385 réponses à ce sujet

[Deklan_Caine]

MintyCool wrote...

You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?

Um, not true. If anything, it's accelerating. When I "liked" the Facebook page calling for a new ending, there were about than 6,000 people who had "liked" it. As of 9:03 PM CST on 3/14/11, the page now has 28,094 "likes". By sometime tomorrow, even if the growth rate is halved, it will cross 35,000. And just in the time it's taken me to write this, it's grown another 20 likes...

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dkear1 wrote...

Again we are both arguing semantics.  Companies do have to listen to customers or they go under.  The degree  that they react on that is a fine line that is difficult to walk.  This is why 3/4 of businesses fail.  It is hard.

Sure, but the standard that started this wasn't striking a balance: it was a desire for slavish obedience.

Artists do have produce art that someone will buy.  Sure there are lots of directions one can go but at the end of the day it all comes back to getting a sale.  I don't view games as art because the are a mass produced product.  To me that seperates things.  Of course it is only my opinion and others are free to disagree.

Strongly, given that paintings, literature, cinema, music, and more physical arts are also mass-produced products.

Again what qualifies as "art" is really just an opinion.

[Lankist]

I don't have to pay anybody $60 for the pleasure of not knowing.

Modifié par Lankist, 15 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[Isichar]

Sorry OP but your wrong, try again

[Dean_the_Young]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

" it was a desire for slavish obedience."

The mentality of blaming the consumer for not liking a product that pissed off most of the people who finished it is pretty backwards. Bioware is not our slaves, just as we are not slaves to like any middle finger they throw in our faces given the advertising of the game and themes in this game and the prior ones.

"
You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?"

Are we on the same forum?

"
And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?"

That's not ME3.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

dkear1 wrote...


Again what qualifies as "art" is really just an opinion.

Sure. What qualifies for mass-produced isn't, though, and if your disqualification for something from being art is that it is commercially motivated and produced in volume, you've just described everything from Rhianna to Bethovan.

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

?????????? Then it makes money and gets accolades.......hello........

[sircaren]

Still holding the line tyvm

[GuardianAngel470]

piemanz wrote...

It has nothing to do with facts. They want happy endings.

My perfect ending involves the sacrifice of Earth and in most cases (except the very hard to achieve) the death of Shepard.

Fans have a comprehensive list of their complaints, it can be found here.

You can technically say that all of those complaints are window dressing on the real desire for a happy ending, but then you would be making an essentially baseless assumption about a very diverse group of people. Hardcore fans they may be, their politics, personal convictions, behavior, motivations, and methods of operation are often wildly different.

Unless you've conducted an anthropological study that has a statistically accurate sample size and variety in which you found that all anyone wants is a happy ending, I hereby, until further notice, deem your statement illogical.

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dkear1 wrote...


Again what qualifies as "art" is really just an opinion.

Sure. What qualifies for mass-produced isn't, though, and if your disqualification for something from being art is that it is commercially motivated and produced in volume, you've just described everything from Rhianna to Bethovan.

Never said art can't be mass produced.  Did say that it is only an opinion.

Rhianna as art...........OH MY..............walks away

[Fjordgnu]

Yeah, I can totally see it. Mac Walters sick and tired of a plot that makes sense just goes ( and this must be read with a German accent for full effect ):

"This Mass Effect, so hack! It's a hack job, this script that makes sense. All the fans, so concerned with closure, with an ending. I give them a god-child, I'll be remembered forever. I don't even give the god-child a script. Just let the universe flow through you, let the art speak through you, say what comes to mind. This is true art! Not like that reductionist hack Karpyshyn!"

[Dean_the_Young]

PKchu wrote...

" it was a desire for slavish obedience."

The mentality of blaming the consumer for not liking a product that pissed off most of the people who finished it is pretty backwards. Bioware is not our slaves, just as we are not slaves to like any middle finger they throw in our faces given the advertising of the game and themes in this game and the prior ones.

Unless your name is kunzite and you're sock-puppeting a second account, in which case you should be ashamed and should stop, any anger you are feeling is entirely of your own creation since no one else here was suggesting or accusing you of such.

"
And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?"

That's not ME3.

That's precisely ME3, which even most of the detractors agree was an amazing game until the last five minutes.

Which, of even a 15-hour playthrough rushed, is barely over 1.6% of the product.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

You make a valid point, but the OP didn't make the argument that people were overreacting to what amounts to a tiny fraction of the whole, he argued that all grievances are invalid because the ending is perfectly fine. 

[Dean_the_Young]

dkear1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

?????????? Then it makes money and gets accolades.......hello........

You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?

ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

You make a valid point, but the OP didn't make the argument that people were overreacting to what amounts to a tiny fraction of the whole, he argued that all grievances are invalid because the ending is perfectly fine. 

Very true. However I am not the OP, nor am I arguing in defense of the OP, so what?

[Madecologist]

joshko wrote...

You do make some compelling arguments. Especially about the knowledge digging types.
They do tend to take the story on themselves so to speak and forget that they are not the ones telling the tale.

But, I disagree with you on the point of the ending.

The ending was too big, too philosophical if you will. The whole series is simple, the Reapers are coming, get your act together or die. That's it, and all other other choices, romances, and stuff are just fluff. Not one in the series is Shepard conflicted as to his ultimate goal. Not once do his companions question the urgency of the mission over all.
Simple, plane with pretty trappings.
And then your throw in a bunch of metaphysical nonsense that goes against the whole theme of the game? No thank you.

Basically you are playing Mass Effect, and suddenly land in Final Fantasy.

Heck even FF would have handled it better (aside from the theme being present in the whole game). the party would argue what to do and then feminine male or masuline female protagonist will make the final choice for you and the story will probably offer some closure to boot.

It is strange, but choosing to support the Quarian or Geth was a better choice (even if you unlocked reconcile), deciding to cure the Genophage or carrying out the secret plan of the Salarian government was a better choice. Heck siding with Martial Law C-Sec officer or the let's keep doing our job officer was a better delimna. The reason why is all of these were well within the scope of the ME universe and theme.

[Marta Rio II]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

"Overwhelmingly satisfactory" is a pretty backhanded compliment, I'd say.  I think I'm on to you, Dean .

[UnbornLeviathan]

When I think of Bioware, I think of the company that went from 'The producers of SWToR and the Mass Effect 3 franchise" to "those ****s that kicked me in the dick after 5 years of being a loyal customer." and that will always come to mind when I see their name on a product, or any of EA's products, from now on.

[Dean_the_Young]

dkear1 wrote...
Never said art can't be mass produced.  Did say that it is only an opinion.

You also said you didn't consider it art because it was mass produced, and gave no other reason. If you opinion does not stand on its own, it is flawed.

Rhianna as art...........OH MY..............walks away

It might not be classy, but she is an artist. To deny it is to reject pretty much all cultural products.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"Unless your name is kunzite and you're sock-puppeting a second account, in which case you should be ashamed and should stop, any anger you are feeling is entirely of your own creation since no one else here was suggesting or accusing you of such.."

What? Seriously, I can't follow anything you say.

Were you not describing the movement to get the ending changed as motivated by slave like expectations? Perhaps I can't read. I'm not trying to be obstinate. You seem intelligent, I just disagree with you about a lot of things. 

"That's precisely ME3, which even most of the detractors agree was an amazing game until the last five minutes.

Which, of even a 15-hour playthrough rushed, is barely over 1.6% of the product."

Right, which taints the entire series and makes people feel terrible after it's over. I'm sure you've seen this complaint be made before. That 1.6% does a lot of damage, like any really bad ending can.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Marta Rio II wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Yet another "art trumps promises made" thread?? That's all that we could come up with?? Playing devil's advocate even if I wildly misinterpreted the promises I would still fault any company that seems this out of touch with their core group of fans. Simply if you don't deliver a satisfying product then this sort of reaction is exactly what you should expect.

And what about a product most people agree was overwhelmingly satisfactory?

"Overwhelmingly satisfactory" is a pretty backhanded compliment, I'd say.  I think I'm on to you, Dean .

Only in the same sense that 'almost perfect' is calling someone terrible, or 'nearly ideal' is horrid.

[piemanz]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

piemanz wrote...

It has nothing to do with facts. They want happy endings.

My perfect ending involves the sacrifice of Earth and in most cases (except the very hard to achieve) the death of Shepard.

Fans have a comprehensive list of their complaints, it can be found here.

You can technically say that all of those complaints are window dressing on the real desire for a happy ending, but then you would be making an essentially baseless assumption about a very diverse group of people. Hardcore fans they may be, their politics, personal convictions, behavior, motivations, and methods of operation are often wildly different.

Unless you've conducted an anthropological study that has a statistically accurate sample size and variety in which you found that all anyone wants is a happy ending, I hereby, until further notice, deem your statement illogical.

Yea, I was generalising mostly.

But the real problem is that theres so many different reasons people don't like the ending that there can't possibly be an ending that everyone will like.

What about the people that liked the ending as it is, as it was intended?

Modifié par piemanz, 15 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[kunzite]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]PKchu wrote...

" it was a desire for slavish obedience."

The mentality of blaming the consumer for not liking a product that pissed off most of the people who finished it is pretty backwards. Bioware is not our slaves, just as we are not slaves to like any middle finger they throw in our faces given the advertising of the game and themes in this game and the prior ones.[/quote]Unless your name is kunzite and you're sock-puppeting a second account, in which case you should be ashamed and should stop, any anger you are feeling is entirely of your own creation since no one else here was suggesting or accusing you of such.


[quote]

[/quote]

Excuse me? I am not sock-puppeting a second account. Why so aggressive?