1109 réponses à ce sujet

[DigitalMaster37]

I find 40,000 poll voters to be very significant, and even though that isn't the 1.86 million in sales you all have, I'd still say it would cover more than half of your ME fanbase.

Stan, tell me I'm wrong... honestly...

[jeweledleah]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Syrellaris wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Idiotking wrote...

Mr. Woo, I just ask that you keep in mind the polls that are floating around this site.  They show that it really is a majority of people who do not like the endings.

Thank you, but while they may be an indication of something, they are based on a self-selecting sample of a specific minority of our total player base. Specifically, the ones who feel the strongest about the situation and seek out ways to make their displeasure known. So yes, they are useful in gauging how our community feels, but no, not necessarily as "proof" of how the general public feels.

Thank you! I am glad you are not listening to them. To me the endings make perfect sense and I do not wish to see them changed! Thankfully bioware knows it is only the minority acting up.

I didn't say we weren't listening to them, nor did I imply it. Even if they are "only the minority," they are still part of our fanbase (and our community) and they have still provided feedback.

I wouldn't call as the minority, not at this point.  and you guys have listened to much MUCH smaller groups of fans before (I don't believe there were 10th of thousands of people asking for Tali and Garrus romance, or same sex romance, etc.. yet... here we are).

that said - personaly?  I wish I haven't purchased Mass Effect 3, or at least held off on opening it.  other issues I had with the game were relatively minor.  but the endings?  they killed my desire to play ANY video games for several days.  not to mention other adverse effects finishing ME3 had on me.  so yes, if asked right now?  I would reccomend that people at least wait on buying ME3 untill its on sale.

"its not the destination, its the journey" is in the same boat of sayings as "why is it when someone says with all due respect, they really mean - kiss my ass"  for some of us, journey is nothing without destination, and or some of us a single bad apple of an ending, kills the entire barel of otherwise good apples.

and I'll stop with metaphors now, but I hope I at least made my case even a little bit.

[Genshie]

CerberusSoldier wrote...

You know what Bioware just simply tell us Are you going to fix the endings or not . enough with the school yard games and be straight up honest with us .

They can't do that. I wouldn't do that not if I am not 100% and ready to reveal information like that.  Dlc is coming no doubt however if it is not a point where they can feel will be satisfying to those who see it then they will wait and work on it until otherwise.

[SalsaDMA]

Syrellaris wrote...

the game sold almost 2 million times. Taking into account that is
perhaps around 1.8 million unique players, the 40K is nothing but a
minority.

My country has more than 2 million citizens. Statistical analysises of pretty much anything bought and used by companies regarding stuff in my country use a way smaller sampling size than 40k to make their assumptions on.

I take it you never delved into that area yourself?

[Stanley Woo]

jimbo32 wrote...

I find it extremely hard to believe that someone at BioWare - whether a writer, producer or QA - , at some point, didn't say "No offense guys, but this ending is completely lame and makes very little sense.".

You can believe what you will. It is, in fact, extremely easy to believe something about a process that can't be explained or justified to you. Especially when the company employing that process is already a target of criticism.

I am really not at liberty to talk about the specifics of what "someone at BioWare" did or didn't do "at some point" during development.

[devSin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

that's unfortunate since they'll be missing out on a game that's, by all popular accounts, one of the best super-awesome games EVAR and a great complement to the Mass Effect series and Shepard's story... aside from the ending.

It's one of the most depressing games I've ever played (even if we discount that thing you have in place of an ending).

So not everybody who dislikes the ending ascribes to the "It was perfect except for the last 10 minutes!" theory you're extolling here (funny how it's "all popular accounts" when it's good feedback and "self-selecting sample of a specific minority" when it's negative feedback, eh?).

Stanley Woo wrote...

I am really not at liberty to talk about the specifics of what "someone at BioWare" did or didn't do "at some point" during development.

Did anyone ever jam their finger in a drawer or stub their toe on a desk?

TELL ME!

Modifié par devSin, 15 mars 2012 - 01:45 .

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Syrellaris wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Idiotking wrote...

Mr. Woo, I just ask that you keep in mind the polls that are floating around this site.  They show that it really is a majority of people who do not like the endings.

Thank you, but while they may be an indication of something, they are based on a self-selecting sample of a specific minority of our total player base. Specifically, the ones who feel the strongest about the situation and seek out ways to make their displeasure known. So yes, they are useful in gauging how our community feels, but no, not necessarily as "proof" of how the general public feels.

Thank you! I am glad you are not listening to them. To me the endings make perfect sense and I do not wish to see them changed! Thankfully bioware knows it is only the minority acting up.

I didn't say we weren't listening to them, nor did I imply it. Even if they are "only the minority," they are still part of our fanbase (and our community) and they have still provided feedback.

Not sure how you hear from the majority then. One thing is for sure, you shouldn't listen to the professional reviewers. They're all near-perfect scores.

[Vasarkian]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

hurricaneez2 wrote...

The mistake Bioware made was spending the last couple years bragging about choices effecting the outcome and how this series was gonna be like nothing ever seen. There are numerous videos of Bioware employees saying stuff like this all over this board.

The reality is we got one ending (different colors do not constitute different endings...sorry) no matter what we did100+ hours of play. So, like it or not, Bioware brought this on themselves.

The biggest mistake really is advertising the fact of interacting with the forum members instead of creating a forum for fans to talk about their games of which they can take ideas from but not have to moderate in person of which they could be spending the time creating more content for the games instead of babysitting (some not all) people here. There is a section of people here who seem to appear to believe that they have a right to interact on a personal level with the developers and rake them over the coals personally over their creative direction. Those people do not understand the concept of privilege to speak to developers instead of being just fan commentary only forum, ones who make the very games they like (or hate sometimes).

Oh if a business acted in the arrogant way you suggested, oh it would turn out so badly.

A priviledge to talk to the people I'm PAYING MY MONEY to? Hah.

Many developers do not talk directly on forums to their fanbases in person, you still buy their game or most people do. 

Hell in 80s and 90's most did not talk to their fanbases yet you still bought their game so don't be so silly.

Game Development conferences or E3 or the like have always had the type of communication with developers, and forums have almost all had some developer or writer in regards to it depending on the genre of game.

[darkshadow136]

Well I guess nothing will come of this conversation. I personally don't see were over 40,000 votes on this site is not a reasonable sample, not to mention when you take into account respected publications like Forbes backing our opinions, not to mention GameRant and other such sites changing their tune when they actually finished the game.

I also don't want ot leave out the retake ME3 movement, this sort of thing has never happened on this scale in the gaming industry that I can recall. I guess in the end time will tell, and depending on what happens, we will see if bridges can be mended or who the Majority really was.

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

Stanley Woo wrote...

cinderburster wrote...

I've talked to other Mass Effect fans that have chosen NOT to buy 3 because they've heard the ending sucks.  Regardless of where the true majority sits, word-of-mouth can--and in this case, possibly will--cost sales.

that's unfortunate since they'll be missing out on a game that's, by all popular accounts, one of the best super-awesome games EVAR and a great complement to the Mass Effect series and Shepard's story... aside from the ending. I often wish the internet did not have an "all or nothing" "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to evaluating things. It really prevents us from having more discussions like this.

You heard it here folks! Stanley Woo dislikes Mass Effect 3 endings!!

lol just messing with ya.. I do appreciate you coming in here and discussing this with us. Thanks

[rexil]

kbct wrote...

The Razman wrote...

40,000 is definitely not a small number ... but it's also a biased sample. Ignoring that is foolish.

I can understand the desire to deny the poll results, and while it doesn't represent the population, it is growing daily and at some point people will have to concede it has predictive power. How many voters does everyone want? 200K? 2M?

And there's the other polls, every poll from everywhere has the same result as this one.

[Lion-AUT-]

We will never forget, but if i am right then you know what you are doing.
So...go on...

[Wishpig]

Sentr0 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Blk_Mage_Ctype wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

We always listen and consider what our community has to say. We have been listening the entire time. That does NOT mean, however, that we are obligated to respond, to agree with you, or to develop the game to please you.

...Wow.

He meant YOU, as in a single person. They made the game in hopes to please the majority. They failed, but they certainly didn't mean too.

If you want an entire game where you can make sweet love to Joker... too bad... it's not a game just for you.

problem is the majority is all but pleased, so something must have gone wrong.



Mass Effect 3 - Ending Movie Comparison - All the Colors

Mass Effect 3 Ending and Why We Hate It! (JeremyJahns review, over 7k likes so far)


Ending pool (90% voted "Endings suck, we want a brighter one")

I don't know if you didn't read what I wrote, or if you're reinforcing it.

Modifié par Wishpig, 15 mars 2012 - 01:45 .

[cinderburster]

Stanley Woo wrote...

cinderburster wrote...

I've talked to other Mass Effect fans that have chosen NOT to buy 3 because they've heard the ending sucks.  Regardless of where the true majority sits, word-of-mouth can--and in this case, possibly will--cost sales.

that's unfortunate since they'll be missing out on a game that's, by all popular accounts, one of the best super-awesome games EVAR and a great complement to the Mass Effect series and Shepard's story... aside from the ending. I often wish the internet did not have an "all or nothing" "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to evaluating things. It really prevents us from having more discussions like this.

I am one of the people that found the endings, ah... disconcerting?  In all honesty and without drama, after I finished the game I spent an hour or so feeling rather awful.  I won't be telling people not to play the game, however.  Like I've said before, the writing and plot were solid (and at points fantastic) right up until the end.  Mostly because I have the same issues most reasonable (and logical) people are having, which I won't go into here, since this is a no spoilers section of the forum.

[MsKlaussen]

Moonshadow_Dark wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

We always listen and consider what our community has to say. We have been listening the entire time. That does NOT mean, however, that we are obligated to respond, to agree with you, or to develop the game to please you.

If you want people to buy it you are...

If that were true, explain Twilight.

I'm not a 16 year old girl anymore, but as an ex 16 year old girl, I can offer that for what Twilight was meant to do, it's doing a great job of it. It's made gods and goddesses out of its cast, still manages to make a guilty pleasure out of itself for me and many other women I know in the over 30 crowd by realizing that we still remember what made us blush back then, and turns my nieces into crazed night hags who would trample and rend anyone or anything to shreds to get to the premieres. And God forbid they leave my daughter behind. 

But that's how you play girls, and in turn, women, I am old enough to admit. Just enough cheese, just enough 'NO', etc. Most girls would have tuned in to another 5 movies waiting for that marriage payoff and enjoying every hot "almost there" minute it took, no matter how ridiculously and unrealistically long it took.

Gamer crowds are far more based in realism and less inclined to get carried away by goofy cheese, emotional appeals and deus ex machina in place of writing. Where those particular movie crowds will blow right by a lot of that, gamers will never forgive it. 

If Bioware had only the requirements that Twilight has, they could have just modeled FemShep off of Kate Beckensale's body, changed the armour to a magic titanium skinsuit, and shot a single scene of her standing next to Liara and Miranda from the back where their Omni Tools kept falling off and making them bend over to grab them. For DLC, they could add in a scene of Jack biting her lip while she flips the bird at the screen. Only 1200 Bioware points. Again, if it were solely about making 80% of the audience sweat and swoon...

But things like that are only part of the issue. There are numerous other sore spots, like a feeling that the series has marched headlong into a FPS console pit of despair, and the ommissions and subtractions from the original concept are spun away with unbelievable story add-ins. And then there's the whole "why DLC what should ship with the game", "why'd you tell us multiplayer was optional", and the always lovely "how many times do you have to cash my check before you stop checking to confirm I bought the game".

These are things that will finish the work of removing the fanbase that any lazy or disappointing writing starts. And they are also what people mean when they say you will please us if you like repeat business. 

[kbct]

aLucidMind wrote...

kbct wrote...

Syrellaris wrote...

Thank you! I am glad you are not listening to them. To me the endings make perfect sense and I do not wish to see them changed! Thankfully bioware knows it is only the minority acting up.

BioWare is gonna change the ending.

I doubt that. If they do do anything, I will bet that it is going to be expanding on it to make it make more sense and be more logical at the very most.

Agreed, but that is still changing the ending. Mr. Woo is using some strange words.

[CerberusSoldier]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Vasarkian wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Idiotking wrote...

Mr. Woo, I just ask that you keep in mind the polls that are floating around this site.  They show that it really is a majority of people who do not like the endings.

Thank you, but while they may be an indication of something, they are based on a self-selecting sample of a specific minority of our total player base. Specifically, the ones who feel the strongest about the situation and seek out ways to make their displeasure known. So yes, they are useful in gauging how our community feels, but no, not necessarily as "proof" of how the general public feels.

Don't forget that this same community is the one that made BioWare what it is today.

You mean the community that tries to force the developer to replace it's creativity for fan service and make threats such as with DA2, Liara figurine, Origin, Anime series all of which had people trying to threaten cancellations which led the the meme of "Pre-Order cancelled" and of which is a small sub section of the overall amount of people who buy their games which equates to less than 1%?

    





Liara in ME 3 is completely fan service and a forced one at that . hell the Squad in ME 3 is fan service for the ME 1 fans . lets not talk about fan service because ME 1 fans got a Sh*** ton of it in this game

[jijeebo]

CerberusSoldier wrote...

You know what Bioware just simply tell us Are you going to fix the endings or not . enough with the school yard games and be straight up honest with us .

This would be nice, it's getting tiresome trying to figure out what the frickity frack is going to happen.


If you're planning to adress the complaints, say so.

If you want to leave it as is, say so.

Heck even if you don't know what you're planning to do at the moment, say so.


Just stop being cryptic with crap like "We're looking at the feedback and appreciate the points made, doesn't mean we're going to do anything though... But never say never, but never say definately... But if you knew what we were planning you'd definately keep your copies forever, but that doesn't mean we're fixing the reason people would give their copies away... But it also doesn't mean we aren't."

Please?

[Farbautisonn]

kbct wrote...

The Razman wrote...

40,000 is definitely not a small number ... but it's also a biased sample. Ignoring that is foolish.

I can understand the desire to deny the poll results, and while it doesn't represent the population, it is growing daily and at some point people will have to concede it has predictive power. How many voters does everyone want? 200K? 2M?

This.

And whilst its easy to dismiss the 45k as being "unrepresentative" of the "overall target group", its still a number that that is significantly higher than polling presidency campains or elections in all western states. By a factor of ten.

Disregarding that or trivializing that does not seem particularily... optimal, to me.

I do not mind a push for a wider target audience. I do however mind feeling that I am being forgotten and  taken for granted as a loyal customer. If I feel that the core competance is being shifted to a point where I am no longer valued as a client and a loyal client at that, I have zero reason to continue said loyalty. That, mind you, is no threat, veiled or otherwise. Its just a simple fact.

[Sentr0]

it's not just the pools here... basically in every gaming forum of the world people complain about the ending. If you dont trust me just google a little...

[jimbo32]

dragonage200200 wrote...

jimbo32 wrote...

I find it extremely hard to believe that someone at BioWare - whether a writer, producer or QA - , at some point, didn't say "No offense guys, but this ending is completely lame and makes very little sense.".

If you and your friends do a science project, and 90% of your friends are satisfiyed with the result, are you gonna be the 10% that says "Wow guys, this will get use a C at best"

It is human nature not to be the oddball out.

Well, the difference is that BioWare (assumably) have people on-staff whose job it is to make sure the product is at the highest standard it can possibly be. I understand where you're coming from (and the earlier "go with the flow" response as well), but seriously....someone said at some point "the fans are gonna hate this". If that never happened, someone needs to be finding a new job.

[LegendaryBlade]

Does Bioware have any comment on the sheer scale of the Demand a New Ending movement? 30,000 fans on facebook, FOURTY THOUSAND dollars donated to charity in the name of a new ending. A planned letter writing campaign, your fans are begging and pleading.

[HiroVoid]

I'll just try and leave my thoughts here quick. I'm certainly no professional writer, and not even an often poster, so it may not be articulated well.

In this day in age, word of mouth is a very powerful tool. We don't live in an age where people only have a review or something to listen to. People can communicate with so many others in ways they never could before. This can be used both positively and negatively.

Positively, we have the projects at kickstarter now.

http://www.kickstart...-fine-adventure

They funded $3 million which is more than the budget for a lot of their old adventure games and their recent games 'Costume Quest' and 'Stacking'. They can only make this now with fans' help because they could never get a publisher to fund it, and 20 years ago, you couldn't connect with people like this.

http://www.kickstart...d-2?ref=history

'Wasteland 2' which is an old-school RPG game that's only going to be made using the same way. Again, this is something that could only be funded with fan support because no publisher would finance it.

http://retakemasseff...ect-childs-play

Even if you disagree with the why, over a thousand fans have been able to come together to fund over $40,000 for a charity organization.

Negatively(your opinions may vary)

Word of mouth carries people's opinions much more to other people faster than anything. Instead of just relying on reviews, people will hear about a lot of people saying something is crap before they may end up buying it. This is the case for movies as well. I also personally believe this is why DA2 ended up dropping so quickly in sales after initial release.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 15 mars 2012 - 01:47 .