385 réponses à ce sujet

[piemanz]

Tony208 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Geraro wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Minty, while coming across as arrogant and dismissive, actually makes sense in his/her opinions, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

Minty's explanation of why synthesis was the right way to go makes sense in exactly the same way that Saren's arguements did.

Regardless of whether or not you think the endings were crap, synthesis is what the Reapers have been trying to force onto organics throughout the series.

It really does make sense when you stop and think about it. Organic life hits an unavoidable evolutionary plateau when it reaches sapience as evolutionary forces give way to intelligence and ingenuity that allow organics to become the masters of their enviroments. However, synthetics have no evolutionary plateau, they will continue to evolve as technology advances. Just look at the Reapers as an example, they are to us as we are to insects.
If synthetic life is allowed to continue to evolve long enough it is not unreasonable to think that they would eventually come to regard organic life as inferior and unnecessary. Then either through malicious intent or simple indifference destroy all organic life in the Galaxy.

We have never reached that point in our world so all these theories are just theories. What we do know is in the universe of Mass Effect, synthetics can and do get along with organics (EDI, Geth). And the only instance of unwarranted synthetic on organic crime are the Reapers.

But the Reapers beleive the problem exists so what you think or have seen is irrelevant.

[Drak41n]

Except if everyone is the same, there's no need for tolerance at all. It's easy when there is no distinction between geth and quarian. There also isn't a whole lot of reason to believe he's right beyond accepting his word. Remember the boss fight where you kill the reaper with tali and legion? That reaper observes that the conflict in orbit only proves he's right, but he ignores that the conflict occurred because he directed it to. Legion taught use that the geth attacking the organic were being manipulated by the Reapers. the Reapers use very circular reasoning to justify their actions. If bioware wanted to invited the player to subscribe to this conclusion, they needed to not 'humanize' the geth. The geth should have justified the reapers warnings on their own.

[Mallaidh]

Bluntly.  Businesses rely on the good opinion the consumer has of them.  Without a good opinion the consumer will move on.  Therefore the opinion of the consumer does matter.

Modifié par Mallaidh, 15 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[DarkSpiral]

Drak41n wrote...

Except if everyone is the same, there's no need for tolerance at all. It's easy when there is no distinction between geth and quarian. There also isn't a whole lot of reason to believe he's right beyond accepting his word. Remember the boss fight where you kill the reaper with tali and legion? That reaper observes that the conflict in orbit only proves he's right, but he ignores that the conflict occurred because he directed it to. Legion taught use that the geth attacking the organic were being manipulated by the Reapers. the Reapers use very circular reasoning to justify their actions. If bioware wanted to invited the player to subscribe to this conclusion, they needed to not 'humanize' the geth. The geth should have justified the reapers warnings on their own.

The quarians shot first, actually.  The Reaper didn't get involved until later.

[Drak41n]

The reaper don't just believe the problem exists. They're the CAUSE of the problem.

[Tony208]

piemanz wrote...

Tony208 wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Geraro wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Minty, while coming across as arrogant and dismissive, actually makes sense in his/her opinions, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

Minty's explanation of why synthesis was the right way to go makes sense in exactly the same way that Saren's arguements did.

Regardless of whether or not you think the endings were crap, synthesis is what the Reapers have been trying to force onto organics throughout the series.

It really does make sense when you stop and think about it. Organic life hits an unavoidable evolutionary plateau when it reaches sapience as evolutionary forces give way to intelligence and ingenuity that allow organics to become the masters of their enviroments. However, synthetics have no evolutionary plateau, they will continue to evolve as technology advances. Just look at the Reapers as an example, they are to us as we are to insects.
If synthetic life is allowed to continue to evolve long enough it is not unreasonable to think that they would eventually come to regard organic life as inferior and unnecessary. Then either through malicious intent or simple indifference destroy all organic life in the Galaxy.

We have never reached that point in our world so all these theories are just theories. What we do know is in the universe of Mass Effect, synthetics can and do get along with organics (EDI, Geth). And the only instance of unwarranted synthetic on organic crime are the Reapers.

But the Reapers beleive the problem exists so what you think or have seen is irrelevant.

They're a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[piemanz]

Tony208 wrote...

They're a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Kind of,  but they dont see it that way because they beleive they're ascending the organics and destroying the sythetics. They see it more like a galactic reset of thenological advancement.

Modifié par piemanz, 15 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[Xaijin]

Bioware is the RPG equivalent to a popular sports team like the Chicago Bulls. When it comes down to it, and everyone is buying the new Bioware AAA blockbuster; your impulses will give way and your brain will be firing synapses at a constant pace... desperate for that fix

It's cool that you think you know and think what I know and think, and I wanted to see how much irony could be contained in a quote box without breaking it, but this is all i could fit. The likelihood of me buying another Bioware title is very low, and I also no longer spend money on tickets or watch Denver Broncos games, either. So much for your theory.

Modifié par Xaijin, 15 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[Conduit0]

Geraro wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

It really does make sense when you stop and think about it. Organic life hits an unavoidable evolutionary plateau when it reaches sapience as evolutionary forces give way to intelligence and ingenuity that allow organics to become the masters of their enviroments. However, synthetics have no evolutionary plateau, they will continue to evolve as technology advances. Just look at the Reapers as an example, they are to us as we are to insects.
If synthetic life is allowed to continue to evolve long enough it is not unreasonable to think that they would eventually come to regard organic life as inferior and unnecessary. Then either through malicious intent or simple indifference destroy all organic life in the Galaxy.

I agree with the 95% that the lack of closure is crappy but THIS is why BW is clever. Not because they reused footage with different colours for a symbolic ending is symbolic effect, or because they are sitting behind their cones of silence right now, but because they have managed to set up a situation where players have come to competely different logical conclusions based on the same experience.

But back to the debate - you have even used the Reapers own arguments here "Just look at the Reapers as an example, they are to us as we are to insects". If I (or my Shep proxy) thought that synthetic life > organic life I would have finished the conversation with Soverign on Virmire and said "You have totally convinced me guy, you are salvation through destruction. Point me in the direction of your flesh melting tubes and I will do the rest." Why should Shep have an sudden epiphany about the ultimate failure of organic life because Starkid tells him basically the same thing that Sovereign and Harbinger were been banging on about?

In any case, machine logic is unlikely to come to such a conclusion that it is necessary to wipe out all organic life. The geth's decision to stop chasing the Quarians after they fled Rannoch is an example of this machine logic. Once the Quarians no longer threatened them, the Geth let them go as the potential ramifications of wiping out the creator race was uncalculable. Synths may do exactly what the Reapers are doing -> destroy technologically advanced organics as they may pose a threat, but wiping out all organic life is very unlikely to appeal to machine logic which would almost certainly look for a preferable hedge like the Reapers currently do (50K wipeouts) than an absolute destruction.

Sheer survival instinct will cause Shepard to not accept the cycle, and all three options break the cycle, so its not like Shepard is suddenly saying, "Oh, my bad, you were right, go ahead and liquify us."
Also the Geth aren't really a good counter, they had only recently gained sentience as they said, they didn't know what would happen if they wiped out an entire race. A much more advanced form of synthetic life would be able to figure out what would happen. Further, machine logic could simply wipe out organic life through sheer indifference as I said before. As the synthetics continued to spread and multiply they would consume more and more resources. Machine logic would dictate aquiring and processing these resources in the most efficient way possible, which means strip mining and having no regard for the pollution or destruction caused by their activities. After all, rendering a planet uninhabital to organics means nothing to machine logic.

[Xaijin]

2x

Modifié par Xaijin, 15 mars 2012 - 06:53 .

[Auresta]

deleted

Modifié par Auresta, 15 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[Horacio Zhao]

you are indoctrinated

[Geraro]

Conduit0 wrote...

Sheer survival instinct will cause Shepard to not accept the cycle, and all three options break the cycle, so its not like Shepard is suddenly saying, "Oh, my bad, you were right, go ahead and liquify us."
Also the Geth aren't really a good counter, they had only recently gained sentience as they said, they didn't know what would happen if they wiped out an entire race. A much more advanced form of synthetic life would be able to figure out what would happen. Further, machine logic could simply wipe out organic life through sheer indifference as I said before. As the synthetics continued to spread and multiply they would consume more and more resources. Machine logic would dictate aquiring and processing these resources in the most efficient way possible, which means strip mining and having no regard for the pollution or destruction caused by their activities. After all, rendering a planet uninhabital to organics means nothing to machine logic.

Survival instinct? Survival instinct would almost certainly influence Shep to destroy the reapers out of flight or fight response (obviously fight in this case). Choosing to force all organic life into a symbiotic state with synthetics (again this is the Reapers goal from the beginning) would require Shep to truly consider what Starkid is offering and choose synthesis because he/she thought it was the best option. You might be able to convince me that attempting the control the reapers could be a survival instinct response but not synthesis. Choosing synthesis is accepting that organics have no place in the future of the galaxy.

The other problem with your argument is that you assume an advanced AI would be able to figure out what would happen if all organic life is destroyed. As this has never happened before, no facts exist which would help the AI calculate the outcomes. Without a need to destroy all life it is illogical to do so if the outcome is unknown. Machine logic will always prefer known courses of action over unknown. Also the simple harvesting of resources is not a sufficient argument for destruction -> given the size of the galaxy and the fact that the Reapers have already figured out inter-galaxy travel, there is likely to be infinitely more known options for resource gathering before having to harvest the resources of the last garden world in the galaxy.

[die-yng]

To me Shepard is all about beating impossible odds, not one of this so called "three endings" delivers that at all.

No matter how you see it, he/ she loses her/his life, the chance for love, a family, enjoying a more peaceful galaxy with the many friends accumulated over the course of Shepard's adventures etc..

You either, kill the Geth and EDI along with the reapers, lose life, love and all, or you destroy individuality and free choice by fusing synthetic and organic life.

None of this choices gives me any satisfaction, I don't get any closure about what happens to everybody, I get nothing but the same video sequences with different energybeam colours.

No thank you Bioware, but if that's it with Mass Effect, then it's that for me with Bioware games and if enough people think like me, they'll surely notice it where it matters, namely where they earn their money.

[MintyCool]

C Trayne wrote...

so your saying your entirely pleased with the ending and have no further questions that could or should have been answered??
-you were ok that you had no say in anything shepard said to the god child?
-you were ok that no matter what choices you've made in the game u get the same 3 endings?
-you were ok with the normandy and your crew abandoning you for some unknown reason?
-you were ok they end up on some unknown world with no way of leaving?
-you were ok with the fact that the relays are now destroyed and thousands of random species are trapped in our system?

well more power to u then because i know i want some answers

I don't think anyone who creates for others entertainment is ever fully satisfied with the finished product. I know personally when I work on a project; I will spend countless hours trying to perfect every part that I feel needs tinkering. It's that constant cycle of knowing it can be better, but in reality, do all the tweaks really matter? No.

Art/Entertainment is a constant cycle of "good enough's" so you have the chance to work on something new that excites you.

Read the last section of the original post for more.

[SSV Enterprise]

MintyCool wrote...

BP oil, Wells Fargo, Foxxconn, etc.

And you will buy from them again; your game history proves it. Once that day comes and the new AAA title is released, the impulse to buy will overcome your populist/idealist tendencies. You're just not that strong.

Populism/idealism has nothing to do with it.  I got a crap product, and I'm not going to buy again.  It's not like BP where they screwed up but that screw up had nothing to do with the actual quality of their product.  BP would only apply if they sold gasoline that caused my car to explode.  In that case, you can bet I wouldn't buy from them again.  I will have no impulse to buy from BioWare because I wouldn't expect the game I get to be satisfying in the first place.

And yes, I am that strong.  I've boycotted the whole Assassin's Creed series because of the constant-connection DRM on PC, even though I'm quite sure I would enjoy the series.  BioWare would be no different.

Modifié par SSV Enterprise, 15 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[FlameAble_]

I dont even think I made a single post on these forums before the horrible ending. So I am in no way a knowledge addict. Aside from the trailers I wanted to know as little as possible about ME3 before the game came out.

Perhaps BW really does view me as a guaranteed asset, but that will only hurt them. History has shown time and time again that taking your customers for granted is a REALLY!!! bad idea. BW aint that stupid.....I hope : /

[Tedler]

 I'm not going to completely abandon Bioware should they not remedy the ending, nor do I plan to make a funeral pyre and burn all my ME merchandise. However, I most certainly will not be buying any ME3 DLC should the ending remain unchanged. This is not a principled boycott. I simply have no desire to add to a journey that had such a lackluster conclusion. I imagine many of the others dissatisfied with the ending feel the same way, and this will impact Bioware's revenue. Should they create DLC based around the ending, the rabid fanbase will almost certainly buy it in droves--along with any other ME3 DLC released after this. This is sound business strategy.

Also, starting off your argument with "checkmate" is a surefire way to ensure the majority of your audience won't take you seriously.

[Lycius]

MintyCool wrote...

Checkmate: Why in the End Your Opinion Simply Doesn't Matter

Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

The Pleasures of Not Knowing:

If you were a consistent member on the Mass Effect forums between the 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd installments, you would be known as a Knowingness Addict.

You are desperate to consume anything relating to this saga. Whether it be books, comics, etc. When a leak occured or a screenshot was released you would swarm like a pack of cockroaches to analyze it.

During this time you would receive opinions, rants, and raves from others. When hundreds of strangers enter our thoughts, a tiny part of our own self assessment is diminished. You are denying yourself the pleasure of the discovery.

After ME3 was released, what did you do once you finished the tale? More than likely, you went back and either watched the alternative endings on YouTube or replayed alternate paths yourself. Again, fueled only by needing to know everything, desperate to know all other choices one could make.

You ended up learning everything about the man behind the curtain, did you feel better? No, it only fueled your impulses for a more potent fix.

You bend unknowingly to your impulses. You replace others experiences with your own. Under the right conditions, you are prone to losing your individuality by becoming absorbed into a mob mentality. You became part of the Mass Effect Hivemind.

Why In The End Your Opinion Doesn't Matter:

In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset.

View it in the same light as a diehard sports fan that is upset with his popular team; in protest, he decides to not attend any more games. Does ownership care? No. Why? It's because someone else will fill that void with-in seconds, enjoying the game instead of you. Overtime, your willpower will shatter and you'll end up becoming a fan again the next chance you get.

Bioware is the RPG equivalent to a popular sports team like the Chicago Bulls. When it comes down to it, and everyone is buying the new Bioware AAA blockbuster; your impulses will give way and your brain will be firing synapses at a constant pace... desperate for that fix.

You will dance with the devil, and Bioware knows it.

You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?

It takes work to be angry; you're intellectually incapable of focusing for a long enough period of time to actually cause change. Most of you are incapable of even reading to this point of the article. The majority of these people are peers/allies who have joined your cause.

At the moment, the public views you as the political equivalent to the Occupy Wall street crowd. You are a joke. You come up with ridiculous theories that only spook conspirators' would believe; you introduce props and cheap gags like charities that only smudge up your message. You are simply noise.

In the end all of this is great news because; the last 15 minutes of this tale are actually quite good...

Why The Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending.

2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third
addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.

Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality, Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father, Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created.

3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.

4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.

5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.

Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.

Midichlorians anyone? You do not need to know how exactly the force works...

This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived.

You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought.

6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.

I would give you points for trolling, but you could have accomplished it in far fewer words.

[NormanRawn]

The problem is, many of us have used our brains and seen the future in the Mass Effect series as very bleak because of the endings. Imagine our modern society suddenly being cut off from the internet, or cars and aircraft travel. Our infrastructure would not function for an extended period of time.

Now apply that to Mass Effect, the galaxy has built up an entire empire and infrastructure based around the mass relays, and now they are gone. So now the ability for supplies to get to planets where there needed is now gone. And people from all races are now trapped on planets all over the galaxy not able to get home.

So what good is being a synthetic/organic being if you have to fight for survival against the people standing next to you for the necessities of life?

You can make an interesting ending regarding synthesis all you want, but BioWare and you for that matter, are short sided, the Mass Effect galaxy may never recover from what the crucible did.

Its not that I want all anwsers to this universe, I just wanted an ending that didn't leave you thinking they just doomed the franchise past the Reaper war.

Modifié par NormanRawn, 15 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[MintyCool]

Awesomesaur wrote...

i know Mintycool, he's a good friend of mine and still is. we are in vent practically every day  he does believe what he says...

Sup sexy welcome to the boards.

It's like, Sur'Kesh out there...

[Rafe34]

Anyone who accepts the three endings at the end as real are giving in to the *leader of the Reapers* if they then choose one. How can you justify doing what the enemy wants you to do, simply on the basis of him telling you those are your only options?

[Vlta]

This guy is Bioware's big defender then? Guess some people really do have blind loyalty to a game company.

[MintyCool]

Vlta wrote...

This guy is Bioware's big defender then? Guess some people really do have blind loyalty to a game company.

Or some people just choose to not to lose their sense of self and discuss the plot like human beings instead of joining the cult-like hivemind that exists on the boards right now...

Some of us are just intellectually superior to others.

Checkmate.

[xeNNN]

MintyCool wrote...

C Trayne wrote...

so your saying your entirely pleased with the ending and have no further questions that could or should have been answered??
-you were ok that you had no say in anything shepard said to the god child?
-you were ok that no matter what choices you've made in the game u get the same 3 endings?
-you were ok with the normandy and your crew abandoning you for some unknown reason?
-you were ok they end up on some unknown world with no way of leaving?
-you were ok with the fact that the relays are now destroyed and thousands of random species are trapped in our system?

well more power to u then because i know i want some answers

I don't think anyone who creates for others entertainment is ever fully satisfied with the finished product. I know personally when I work on a project; I will spend countless hours trying to perfect every part that I feel needs tinkering. It's that constant cycle of knowing it can be better, but in reality, do all the tweaks really matter? No.

Art/Entertainment is a constant cycle of "good enough's" so you have the chance to work on something new that excites you.

Read the last section of the original post for more.

there is a difference between creating a product that a customers a never fully satisfied with and creating a product that destroys the franchise that company created.  

yeah customers will never be fully satisfied not everybody likes or hates everything but when a large sizable amount of people come out and say "yeah you screwed up big time" then its a problem and that means you've created a product thats not just midly distasteful but youve actually "pissed off" a large number of customers in a short ammount of time, in this case 5 minutes.