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Checkmate: Why Your Opinion Simply Doesn't Matter


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#276
dkear1

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thealgebraist wrote...
Out of interest, do you actually expect me to believe that? Of course you can have something of most one type of impact but opposite of composition. But go back and look at what it was you were using the composition as a defence against. That's what makes addressing the composition in terms of its deliberate lack of context not reframing. 

The bits you claim don't explain your question? I brought it up again because of what immediately followed that sentence.

They are opposites. Either the composition is justification to negate the impact of the ending. Or the Impact of the ending negates using composition as justification.

I've read all the Tl:DRs in your signature, which leaves me wondering why you are even having this debate.


For kicks.............?

#277
thealgebraist

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joshko wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

thealgebraist wrote...

Isn't it clever how you left the parts out of the quotes that answered the questions you raised?

Since they didn't, no.

I addressed the fact that compositional difference was without context of the impact of each part of your ratio, which btw is still addressing it terms of composition. Which you already know. Additionally my explanation of my counter arguement (which you actually quoted) shows that I did not in fact reposition my point as the original subject.

No, your counterargument (either of them) did not.

Your first one reframed the argument to something I was not claiming. The second merely accused re-framing when I shifted it back. No matter how many times you insist that addressing a compsoitional point as an impact argument isn't reframing, it still is reframing an point.

You have argued by the extension of your logic (and with any particular creative liscence on my part) both actually. You used the ratio of good hours to bad ours as a defence, but then tried to tell you stated the opposite of that explicitly.

Except they aren't opposites.

A product can have a mostly good or bad impact while being the inverse in composition.

I did not misrepresent your arguement by reframing, as per the above.

You pretty much do, but hey. You're committed.


Get back to the real debate, your attacks on eachother are getting boring.



I am trying. I made the real debate in my first post to the OP. Which basically said my issue was with what Bioware have done with the ending. Stating explicitly several things to expect, and then going in the opposite direction. I tried to keep all of my points on topic too "the bad impact of the ending outweighs the rest of the good. and that impact comes from what bioware told us to expect. Which goes against the OP's original statement of our reaction"

#278
kunzite

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joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

Dean_the_Young, I gotta give you credit. Your debate skills are impressive. Not only are you churning out a rather thought-provoking discussion with Nekroso22, you're essentially debating the art of debating with thealgebraist at the same time. How can you keep so many thoughts running seperate at once?

Get into enough fights online and it comes naturally.


Well, he shut me down earlier in the thread, just been a quiet spectator since. It's rather odd to admit I've been entertained by the whole thing.


It's simple realy.
People are looking to hard to justify why they should have a new ending.
If you relax and think a bit you will realize that it's all because you don't agree with the writer's style or interpritation.
All this talk of plot holes are desperate attempts to justify oneself, sure they are problems, but inflated due to the anger inspired due to the endings.


I dont think there is much of a problem with justifying oneself, especially if people are going to attack your opinion or even simply ask you what disagree with.

#279
GuretoOnizuka

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We Speak With Our Wallets

www.flickr.com/photos/76143059@N04/6837710858/

#280
joshko

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kunzite wrote...

joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

Dean_the_Young, I gotta give you credit. Your debate skills are impressive. Not only are you churning out a rather thought-provoking discussion with Nekroso22, you're essentially debating the art of debating with thealgebraist at the same time. How can you keep so many thoughts running seperate at once?

Get into enough fights online and it comes naturally.


Well, he shut me down earlier in the thread, just been a quiet spectator since. It's rather odd to admit I've been entertained by the whole thing.


It's simple realy.
People are looking to hard to justify why they should have a new ending.
If you relax and think a bit you will realize that it's all because you don't agree with the writer's style or interpritation.
All this talk of plot holes are desperate attempts to justify oneself, sure they are problems, but inflated due to the anger inspired due to the endings.


I dont think there is much of a problem with justifying oneself, especially if people are going to attack your opinion or even simply ask you what disagree with.

There isn't. But can you honestly say that the first disapointing thing for you when you finished the game were, plot holes?
It sure as hell wasn't for me, for me it was the fact that my Shepard who I've carried this whole way through is dead and the mass relays are gone, meaning no more ME universe.

#281
Piarath

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The Fact: When you merely repeat something, MintyCool, that has already been refuted by logic, reason, and evidence you are merely taking part in a Circular Argument.

The Argument: You already lost it if you're trying to use such 'reasoning' to make your point. Repeat yourself till you're blue in the face (see what I did there?) but until you can actually refute the ovewhelming evidence people have given, everything you say is just plain bupkis; putting a superrior tone on it isn't fooling anyone.

#282
the red boon

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GuretoOnizuka wrote...

We Speak With Our Wallets

www.flickr.com/photos/76143059@N04/6837710858/

lol
I enjoyed that.

#283
panamakira

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Sorry, too lazy to read your wall of text as to why my opinion doesn't matter.

:/

#284
Tzupi88

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Piarath wrote...

The Fact: When you merely repeat something, MintyCool, that has already been refuted by logic, reason, and evidence you are merely taking part in a Circular Argument.

The Argument: You already lost it if you're trying to use such 'reasoning' to make your point. Repeat yourself till you're blue in the face (see what I did there?) but until you can actually refute the ovewhelming evidence people have given, everything you say is just plain bupkis; putting a superrior tone on it isn't fooling anyone.


Good explanation but why go so in depth? Any argument that begins with assuming victory is lost from the get go.

#285
DarkSpiral

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MintyCool wrote...


GBGriffin wrote...

I'm sorry that you wasted your time in typing out a lengthy post, only for it to be skimmed and undoubtedly buried beneath other topics. ;_;

FabricatedWookie wrote...

Don't care

Vasparian wrote...

All I saw was blah blah I am pretentious and condescending.

deathscythe517 wrote...

... you're really just cheerleading for Bioware, and that's what it comes down to isn't it?

Dark Penitant wrote...

I stopped listening.

Pyropedic wrote...

"I enjoyed it, and the reason you didn't is because you're inferior."

Well done.

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Checkmate. Entitled. Winning.

PrettyD3f wrote...

Let the windbag flap in the wind and move on.


---

MintyCool wrote...

You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?

It takes work to be angry; you're intellectually incapable of focusing for a long enough period of time to actually cause change. Most of you are incapable of even reading to this point of the article.

At the moment, the public views you as the political equivalent to the Occupy Wall street crowd. You are a joke. You come up with ridiculous theories that only spook conspirators' would believe; you introduce props and cheap gags like charities that only smudge up your message. You are simply noise.


^


Well, I didn't think i was going to post.  You and Dean are both better at debates than I am, and I don't really disagree with either of you anyway, but I have to admit that you pointing out how accurate your predictions were was funny.

#286
zimm2142

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SLPr0 wrote...

I am not a guaranteed asset. I will not be buying anything further from this company.


This.
I have cancelled all Preorders for EA products, my SWTOR Membership, and donated money to the charity instead.

And it is adoreable how you think your statements carry weight, to run up against a crashing ocean wave is to be crushed, Your not shepard (well, you played him like we did) Peacemakers like that IRL do not exist. 

HOLD THE LINE! 

#287
Deltoran

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Why do people still bother to listen to this Minty guy, this is just another one of his politely worded, at least somewhat thought out insult-and-attempt-to-discredit the retake movement threads. Not sure what he hopes to accomplish by these threads but its a waste of type...and frankly, so is my response.

#288
Geraro

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joshko wrote...

It's simple realy.
People are looking to hard to justify why they should have a new ending.
If you relax and think a bit you will realize that it's all because you don't agree with the writer's style or interpritation.
All this talk of plot holes are desperate attempts to justify oneself, sure they are problems, but inflated due to the anger inspired due to the endings.


Actually I think people are doing exactly what Bioware wanted them to do (at least in part) - debate, discuss, argue and reflect on their emotional response to the game. It's just that the majority of that emotional response seems to be anger.

I have no doubt that the unusual nature of the endings, including apparent plot holes such as squad mates appearing on the normandy, reused footage, and - in particular - the visual hints at indoctrination, are all deliberate on Biowares part. It's this way for a reason, not because they suddenly ran out of budget or got lazy in the final stages of development and couldn't be bothered finishing. The controversy is deliberate - it would have been easy to have a happy ever after ending, an ending where everyone dies and a couple of iterations in between with a few text boxes of epilogue extrapolation.

Bioware either has additional material for the ending planned or they don't (obvious statement is obvious). The loudest BSN protests are unlikely to alter this.  The problem for Bioware seems to be they have either underestimated the need for concrete closure in the majority of their fanbase or they have underestimated the anger that holding onto a cliffhanger ending would generate. 

#289
SandTrout

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Protheans sabotaged the Citadel, which controls the Keepers.

When Sovereign had access to the Citadel, it also had the manual override available to it.

The Reapers didn't have access to the Citadel when it was in orbit around Earth?

#290
joshko

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Geraro wrote...

joshko wrote...

It's simple realy.
People are looking to hard to justify why they should have a new ending.
If you relax and think a bit you will realize that it's all because you don't agree with the writer's style or interpritation.
All this talk of plot holes are desperate attempts to justify oneself, sure they are problems, but inflated due to the anger inspired due to the endings.


Actually I think people are doing exactly what Bioware wanted them to do (at least in part) - debate, discuss, argue and reflect on their emotional response to the game. It's just that the majority of that emotional response seems to be anger.

I have no doubt that the unusual nature of the endings, including apparent plot holes such as squad mates appearing on the normandy, reused footage, and - in particular - the visual hints at indoctrination, are all deliberate on Biowares part. It's this way for a reason, not because they suddenly ran out of budget or got lazy in the final stages of development and couldn't be bothered finishing. The controversy is deliberate - it would have been easy to have a happy ever after ending, an ending where everyone dies and a couple of iterations in between with a few text boxes of epilogue extrapolation.

Bioware either has additional material for the ending planned or they don't (obvious statement is obvious). The loudest BSN protests are unlikely to alter this.  The problem for Bioware seems to be they have either underestimated the need for concrete closure in the majority of their fanbase or they have underestimated the anger that holding onto a cliffhanger ending would generate. 

I agree.
I think that there is merit to the indoctrination theory, though I'm not convinced that bioware wont pull another ending out of the hat.
But if it they leave it as is, well, it's no worse then when I read Brian Herbert's conclusion of Frank Herbert's Dune saga (lol talk about stupid metaphysical endings).

#291
Drak41n

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Mass Effect ended on a strong note. We knew who our enemy was and we knew that humanity had an important role to play in the future. Shepard was vindicated and he stop Saryn. Obstacle conquered, setting defined!

Mass Effect 2 allowed player to have a greater impact on how the story played out, and probably represents what many people expected from Mass Effect 3. In Mass Effect 2, Shepard choices directly impacted how the final mission panned out. Your actions directly determined whether you and your squad survived. In fact, your decisions in Mass Effect 2 determined who would be in Mass Effect 3 and what role they would play. Some outcomes are not possible in Mass Effect 3 based on what you did in Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 had an awesome ending. I was extremely impressed how the writers drew the player into Shepard's sense of accomplishment, depending on how your mission played out.

Mass Effect 3 purported to have a arch-ending where our decisions would have profound consequences. Maybe our decisions did have profound consequences, but we just don't know. The only thing we know is that two of the choices Shepard makes at the very end - synthesis or control - perpetuates the reaper belief that fundamentally different life forms can't co-exist. This conclusion violates one of the over arching themes of the series, and one the that is particularly emphasized in Mass Effect 3. Namely, cooperation and tolerance is possible in spite of differences.

When you destroy all synthetic life forms or you make every life form the same, your homogenize the galaxy. It's easy to tolerate and cooperate when everyone is the same. The message I got from these two endings is that Reapers were right. Tolerance is impossible. That doesn't reconcile with the message that is repeatedly echoed in each game. These are two of the conclusion the writers wanted us to make?

The third choice is no solution at all. It is delaying tactic. Sending the reapers away only to return doesn't break the extinction cycle. How is that a solution? If you take this option Shepard mortgages the future for the present. Another major focus of these series is how shorted sight biological life is, and this choice that represents short sightedness.

The the writers leave us with three option, all of which indicate that no real growth has occurred.  In each instance we either subscribe to Reaper philosophy or we justify their conclusions about life. No lessons are learned, no growth has occurred.  Shepard just dramatically sacrifices himself, but ultimately accomplishes nothing.  It's not even heroic: it's lazy.

These three choices would be fine, great even, if Mass Effect was a nihilistic game that fatalistically embraced that morality and life is arbitrary. That would have been bold if Mass Effect were a nihilistic game, but it wasn't. The choices we were given made me think the writer didn't think very critically about what they were doing.

However, even that's not what really bothers me. What really bothers me is that the writers introduced a new character in the last few minutes of the game. We know practically nothing about this person, yet this character dictates the shape of how the game ends. We aren't given an option to explore this characters rational for his conclusions, we're just suppose to trust that they are correct. All we know is that this person is responsible for the mass extinctions. E.g., the bad guy. And Shepard trusts him implicitly. WHY? Shepard is reduced to the role of frog in the frog and scorpion fable. This person provides us with three choices that are largely arbitrary because the ultimate results are the same. Lots of people die, the mass effect relays are destroyed, and for some inexplicable reason Joker and crew end up stranded on some world.

Why is Joker flying away? How did the crew get to the Normandy? Why did he abandon Shepard? He HAD to abandon Shepard if he took a relay before it exploded. These are just a few of the questions that occurred to me while I watched them happen. Later I wondered what the point of dealing with the genophage or resolving the geth/quarian issue was. We're provided with no clues and no information on how our decision mattered. The writers simply threw all of that stuff out the window.  They did not address it in the slightest.

I think it would be a mistake for the writers to provide complete closure on every issue, but if a selling point of your franchise is that your choices matter, then you have to provide some evidence that major game decisions mattered.  Just telling us that our decisions mattered doesn't magically make it OK to leave it out.  In the absences of any evidence to the contrary, our only conclusion is that our choices didn't matter. It's all arbitrary. Telling a player to just use their imagination is a cope out because you can imagine anything. There is no 3rd party feedback that renders those choices inherently meaningful. It's all just meaningless.  It's natural to be curious about the consequence of what you choose, and it's something the writer just had to anticipate, but chose to ignore.

When Mass Effect 1 ended, we destroyed Saryn and we had a mission: prepare the galaxy for the reapers.

In Mass Effect 2, we destroyed the Collector thread and delayed the Reapers returns, giving the galaxy more time to prepare.

In Mass Effect 3, we destroyed the galaxy as we knew it because some glowly reaper kid told us to. Also, joker and crew somehow magically got away. It's a terrible conclusion. Shepards story is over, and the parts that are directly related to him should have had dealt with.

Modifié par Drak41n, 15 mars 2012 - 05:07 .


#292
Lexagg

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If their goal was to make sure that I no longer buy a single one of their products after a decade of support - yes, they definitely succeeded.

#293
Drak41n

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

thealgebraist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Drak41n wrote...

Expecting an ending that meets the quality of the rest of the franchise is hardly a demand for perfection.

It did meet the quality of the rest of the franchise. That's the problem.


Mass effect 2's ending allowed for a variation to a large extent of who survived, with the added value of those decisions directly impacting the content of the next game. Intellectually and emotionally. Granted it has the advantage of being a set up for a follow. But ME3's endings do not meet the brand standard, because ME2's endings had much much more to offer. In more ways the just the number of dead, which is arbitrarilly the same thing as colour of the beams.

No, that was the Suicide Mission, and a particularly poorly designed one. If we include The Game as a whole, ME3 has its own significant opportunities to get people killed.

In the ending choice setup and conclusion, ME2 came down to two things: a blue explosion or a red explosion.

Neither actually mattered, since Cerberus would go down the exact same path and salvage the exact same Reaper tech for the exact same soldiers for the exact same plot regardless. ME2's ending choice setup was actually one of the worst choices in the series, not only for its horribly unbalanced justification setup beforehand that didn't tie into any repeated themes, but because the entire nadir of the choice got made irrelevant by the Cerberus plot of the post-game.


Whether you gave cerberus the base impacted how Mass Effect 3 ends.  However, the quality of choices in Mass Effect 3 render that particular distinction almost meaningless.

Modifié par Drak41n, 15 mars 2012 - 04:52 .


#294
Area42T

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Oh it's just Mintycool trying to act superior again, I was taking your post seriously for a minute there...moving on.

#295
MintyCool

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Deltoran wrote...

Why do people still bother to listen to this Minty guy, this is just another
one of his politely worded, at least somewhat thought out
insult-and-attempt-to-discredit the retake movement threads. Not sure what he
hopes to accomplish by these threads but its a waste of type...and frankly, so
is my response.


Area42T wrote...

Oh it's just Mintycool trying to act superior again, I was taking your post seriously for a minute there...moving on.


Honestly mate, I'm just posting my perspective about the ending and the saga's legacy overall.

For the most part people have been respectful in posting their views and many times I agree with what they have to say.

If you wish to only read, listen, and hear things, that carry a single opinon/voice; try Fox News or a Church.

I find it healthy there are differing opinions being expressed and this board and this isn't simply a community with a cult-like mentality, that's just me...

Perhaps I should start a charity or create another useless plot conspiracy thread like indoctrination?

Modifié par MintyCool, 15 mars 2012 - 05:03 .


#296
magikbbg

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demin8891 wrote...

So, in other words, what you're saying is this Image IPB





Thats a seagull... just saying.

#297
Lexagg

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MintyCool wrote...

Honestly mate, I'm just posting my perspective about the ending and the
saga's legacy overall.

For the most part people have been super respectful in
posting their views and many times I agree with what they have to say.

If you wish to only read, listen, and hear things that you
agree with try Fox News or a Church.

I find it healthy there are differing opinions being
expressed and this board simply isn't acting a cult-like mentality, that's just
me.  Perhaps I should start a charity or
create another useless plot conspiracy like indoctrination?


What is this "opinions are SACRED" bull****? Opinions are like ****s - everybody has one. Truth is that some opinions are simply worth more than others.

#298
Harbinger of Hope

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Weird, because last time I checked, EA's stock went down .75%. ME3 has already gotten price cuts and game stores are getting flooded with used copies. So, sure, maybe our opinion doesn't matter. But you can bet your ass our money does.

#299
GuretoOnizuka

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Lexagg wrote...

If their goal was to make sure that I no longer buy a single one of their products after a decade of support - yes, they definitely succeeded.



#300
kunzite

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joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

joshko wrote...

kunzite wrote...

Dean_the_Young, I gotta give you credit. Your debate skills are impressive. Not only are you churning out a rather thought-provoking discussion with Nekroso22, you're essentially debating the art of debating with thealgebraist at the same time. How can you keep so many thoughts running seperate at once?

Get into enough fights online and it comes naturally.


Well, he shut me down earlier in the thread, just been a quiet spectator since. It's rather odd to admit I've been entertained by the whole thing.


It's simple realy.
People are looking to hard to justify why they should have a new ending.
If you relax and think a bit you will realize that it's all because you don't agree with the writer's style or interpritation.
All this talk of plot holes are desperate attempts to justify oneself, sure they are problems, but inflated due to the anger inspired due to the endings.


I dont think there is much of a problem with justifying oneself, especially if people are going to attack your opinion or even simply ask you what disagree with.

There isn't. But can you honestly say that the first disapointing thing for you when you finished the game were, plot holes?
It sure as hell wasn't for me, for me it was the fact that my Shepard who I've carried this whole way through is dead and the mass relays are gone, meaning no more ME universe.


Actually, the first disappointing thing for me was the Citadel-spawnchild. I totally expected my Shepard to die (I even have a big long postig in another thread as to why I feel that way). The Mass Relays are gone and people are stranded in one sector.....sorry, I'm a Star Trek fan,a nd having endured Star Trek Voyager....yeah, that didnt terribly bother me *too* much, as I can see all kinds of interesting potential arising from that scenario.