34 réponses à ce sujet

[Nataku88]

After have played the game with mage, i want to try a meele class. The 2h warrior would be fun, but i have read some post against this type of warrior and i need some information to understand well the situation.

1) someone say that 2h styles are useless instead 2w styles. i don't know why? I see the description of both 2W and 2H styles and 2H seem to be good maybe better of 2W.

2) someone say that is more difficult hit with 2h weapon. why?

3) i see some 2h build with a lot of dex for increase hit chance. but also str increase hit chance, so why spend point over dex? only for defence? or dex increase hit % more than str?

[Bluesmith]

DW dps is better for a number of reasons. Many of the 2H talents are garbage (Powerful Swings, Shattering Blows, Critical Strike), and 2Hers rely heavily on Indomitable which is a massive stam sink. 2Hers attack very slowly, and attribute mods through 2H weapons do not compensate for the loss of a second weapon (and the accompanying stats/runes) or the insanely slow attack rate. Missing once will cripple your dps, and bursting enemies down just doesn't happen on nightmare due to high miss rates. Many 2H talents - almost paradoxically - carry implicit -attack (-hit) modifiers.

Plus, DW has momentum, which is just out of control.

[Looy]

Duel Wield is vastly superior, it lacks Knockdowns but if you want stuns play Shield or just roll a mage.

[Hahren]

Part of the problem I see with talking about 2h weapons is the discussion of the skill set as if it is in a vacuum. If you plan to solo the game a 2h warrior might be more trouble than it is worth. If you are looking for a character that can add support while providing damage options then 2h might be worth while.



I happen to enjoy micro managing my characters. I do not let my 2h warrior use mighty blow/critical strike on cooldown. I let my mage cast cold of cone, and then with my 2h warrior I can often shatter 2 targets. Against higher armor enemies I happen to like sunder armor. Destroyer is nice too, and adds to the joy of telekinetic weapons vs Revenants/Dragons.



The 2h tree is far from perfect. There are several issues with the talents, but I have a lot of issue with the power in the dual wield tree too. Despite it's short comings 2h weapons can be fun. Just don't run Powerful Swings early on. Even after you get Two-handed Strength you may still find the penalty to hit & defense not worth the damage increase.



As for stats I prioritized Strength. It gets at least 2 points every level. I throw a bit into dex for defense, and willpower for more stamina as I see fit. 2h weapons is very active, and eventually you may find yourself running a lot of sustained abilities. You'll want some more than the base willpower to cover that. Though there is hardly a need to go wild dumping points there.



I convert Alistair into either a dw or a 2h fighter every time now. I don't have the respec mod on a console so I have to live with the 4 wasted points in shield style. I run with a dual wielder rogue/warrior, 2h user, archer, and mage. Debuffs, and AoE all over the place. I tend to micro manage my team, and I don't let the scripts run skills I want to use tactically. I have yet to face a boss I couldn't beat, and hordes of enemies fall.



There are so many ways to play this game. As long as you enjoy it then go for it. Give 2h weapons a try to about 10-12th level. Don't run powerful swings, and then make a call on what you think of it. It's not for everyone, but I happen to like it.

[Hunter246]

My two hander does just fine.

Modifié par Hunter246, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:55 .

[Darth_Shizz]

Bluesmith wrote...

DW dps is better for a number of reasons. Many of the 2H talents are garbage (Powerful Swings, Shattering Blows, Critical Strike), and 2Hers rely heavily on Indomitable which is a massive stam sink.

Much in the same way a dual-wielder relies heavily on momentum, which is also a huge stamina sink? Both increase damage one way or another throughout a majority of the game. Whereas momentum does this through increased attack speed, indomitable adds a small amount of attack damage, but more importantly, makes you immune to all knockdowns and stuns (though knockbacks will still work), in turn, increasing the amount of damage done. Indomitable will also work alongside haste, whereas momentum will not. 2 handers are also able to make use of the Warden's Keep talent Blood Thirst, which will further increase their crit (10%) and speed, whereas dual wielders suffer to horrible extents with it if they have dual-weapon expert.

I also need to point out...doesn't momentum effectively make a majority of the dw talent useless in terms of damage? At least this is what I've seen a lot of people claim. And on what planet is Critical Strike "garbage"? 0_o I find it odd that on the one hand, you claim that 2-handers are worthless because of their slow attack speed, yet you decry critical strike, which is essentially a guaranteed critical with a chance to kill non low-health non-bosses outright, one that isn't based on the normal swing timer (it's around as quick as the swing of a hasted 2hander). This is before adding in the great talents they have such as sunder arms/armour (debuffs + 2 quick hits at normal damage), Sweep (360degree knockdown), destroyer (automatic sunder on hit), stunning blows (good chance to stun an enemy) . I've highlighted the last two in particular, because I believe they deserve a special mention; they're both passives that work on every hit...yes, even 2 handed sweep

Bluesmith wrote...
Missing once will cripple your dps, and bursting enemies down just doesn't happen on nightmare due to high miss rates. Many 2H talents - almost paradoxically - carry implicit -attack (-hit) modifiers.

I'm curious which abilities carry that "implicit  (negative) attack modifier" you mentioned? Powerful swings has a rather explicit negative modifier (though it's by no means terrible). Yet you're implying there are other talents which apply a similar effect; certainly a bug I wasn't aware of if it's true.

As for the miss rate of a 2-hander, it's nowhere near as bad as people would have you believe; my dw warrior finished the game at level 22 with a hit rate of 91%. My current 2hander has 86%. I won't deny that it'll probably hurt more when you miss as a 2 hander (as I said above though...haste + blood thirst are viable on a 2 hander), but then again, single weapons have far less penetration than what a 2 hander can achieve, not to mention reductions that are applied twice and far more often due to the increased amount of hits

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

I agree with the others, 2H fighting is not very good.

Nataku88 wrote...
1) someone say that 2h styles are useless instead 2w styles. i don't know why? I see the description of both 2W and 2H styles and 2H seem to be good maybe better of 2W.

Like the others say, 2H are too slow, and you miss a lot due to low dex (and they hit you a lot because you miss defense too) 2W are really fast and even with low damage weapons you add the rune elemental damage in each hit, making enemies die for dozens (and you have two AoE abilities). the major avantage of 2H is "indomitable"  ability to make you inmune to knockdown and stun , but as a sword and shield warrior you have one, and much more advantages. 

Nataku88 wrote...
2) someone say that is more difficult hit with 2h weapon. why?

hit rate depends on dex and str, and you dont have many of these. And if you miss one hit with 1H or 2W you can atack soon, but with a 2H enemies hit you dozen times before you hit again

Nataku88 wrote...
3) i see some 2h build with a lot of dex for increase hit chance. but also str increase hit chance, so why spend point over dex? only for defence? or dex increase hit % more than str?

hit rate depends 50% str and dex , if you play hard or  nightmare or so you will miss a lot if you have low of this.

[Hunter246]

With twohanders you must know your not tank so let tank get agros and you hit the enemies on him my two hander was ok so far.

[hexaligned]

Useless? no, it doesn't have anything that makes up for the hugely inferior damage it does though, if that's what you are asking.

[Raxxman]

I find on nightmare 2handers are signifcantly better because of Indom.



Indom is the best skill in the whole warrior tree, It's useful against all classes of enemies, mages/melee/archer/ogres/dragons. I'd say it's overpowered tbh.

[Darth_Shizz]

arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

I agree with the others, 2H fighting is not very good.

Like the others say, 2H are too slow, and you miss a lot due to low dex (and they hit you a lot because you miss defense too) 2W are really fast and even with low damage weapons you add the rune elemental damage in each hit, making enemies die for dozens (and you have two AoE abilities). the major avantage of 2H is "indomitable"  ability to make you inmune to knockdown and stun , but as a sword and shield warrior you have one, and much more advantages.  

I feel as if people don't read previous points have you seen a 2 handers rate of attack with haste and blood thirst? (I've even been told that multiple hastes stack up to the increased speed % cap). These are both talents that a dw CANNOT currently take advantage of (to an extent with blood thirst + dw expert at least).

I also need to point out that shield wall + shield mastery only make him immune to targetted knockdown effects, but not stuns. Indomitable will also add immunity at a much lower level than shield wall + expertise can, making it useful through more of the game.

arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

hit rate depends on dex and str, and you dont have many of these. And if you miss one hit with 1H or 2W you can atack soon, but with a 2H enemies hit you dozen times before you hit again


hit rate depends 50% str and dex , if you play hard or  nightmare or so you will miss a lot if you have low of this.

A dw warrior will typically go 36 dex for dual-weapon mastery, then the rest in strength/willpower/constitution...in that order.

A 2h warrior will typically go 18 dex in order to get to 4th tier warrior talents for Perfect Striking. The rest will go into strength, then either willpower with the odd point of constitution, or more cons with slightly less willpower (depending on specs).

So we have:

2h - 70 str/18 dex = high hit rate (.5 for every point of str and dex above 10)

dw - 50 str/36 dex = high hit rate (.5 for every point of str and dex above 10)

See what I'm getting at here?

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Vaylor66]

2 hand isn't that bad. It has some nice stunning and knockdown capabilities. It also has indomitable which is really good. The problems it does face are things like +damage not being as useful. Adding 15 points of rune damage won't add up to as much dps as it would on a 1 hand weapon. The same thing applies to damage boosting abilities like berserker. You're best off going champion/templar as a 2h.



They do good with haste, but that's a big mana sink, and you really need 3 melee's to make use of it, which heavily stresses your 1 casters mana. I'm about halfway through a nightmare play where I was using myself as a 2h warrior with sten, ogden, and wynn with haste up. They actually were killing stuff pretty good, and there was no worries about tanking since all 3 could take a few hits. Bosses fell surprisingly fast. Mighty blow and critical strike from 3 guys pretty much dropped anything. Two handed sweeps going off all over is pretty decent cc as well.

[Bluesmith]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Bluesmith wrote...

DW dps is better for a number of reasons. Many of the 2H talents are garbage (Powerful Swings, Shattering Blows, Critical Strike), and 2Hers rely heavily on Indomitable which is a massive stam sink.

Much in the same way a dual-wielder relies heavily on momentum, which is also a huge stamina sink? Both increase damage one way or another throughout a majority of the game. Whereas momentum does this through increased attack speed, indomitable adds a small amount of attack damage, but more importantly, makes you immune to all knockdowns and stuns (though knockbacks will still work), in turn, increasing the amount of damage done. Indomitable will also work alongside haste, whereas momentum will not. 2 handers are also able to make use of the Warden's Keep talent Blood Thirst, which will further increase their crit (10%) and speed, whereas dual wielders suffer to horrible extents with it if they have dual-weapon expert.

Momentum is significnatly better at increasing raw dps. 1.4 speed vs. +1.0 damage (I haven't extensively tested in-game, but this is what the script for Indom says)? Indom is mostly for stun/knockback immunity, from which it indirectly draws a dps bonus (less time on back = more time attacking). Indom also costs 60 stam base compared to 40 for momentum. It takes 10 seconds of sustained combat to bring momentum to Indoms cost. Moreoever, this can be mitigated by slowing or reversing degen (rejuv, for example), while Indom's effect cannot be. WK talents aren't enough, and that's paid content for most of us in any case (although I do have it). Stacking with Haste is situational; toons should not functionally require other classes to make them useful... There is a difference between "support" and a leash.

Darth_Shizz wrote...
I also need to point out...doesn't momentum effectively make a majority of the dw talent useless in terms of damage?

Yes, particularly for rogues. This doesn't mean DW itself is bad, only that it has some bad talents. The badness of its talents, however, does not offset its dps advantage over 2Hers, and the most critical DW talents (Sweep, WW) are still worth using through momentum.

Darth_Shizz wrote...
And on what planet is Critical Strike "garbage"? 0_o I find it odd that on the one hand, you claim that 2-handers are worthless because of their slow attack speed, yet you decry critical strike, which is essentially a guaranteed critical with a chance to kill non low-health non-bosses outright, one that isn't based on the normal swing timer (it's around as quick as the swing of a hasted 2hander).

First, it has to hit. Unlike Mighty Blow, it only has a 5.0 hit bias (as opposed to 10.0). On high difficulties, it can and will miss. This is incredibly painful...
Instant kills do not work on bosses. They work only on non-boss mobs with health below 20.x%. In other words, mobs that would be killed by a critical - hell, regular hit - anyway.
It costs 40 (same as Mighty Blow) and does basically the same thing. It's on a 60 second long cooldown and is a fourth-tier talent. Halve the cooldown and make it a first or second-tier talent (possibly replacing Powerful Swings) and we'll talk. To be honest, I'd rather it replace Mighty Blow, and have Mighty Blow be an 'upgraded' version of it (adding a knockback effect or something).

Darth_Shizz wrote...
This is before adding in the great talents they have such as sunder arms/armour (debuffs + 2 quick hits at normal damage), Sweep (360degree knockdown), destroyer (automatic sunder on hit), stunning blows (good chance to stun an enemy) . I've highlighted the last two in particular, because I believe they deserve a special mention; they're both passives that work on every hit...yes, even 2 handed sweep

Yes, sunders are situationally good. But sunders are largely wasteful on non-orange mobs because of the speed at which you dispatch them (even on nightmare+). The sunder effects only apply if the second hit connects and can be resisted (in fact, I should say tends to be resisted, at least on higher difficulties). Destroyer only drops armor by 5.0. Effects don't stack.

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Bluesmith wrote...
Missing once will cripple your dps, and bursting enemies down just doesn't happen on nightmare due to high miss rates. Many 2H talents - almost paradoxically - carry implicit -attack (-hit) modifiers.

I'm curious which abilities carry that "implicit  (negative) attack modifier" you mentioned? Powerful swings has a rather explicit negative modifier (though it's by no means terrible). Yet you're implying there are other talents which apply a similar effect; certainly a bug I wasn't aware of if it's true.

Powerful Swings: -10.0 (which is huge), reducable to -5.0 (still painful on higher difficulties). The benefit? 5.0 swing damage bonus.
Sweep has a[n intended?] hit bias of -10.0.
Sunder Armor has a hit bias of 0x2.
Sunder Arms hasa  hit bias of 0x2.
Critical Strike has a hit bias of 5x1.
Mighty Blow has a hit bias of 10x1.
Pommel Strike is not really a strike.

With the slow swing speed and long cooldown rate on 2H talents, any bias below +10 (let alone penalties) is crushing. This is why, when you play a 2Her on nightmare, you'll find yourself often spamming Mighty Blow and  Pommel Strike to the exclusion of all other talents. They just "seem" to hit more often (and, in fact, they do). If stam wasn't an issue I could see this being spammed more despite their miss rates,  but in-game its such a precious resource that you can't afford to squander it. I haven't done the math, but I reckon that Powerful Swings actually decreases your dps thanks to its hit penalty, low damage bonus, and stam expenditure...

Darth_Shizz wrote...
As for the miss rate of a 2-hander, it's nowhere near as bad as people would have you believe; my dw warrior finished the game at level 22 with a hit rate of 91%. My current 2hander has 86%. I won't deny that it'll probably hurt more when you miss as a 2 hander (as I said above though...haste + blood thirst are viable on a 2 hander), but then again, single weapons have far less penetration than what a 2 hander can achieve, not to mention reductions that are applied twice and far more often due to the increased amount of hits .

Missing with a 2Her is punishing. Miss once on a white mob and it might very well be dead before you can swing again. In that case, you'd be better off with a single-weilded dagger; at least you'd then contribute to a marginally faster kill. 2Hers also suffer from decreased stats and runes over DWing (a problem that bleeds into bows and contributes to some of archery's own issues).

2Hers aren't killurself-bad, but they are pretty much strictly inferior to the alternative. They need a buff.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:41 .

[Nataku88]

Thanks a lot for all info, now I have more clear a lot of things

[Yummyclaw]

It also depends on level. DWer are slightly slower since they need 24 Dex for momentum (36 if you go for Dual-Weapon Mastery ) and Str in the mid 20s for decent armor. So a main character wouldn't be awesome until near level 10 (12 for DWM) and a party member will need at least 5 levels to work on. Oh but the wait is well worth it.



2her are so frontloaded it is not even funny. You just boost Str, grab an activated talent, and spam it like no tomorrow. Indomitable is easy to get. It's just that at the 45 second mark of the fight, they suck due to no stamina. But those first 20 seconds are crazy.

[crossover.attack]

People can argue numbers all day long, but presumably you are playing for fun. One of the difficulties with playing a 2H warrior is the considerably lower swing speed/attack rate. While the increased damage may make up for it, if you have been playing another melee class/type this attack speed can feel excruciatingly slow. In reality, it's not that much worse, but it feels like it. Load one of your older saves and run around as Sten for a while to see if you like it. All character types are doable as long as you're not trying to solo.

Modifié par crossover.attack, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Darth_Shizz]

Bluesmith wrote...
It takes 10 seconds of sustained combat to bring momentum to Indoms cost. Moreoever, this can be mitigated by slowing or reversing degen (rejuv, for example), while Indom's effect cannot be. WK talents aren't enough, and that's paid content for most of us in any case (although I do have it). Stacking with Haste is situational; toons should not functionally require other classes to make them useful... There is a difference between "support" and a leash.

Thing is, dual-wielders don't tend to have the same luxury of attribute points 2 handers do. As a rule, you'll tend to find more 2 handers with higher willpower than dws. On top of that, it's quite possible for a plate wearing 2 hander to get 100+ more raw stamina over a typical dual wielder just through itemization, which is pretty significant even after a minor fatigue penalty. 

The DLC argument aside, currently, a 2 hander CAN choose to use blood thirst (regardless of it being part of dlc or not, it's there, to the benefit of a 2 hander) and gain marginal speed and great critical bonus. As far as I've seen, a dual-wielder applies his own laceration damage to that, making it pretty broken for a dual'er. On top of that, I'm not sure you can argue against a 2 hander's worth being gauged based solely on his own skills, especially considering your comment on using rejuvenation to mitigate the stamina loss of momentum. Not to mention you CAN choose to run with 2 mages (currently in a nightmare game with wynne/morrigan/2hsten/2hpc) both with haste for an insane speed boost. It's not situational at all. You can have haste running non-stop if you wish, considering mana in this game is a bit of a non-issue The only real downside to this is increased fatigue (though you could just balance this through increased willpower, which seems like a fair trade-off considering.) Again, this is not something that benefits a dual wielder. 

Bluesmith wrote...
Yes, particularly for rogues. This doesn't mean DW itself is bad, only that it has some bad talents. The badness of its talents, however, does not offset its dps advantage over 2Hers, and the most critical DW talents (Sweep, WW) are still worth using through momentum.

I wouldn't even say that the dual-wield talents are bad. On the contrary really. It's a case of their auto-attack being far too good whilst using momentum. If I had to put the two trees side by side and comment on their use, for me, 2 handed would probably come ahead of dual-wield. Not so much in terms of the talents themselves, but because the dual-wield trees become fairly redundant when using say...dual daggers and momentum. Not as if this changes anything regarding DPS, but then, this isn't really what the discussion is about

Bluesmith wrote...
First, it has to hit. Unlike Mighty Blow, it only has a 5.0 hit bias (as opposed to 10.0). On high difficulties, it can and will miss. This is incredibly painful...
Instant kills do not work on bosses. They work only on non-boss mobs with health below 20.x%. In other words, mobs that would be killed by a critical - hell, regular hit - anyway.
It costs 40 (same as Mighty Blow) and does basically the same thing. It's on a 60 second long cooldown and is a fourth-tier talent. Halve the cooldown and make it a first or second-tier talent (possibly replacing Powerful Swings) and we'll talk. To be honest, I'd rather it replace Mighty Blow, and have Mighty Blow be an 'upgraded' version of it (adding a knockback effect or something).

I was under the impression that it was actually 30%? (knew it was on non-boss mobs, as stated of course) And surely that all depends on the non-boss mob in question?? On a non-squishy lieutenant, it actually has some use. Other than that, it's another quick 2 handed attack. This is definitely one I'm going to have to try out in game more, as I'd be surprised if something magical is not hiding in there. Either way, given that stamina shouldn't be a huge problem for a well-specced and geared 2 hander, I refuse to write this one off as being useless, if not slightly underpowered at face value.

Bluesmith wrote...
Yes, sunders are situationally good. But sunders are largely wasteful on non-orange mobs because of the speed at which you dispatch them (even on nightmare+). The sunder effects only apply if the second hit connects and can be resisted (in fact, I should say tends to be resisted, at least on higher difficulties). Destroyer only drops armor by 5.0. Effects don't stack.

Indeed. However, if you consider the main role of a 2 hander is to be a utility damage dealer/controller/tank, then this still proves itself to be a very useful skill. Take a 2 hander, stick him in the middle of 6-7 mobs and sweep. Each one now has less armour. Bring in a dual-wielder to whirlwind/sweep, and that's a nice amount of dps added.

Bluesmith wrote...
Powerful Swings: -10.0 (which is huge), reducable to -5.0 (still painful on higher difficulties). The benefit? 5.0 swing damage bonus.
Sweep has a[n intended?] hit bias of -10.0.
Sunder Armor has a hit bias of 0x2.
Sunder Arms hasa  hit bias of 0x2.
Critical Strike has a hit bias of 5x1.
Mighty Blow has a hit bias of 10x1.
Pommel Strike is not really a strike.

With the slow swing speed and long cooldown rate on 2H talents, any bias below +10 (let alone penalties) is crushing. This is why, when you play a 2Her on nightmare, you'll find yourself often spamming Mighty Blow and  Pommel Strike to the exclusion of all other talents. They just "seem" to hit more often (and, in fact, they do). If stam wasn't an issue I could see this being spammed more despite their miss rates,  but in-game its such a precious resource that you can't afford to squander it. I haven't done the math, but I reckon that Powerful Swings actually decreases your dps thanks to its hit penalty, low damage bonus, and stam expenditure...

This would explain why I see sweep missing more often than any other talent. Whether or not it was intended though? It's hard to say...it already feels fairly powerful as it is when factoring in passives (destroyer/stunning/frightening appearance). It'd be nice if it was mentioned in the tool-tip though, and that's assuming that it is in fact, working as intended. As for the hit rate of talents in general. I can't really say that I'm having much trouble on this nightmare playthrough. For the most part, I rarely seem to miss with critical strike and the sunders. Even when I find myself activating powerful swings towards the end of a fight, the -5 attack isn't THAT painful, not when you consider you can easily gain this back by turning on precise striking (and I suppose activating perfect striking). Also, I'll again point out that thanks to 2 handed swings benefiting greatly from + attack speed buffs, them missing becomes far less painful as you get on in the game.

Bluesmith wrote...
Missing with a 2Her is punishing. Miss once on a white mob and it might very well be dead before you can swing again. In that case, you'd be better off with a single-weilded dagger; at least you'd then contribute to a marginally faster kill...

...2Hers aren't killurself-bad, but they are pretty much strictly inferior to the alternative. They need a buff.

I can't entirely disagree on this. 2 handers aren't going to match dual wielders for damage, though in fairness, looking at the layout of the tree, I don't believe this was ever the intention. However. In my part setup, I rarely have issues with mobs dying before my 2 handers land the finishing blows. Considering the only other damaging character that isn't 2 handed is morrigan, and there are generally A LOT of mobs present in any one battle (I don't tend to just chuck out blizzards/cones of cold as if they're going out of fashion), having each of the warriors handle 3-4 mobs each, whilst morrigan cc's and picks them off one by one seems to work well enough for me, with a minimal amount of wasted attacks. I'd imagine this would be pretty different depending on the party though.

Bluesmith wrote...
2Hers also suffer from decreased stats and runes over DWing (a problem that bleeds into bows and contributes to some of archery's own issues).

Unfortunately this is expected. On the plus side, it does give a 2 hander more reason to go with a more defensive sword setup. Despite that, as I've stated a few times, it's not as if dual-wielders aren't missing out on certain aspects that 2 handers can take advantage of.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[DKJaigen]

Yummyclaw wrote...

It also depends on level. DWer are slightly slower since they need 24 Dex for momentum (36 if you go for Dual-Weapon Mastery ) and Str in the mid 20s for decent armor. So a main character wouldn't be awesome until near level 10 (12 for DWM) and a party member will need at least 5 levels to work on. Oh but the wait is well worth it.

2her are so frontloaded it is not even funny. You just boost Str, grab an activated talent, and spam it like no tomorrow. Indomitable is easy to get. It's just that at the 45 second mark of the fight, they suck due to no stamina. But those first 20 seconds are crazy.

Not true. for 1 you forget the power damage runes poisons and mage weapon echancements. second part you forget that DW warriors have acces to both flurry and dual sweep at that level. both abilites are in my opnion better then sunder arms/armor

[konfeta]

Say, a quick detour, why Dual Striking miss so freakin' much? It's as if every third attack misses, when turning it off results in almost every attack landing. It feels as if there is no point to the mode because of it...

[DrekorSilverfang]

Thing is, dual-wielders don't tend to have the same luxury of attribute points 2 handers do. As a rule, you'll tend to find more 2 handers with higher willpower than dws. On top of that, it's quite possible for a plate wearing 2 hander to get 100+ more raw stamina over a typical dual wielder just through itemization, which is pretty significant even after a minor fatigue penalty.

No it really isn't significant, as has already been pointed out the activated abilities of DW outside of dual sweep and whirlwind are pretty terrible. Typically it's better to load up on sustained buffs and burn through people so having more stam to spam abilities is irrelevant as you won't be using more than 1-2 in any fight. Which is nice considering a 2h needs to constantly spam abilities with a limited stam pool.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Dual-wielding is far superiour.

Why?

Because two-handers are too slow. If you use Flaming/Telekenetic/Frost weapons with a high Magic mage, the buff will add like 20-30 damage per hit. Dual-wielding hits very rapidly and each attack gets the damage bonus.

They need to even it out by increasing the damage bonus two-handed weapons get from these abilities to compensate for their slower attack rate.

[Darth_Shizz]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Thing is, dual-wielders don't tend to have the same luxury of attribute points 2 handers do. As a rule, you'll tend to find more 2 handers with higher willpower than dws. On top of that, it's quite possible for a plate wearing 2 hander to get 100+ more raw stamina over a typical dual wielder just through itemization, which is pretty significant even after a minor fatigue penalty.

No it really isn't significant, as has already been pointed out the activated abilities of DW outside of dual sweep and whirlwind are pretty terrible. Typically it's better to load up on sustained buffs and burn through people so having more stam to spam abilities is irrelevant as you won't be using more than 1-2 in any fight. Which is nice considering a 2h needs to constantly spam abilities with a limited stam pool.

Talk about take a point out of context. He compared the stamina cost of imdomitable to momentum, when essentially, it isn't an issue due to the point I made. Go back and re-read it, it's right there. As for them "needing to "constantly spam abilities with a limited stam pool", really? Just because they auto-attack less often, and make better use of their activated abilities, it doesn't mean they "need to constantly spam". And don't even get me started on the "limited stamina pool" comment...I've explained that one to death already.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Darth_Shizz]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
They need to even it out by increasing the damage bonus two-handed weapons get from these abilities to compensate for their slower attack rate.

And what happens when someone decides to stack haste? What then??

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 28 novembre 2009 - 09:35 .

[rumination888]

2H tips:

2H only misses a lot in the beginning. Dump every point into strength and by the time you reach level 5-6, you'll have over 90% hit rate, and this is on hard/nightmare difficulty. You'll need to continue dumping all points into strength if you want to eventually hit 99% hit rate and keep it that way(remember, enemies scale with you). You can save a point every level for willpower if you want to wear massive armor for aesthetic reasons, but I prefer to wear medium/heavy armor and dump all points into strength. More damage and accuracy that way.

Never ever use Precise Striking.
You shouldn't be using Powerful Swings either until you're a higher level. That skill is a trap for noobs due to its heavy attack reduction.

It amazes me how in every post that deals with 2Handers, people still think dexterity is useful. Strength gives you the same amount of attack(accuracy) per point as dexterity.

Critical Strike's deathblow works on elites and higher. Elites simply have high physical resistance, so you need an equally high amount of strength to overcome it.

Sunder Weapon is worthless. Never ever waste stamina on it.
Sunder Armor is good against heavily armored foes such as Revenants, but only if you have 2 other physical damage dealers in your team. Never waste your stamina on that ability unless those conditions are met.
Pommel Strike is only good to knock an enemy down after theyve grabbed one of your characters. Don't waste stamina on that except in that special case.

Mighty Swing, Critical Strike, and Two-Handed Sweep are the only activated abilities you should use. In medium dragonscale armor, you can spam those abilities every cooldown with just your base starting willpower.

[Bluesmith]

Ulrikk:
Another flaw with 2Hers, yes. +damage and other procs need to be normalized for weapon speed. They currently are not.

Darth_Shizz:
You make some good points, and I don't think we actually disagree on anything. As I've stated, I think there is a niche for 2Hers. Unfortunately, your party is limited to 4. I've laid out most of the problems with the spec, and people can draw what conclusions they will from our discussion and their own playtesting. I just think that 2Hers need help, and that there is little reason to spec that way unless you're doing so for RP reasons.

rumination888:
Precise Striking is actually quite good. For a 10% swing speed penalty it confers +10 attack and +2.5+0.5/lvl crit. Powerful Swings is terrible at pretty much any level, although you are correct in that it improves as you pump strength and/or acquire +attack through gear. Still, attack is one of the most powerful derived stats in the game. Accordingly, any wise player will only hesitantly suffer its decrease, particularly when the "bonus" you buy for the loss is as marginal as Powerful Swings' is.

What you posted about Critical Strike is actually wrong. CS's death blow does not have a physical resistance check. If the attack hits, the game forces it into a crit (nResult = COMBAT_RESULT_CRITICALHIT). Then, it checks the creature's rank (isCreatureBossRank) and its health (fCurrentHealth/fMaxHealth). If the former is anything but boss rank and the latter is less than or equal to 0.2, the game forces fDamage = fCurrentHealth + 1.0 and nResult = COMBAT_RESULT_DEATHBLOW.

Sunder applies -10attack or -20AC (depending on which you use) for 10s. Those are actually quite severe debuffs, particularly on melee-heavy bosses. If stam was not so precious, sundering bosses would be a given.
Pommel is an excellent interrupt. It's one of the best interrupts available to warriors, actually, because it is near-instant and doesn't involve a hit check. Rogues have better options (Dirty Fighting) and mages are, of course, totally broken in re CC, but warriors don't have a whole lot else.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:12 .