove/replace. That is a fair request changing an ending IMO is not. They have to make the story they want as the creator. Liking the story or not is subjective so demanding cahnges from those that created it is presumptuous. It is great when they incorporate fans into the equation but we should not rage when they choose to do what they want. We have to accept the product is how they want it to be period. People expect too much.

Interesting you wanted to separate ME from novels and movies  first.  I would respond does it cost him , 25, 50 or perhaps 75 or 100 million to write his novel? Not a chance it is little risk to him. Fine if he is willing to cater to demands but it could catch up to him. Say in the future fans demand a change to a new novel and he holds the line they will say well you did it before and maybe his next novel does poorly due to the scorned fans.

Last part wasn't about your argument just an add-on.  People only want things they agree with was my basic idea yet they deride changes BW wants to make as if theirs matter more.

do you remember when they said after original script leaked that tehy may make changes to the story based on fan feedback?  becasue I do.  and with that one statement, your argument becomes invalid.  and it is precicely becasue it costs bioware millions to create these games, feedback from the fans is more important for them then for a book writer even.  becasue they stand to lose more upfront then say - novelist.

as for accepting the product?  romices have been made and broken. as consumers, we bring it up to the produsors.  and how they respond directly affects whether we buy their products in a future.  its simple really.  video games are not a necessity.  they are a luxury.  and we can pick and chose our luxuries, and we can stop patronizing developers that no longer produce enjoyable entertainment. 

maybe I see it differently from you becasue I actualy work in a creative field for a living.  and you bet your patootie I, at a minimum familiarize myself with trends listen to feedback and incorporate at least some of it into my work.  becasue ultimately?  I'm doing this for profit. right now I freelance so I have more creative freedom.  but when I was working for a large company?  customer always comes first.  even if they just come into a showroom to pick and chose from already created samples, what they will buy, rather then send in their guidlines first and then pick from results after.

and I concider changing an ending to be a fair request.  especialy if you read the detailed write ups (or watch the videos)  as to why.  just as it was a fair request to change the ending to Fallout 3.  or Metro 2033.  or Mass Effect Deception.

Bioware can still say no.  its their perrogative.  and we as consumers can say - ok then, then we'll take our business elswhere.  its our perrogative. 

[bleachorange]

PiEman wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Nathos wrote...

John and Stanley

How about you spend some time to chat on the area of the forum that spoilers are allowed?

We have coffe and donuts!

I'm trying my hardest to avoid spoilers, because I've yet to have a chance to play through ME3. And, being up on the DA floor, there are large swathes of content that remain blissfully unspoiled for me, with the exception of the endings and a few bits and pieces here and there.

Thus why I can recognize spoilers a mile away.

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

The God Emperor of Dune has a whole philosophical bent on this if you are interested. I recommend the buy.

[Travie]

Esker02 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Add to it with paid DLC? How do think that will go over?

Some people would complain about BioWare "double-dipping" by selling an ending or what have you, but at the end of the day, we asked for it. We downright fought for it to be made. Just how legitimate would any of those complaints be?

I agree, they will catch flak but they are ALREADY catching a huge amount of flak for having bad endings in the first place... 

At least then we can look back on this series in 5 years with good memories (and maybe even replay it now and again). 

[Koobarex]

Tazzmission wrote...

Lord Costantino wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

PiEman wrote...

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because the game is still enjoyable. Besides, who's to say that, in the playing of the game, I don't come to really enjoy the ending on my own terms? People still go to see Shakespeare, operas, musicals, and re-watch movies and television shows, and re-read books and re-play games. Why do that if they already know the endings, the character resolutions, the twists, and even all the lines of dialogue?

But the ending ruins it the replay value for a lot of people. Yes the Journey matters but so does a destination in a game where you choose what you do.

um no it doesnt. im on my 4th play right now

the whole ending fiasco isnt the devs fault its yours because  in your own words you say to you and you alone 10 minutes of a cuscene shot the franchise dead.

now im not saying this to be a douche but i just dont understand how anyone could let 10 minutes affect a full game and im sorry but you guys are becoming worse than the star trek groups regarding whats lore and whatisnt, what a retcon is and what isnt

Well, Mass Effect is actually about much more than your average "I don't even care, I'm just playing" type of game. "Emotionally engaging" became a meme shortly after our two beloved Doctors used it a lot in a few interviews back when we were waiting for ME2, and for a reason. ME made me fall in love with it and embraced me for 2.9 games, but finished the final, crucial 0.1 with telling me she doesn't love me anymore, giving back my engagement ring and telling me that she faked it for all those 2.9 games.

And before any clever comments start to roll in, it did the very same for my girlfriend, who's as baffled with the endings and their quality as I am.

As far as being "as bad as trekkies" - that's not bad. That's good for both the franchise and the company running it. Star Trek is a household name and I'm pretty sure BW would like the title "Mass Effect" to be as well perceived and recognisable as good ol' ST.

They want me to wear those Salarian goggles and Asari headcthulhuthingies as much as ST teams want me to wear my Spock ears and prance around doing Kirk-like smiles...

...or at least I think they do.

Not sure I will continue doing that after that broken engagement. The 0.1 does matter, if it's "strategically placed" and is the very last memory I have of the whole series and the very last scene I get from the story.

Modifié par Koobarex, 15 mars 2012 - 04:44 .

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

slimgrin wrote...

Add to it with paid DLC? How do think that will go over?

The vocal minority will cry like they did with from ashses, then they will proceed to buy it when it is released.

[Lord Costantino]

JohnEpler wrote...

PiEman wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Nathos wrote...

John and Stanley

How about you spend some time to chat on the area of the forum that spoilers are allowed?

We have coffe and donuts!

I'm trying my hardest to avoid spoilers, because I've yet to have a chance to play through ME3. And, being up on the DA floor, there are large swathes of content that remain blissfully unspoiled for me, with the exception of the endings and a few bits and pieces here and there.

Thus why I can recognize spoilers a mile away.

If you know the endings, why bother playing the game at all?

Because, to me (and I know someone's going to call me out on this - so let's just avoid that and say that, yes, I recognize this is, to a degree, echoing an earlier blog post) it really is about the journey. I know where I'm going to end up, but it's the getting there that I'm looking forward to. ME1 was the first BioWare game that came out after I started working here (in fact, my first day was the ME1 launch party - good times). I was fortunate enough to get to work on ME2 (was still QA at this point), and even got to dabble in Cinematic Design. When the third game was in development, I'd become something of a permanent fixture on the Dragon Age franchise, and so I'm coming into it as a huge fan of the first game (and a huge fan of the second, although working on it did mean I didn't spend nearly as much time with it as a consumer as I might otherwise have done).

So whether or not I know the endings, I'm more concerned about what happens up to that point. And that's why I'll play through ME3, despite having the endings spoiled - I want to know what happens in the leadup.

But the ending invalidates all of your choices. You could have pick anything and gotten the same thing. BOTH the Journey and Destination matter to people in a game where you make the decisions.