385 réponses à ce sujet

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?
ME3.

Only time will tell on this one.  Sure it made money out of the gate.  But until the returns and lost sales if they don't fix the game are computed then the jury is still out. 

As for accolades........nope.  High marks from game sites that are indirectly paid........sorry little bit suspect there.
Again, time will tell.  If it wins GOTY then I will be shocked.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?

"ME3."

In the short term? Sure. Long term this is going to backfire badly. This isn't a good thing for Bioware.

DA2 got good reviews in the press, Bioware ended up owning up to the fact it wasn't all that hot.

[themaltaproject]

I love how you added my exact thoughts comparing people on here to the occupy movement. However, you in yourself are trying to navigate up the stream of this mob. While I agree with you, OP, no one is going to like this post in this forum section, and you are going to get hostility over it.

You knew that already, though.

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It might not be classy, but she is an artist. To deny it is to reject pretty much all cultural products.

Again with an assumption that your opinion of art is somehow universal truth.  Sorry it isn't.  She IS a singer, but an artist......no I disagree.  She pumps out crap I wouldn't play to my worst enemy.  Call her an artist in your opinion but please don't try to speak for me. 

[Dean_the_Young]

PKchu wrote...

What? Seriously, I can't follow anything you say.

The only person referred to as wanting slavish-obedience was kuznite. If you are not kuznite, then it does not apply to you.

Were you not describing the movement to get the ending changed as motivated by slave like expectations?

No. If you are not kuznite, then it does not apply to you.

Perhaps I can't read. I'm not trying to be obstinate. You seem intelligent, I just disagree with you about a lot of things.

Not really.

If you are not kuznite- alright, I'll stop that.

Right, which taints the entire series and makes people feel terrible after it's over. I'm sure you've seen this complaint be made before. That 1.6% does a lot of damage, like any really bad ending can.

Besides the artistic weight of catharsis, you're side-stepping the point and the context, ie that ME3 is not evidence that Bioware is horribly out of touch with consumer desires as proven by the ending. If it was, people wouldn't have loved the other 98.4%, which any reasonable person should be able to concede is the greater part of the game.


As it is, most people are just going through the same things that a number of Cerberus fans went through as the Cerberus plot-clay was re-cast. The main difference is that Cerberus fans got a few monthes head-start.

[Dean_the_Young]

dkear1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It might not be classy, but she is an artist. To deny it is to reject pretty much all cultural products.

Again with an assumption that your opinion of art is somehow universal truth.  Sorry it isn't.  She IS a singer, but an artist......no I disagree.  She pumps out crap I wouldn't play to my worst enemy.  Call her an artist in your opinion but please don't try to speak for me. 

You speak well enough for yourself in disregarding cultural products you don't like. I'm not the one making the position, you are.

It just happens that your position is wildly out of synch with, well, actual and widely understood standards of what consittute art. Including the fact that not liking something doesn't mean its not Art.

[Halberd96]

Its funny because people are calling the OP snobby and rude yet they are being hypocritical because we all know how snarky and rude the Bioware community is lol.

(HEY THAT PERSON LIKED DA 2 LETS INSULT HIM AND ACT SUPERIOR)

EDIT: Okay so I'm just reading this thread and people are saying that ME 3 was a commercial failure?

What?

I swear, you guys should be grateful that the ME 3 developers and forum moderators put up with you at all...

I fail to see how ME 3 is a commercial failure.

Modifié par Halberd96, 15 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"If you are not kuznite- alright, I'll stop that."

OK. I misread then. My mistake.

"Besides the artistic weight of catharsis, you're side-stepping the point and the context, ie that ME3 is not evidence that Bioware is horribly out of touch with consumer desires as proven by the ending. If it was, people wouldn't have loved the other 98.4%, which any reasonable person should be able to concede is the greater part of the game."

I still don't think a high quantity of good content can justify a severely bad ending that violates many of the series themes and fan's expectations. Everyone is human and makes mistakes: I believe Bioware made one here. They also probably are (or were) confident in their own ending and are out of touch in the sense of being defensive of their creation, as some of their earlier tweets implied.

I loved most of the game, I hated what the end meant of the universe and the characters I liked. It influences my whole perspective of everything I did in Mass Effect and everything that happens. The end is like this black lens over the past.

Modifié par PKchu, 15 mars 2012 - 02:30 .

[Drak41n]

I see your point. However, mass effect is primarily a story. Stories aren't usually compartmentalized. An otherwise good story can be sabotaged with a bad ending just like how a poor story isn't saved by a good ending. It's a journey and the destination is important. You can't just point at a given chapter and say "yes, yes the story has flaws, but this chapter is good." and use that to refute the readers legitimate concerns.

[piemanz]

It doesn't violate any themes, if anything it strengthens the themes.

[Dean_the_Young]

PKchu wrote...

"You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?

"ME3."

In the short term? Sure. Long term this is going to backfire badly. This isn't a good thing for Bioware.

In the long term, ME3 is going to be remembered as a great game that got gigged for ending the trilogy in the same way that it had ended every game in the trilogy.

ME3 is also going to be a case study for the industry of how to do carry-over consequences in-gameplay correctly, design and implementation of morality systems, and the realization that a lot of people will accept great amounts of tragedy in the body of the work itself.

DA2 got good reviews in the press, Bioware ended up owning up to the fact it wasn't all that hot.

Bioware also ended up owning up to the fact that there were plenty of good, praise-worthy things about it. Some consumers even were willing to concede it wasn't all bad, those that weren't fighting with eachother over what exactly was wrong with it.

(A list, mind you, that isn't going to match with Bioware's take-aways of needs-improves.)

[Madecologist]

What I think is funny, is there is a lot of people that don't think BW should change the ending but still hate the endings. 

My friend thinks the endings sucks, and will be leary of future products from BW (but has already been awhile to be honest).

Some people liked the endings, but I think most did not like them. Exact proportions don't matter, my point is something else. Out of those, most probably don't care, they pop ME3 out and then pop AC in and play that. Others are upset and make a mental note that they will be skeptical of BW games (they are not as good as they used to be). Some might just give up on the product altogether, they won't ask for a change and 'respect' artistic liscence but still excercise comsumer judgement in the harshest possible way.

Now you do have a group that want the ending fixed. I think the main difference between this group and the one I just mentioned before is that the latter still want to stay with the product. Assuming there is no fix, they will have to make a choice that the others have already made on how they will react to their disastisfaction.

Modifié par Madecologist, 15 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[Nobrandminda]

 Here's the thing OP:

You utterly failed to describe me while setting up your "Checkmate."

I came to these forums for the first time a few days ago and it was to express my displeasure at the ending to Mass Effect 3.  I am not a garenteed asset.

But I think I know where you're coming from.  Like you, I've watched so called "boycotts" of games shrivel up and die when the game was released, and I've laughed at the weak will of so many gamers.  I remember seeing one screenshot from a Steam group called "Boycott Modern Warfare 2 because it doesn't have dedicated servers."  Guess which game everyone in the group was playing?  Or there are the people who wanted to boycott Starcraft 2 because of the lack of lan support.

But here is the difference between those examples and what's happening here:  the ending to Mass Effect 3 kills any desire to play Mass Effect.  That's been my reaction to it, and I know I'm not alone in saying that.  I have been physically unable to pick up the game since reaching the so called conclusion to ME3.  

So don't be fooled by toothless "boycotts" of the past.  Game developers can take away useful features, they can make their games less accessable, and they can bury their games in as much DRM and corporate bull**** as they want, but that won't stop people from wanting to play their games.  

I don't want to play Mass Effect 4 or Mass Effect 3 DLC.  It's not principle.  It's not a boycott.  It's not even a hard decision.  It's just my natural reaction to their product.

Modifié par Nobrandminda, 15 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

PKchu wrote...

"If you are not kuznite- alright, I'll stop that."

OK. I misread then. My mistake.

"Besides the artistic weight of catharsis, you're side-stepping the point and the context, ie that ME3 is not evidence that Bioware is horribly out of touch with consumer desires as proven by the ending. If it was, people wouldn't have loved the other 98.4%, which any reasonable person should be able to concede is the greater part of the game."

I still don't think a high quantity of good content can justify a severely bad ending that violates many of the series themes and fan's expectations. Everyone is human and makes mistakes: I believe Bioware made one here. They also probably are (or were) confident in their own ending and are out of touch in the sense of being defensive of their creation, as some of their earlier tweets implied.

I loved most of the game, I hated what the end meant of the universe and the characters I liked. It influences my whole perspective of everything I did in Mass Effect and everything that happens. The end is like this black lens over the past.

"Besides the artistic weight of catharsis, you're side-stepping the
point and the context, ie that ME3 is not evidence that Bioware is
horribly out of touch with consumer desires as proven by the ending. If
it was, people wouldn't have loved the other 98.4%, which any reasonable
person should be able to concede is the greater part of the game."

Bolded since you side-stepped the point and the context of what you are quoting.

[dkear1]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dkear1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It might not be classy, but she is an artist. To deny it is to reject pretty much all cultural products.

Again with an assumption that your opinion of art is somehow universal truth.  Sorry it isn't.  She IS a singer, but an artist......no I disagree.  She pumps out crap I wouldn't play to my worst enemy.  Call her an artist in your opinion but please don't try to speak for me. 

You speak well enough for yourself in disregarding cultural products you don't like. I'm not the one making the position, you are.

It just happens that your position is wildly out of synch with, well, actual and widely understood standards of what consittute art. Including the fact that not liking something doesn't mean its not Art.

Actually liking or not liking is exactly what defines Art.  If I take a dump on my lawn and call it art, is it art?  Who gets to make this distinction? 

Oh and saying I disregard "cultural products"???????????????  WTF......I do need some of the stuff you are smoking cause it has to be the bomb.  Rhianna and her crap music is not a cultural product.  Present stuff that actually makes at least a portion of sense.

Methinks you are the one that is out of touch and just came here to troll.  Have fun with that.

[kunzite]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

PKchu wrote...

What? Seriously, I can't follow anything you say.

The only person referred to as wanting slavish-obedience was kuznite. If you are not kuznite, then it does not apply to you.

Were you not describing the movement to get the ending changed as motivated by slave like expectations?

No. If you are not kuznite, then it does not apply to you.

Perhaps I can't read. I'm not trying to be obstinate. You seem intelligent, I just disagree with you about a lot of things.

Not really.

If you are not kuznite- alright, I'll stop that.

Right, which taints the entire series and makes people feel terrible after it's over. I'm sure you've seen this complaint be made before. That 1.6% does a lot of damage, like any really bad ending can.

Besides the artistic weight of catharsis, you're side-stepping the point and the context, ie that ME3 is not evidence that Bioware is horribly out of touch with consumer desires as proven by the ending. If it was, people wouldn't have loved the other 98.4%, which any reasonable person should be able to concede is the greater part of the game.


As it is, most people are just going through the same things that a number of Cerberus fans went through as the Cerberus plot-clay was re-cast. The main difference is that Cerberus fans got a few monthes head-start.

Slavish obedience? Really? I dont recall asking anyone to be my slave. I do believe that if a company, entity, or person creates a product aimed towards a client, then the client should have the right to expect a certain level of quality to that product, and that client should have the right to hold such entity to said level of quality. Nothing about slavery there.

[GhengisTom]

[quote]MintyCool wrote...

Checkmate: Why in the End Your Opinion Simply Doesn't Matter [/quote]

Why shouldn't our opinion matter? Right now the "disgruntled gamer" is the masses. We invested money into Bioware by buying their game(s) for their storytelling abilities which were 99.9% epic and that 0.1% fatal to the entire ordeal. Not knowing you I wouldn't be able to come up with an effective analogy, but the fact that these "endings" were dished out gives the appearance of "we're going to throw random things together and hope they work."

[quote]The Pleasures of Not Knowing:

If you were a consistent member on the Mass Effect forum niche boards between the 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd installments, you would be known as a Knowingness Addict.

You are desperate to read everything about this series, books, comics, etc. When a leak occurs or every time a screenshot was released you would swarm like a pack of cockroaches to analyze it.

During this time you would receive opinion, rants, and raves from others. When hundreds of strangers enter our thoughts, a tiny part of our own self assessment is diminished. You are denying yourself the pleasure of the discovery. [/quote]

I wasn't.

I'm not.

I'm not so sure about that. Considering my own self assessment of the end of the game was me sitting for 30 minutes trying to decide which of the three crappy endings I was going to choose. With the explanation given to me in game by the ethereal looking child I knew that none of them were going to be good and was completely flabbergasted when I did choose because it was worse than I thought. I didn't need forums to pose the question in my mind of "why in the hell was Joker flying away with my crew?"

[quote]
After ME3 was released, what did you do once you finished the tale? You most likely went back and either watched the alternative endings on YouTube or replayed them yourself. Again, fueled by needing to know everything, desperate to know all other choices one could make.

You learned everything about the man behind the curtain, you feel better? Most likely it only fueled your impulses for more.

You bend unknowingly to your impulses. You replace others experiences with your own. Under the right conditions, you are prone to losing your individuality and becoming absorbed into a mob mentality. You became part of the Mass Effect Hivemind.[/quote]

You act like you know me or the general population in a detailed manner. Yes, I did go back and re-do the ending only to get a slightly varied, just as crappy end. It's not about needing to know everything, it's about needing to know my time wasn't wasted. At this juncture I can certainly assess that it was. It wasn't about learning about "the man behind the curtain" as if the endings were better I would have started a second playthrough right away and gotten a different ending anyway simply for the different experiences.

That last bit just sounds like trolling as you, again, have no idea about mine or many other people's motives, feelings or overall thoughts about their experiences with the game(s) so to assume anything such as "replacing ones experiences for anothers" or "losing your individuality" is feigning omnipotence.

[quote]Why In The End Your Opinion Doesn't Matter:

In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset.[/quote]

I'm sure they do, and if they do view me and others that way they will understand where we are coming from in thinking they royally screwed up.

[quote]View it in the same light as a diehard sports fan that is upset about his popular team, and in protest decides to not attend any games. Does ownership care? No. Why? It's because someone else will fill that void with-in seconds, enjoying the game instead of you. Overtime your willpower will shatter and you'll end up becoming a fan the next chance you get.

Bioware is the RPG equivalent to a popular sports team like the Chicago
Bulls. When it comes down to it, and everyone is buying the new Bioware
AAA blockbuster; your impulses will give way and your brain will be
firing  synapses at a constant pace... desperate needing that fix.

You will dance with the devil, and Bioware knows it. [/quote]

I hardly see that as a fitting example. The owner can't completely influence how the team does and therefore can't compare to this scenario where Bioware had the reigns on the direction of the ending the whole time. As for willpower shattering, maybe some will but my resolve is solid. If this is how it goes down, Bioware has completely lost my interest and won't get anymore of my money. Yeah, someone might fill my void temporarily, but eventually (especially with this much bad press) Bioware's reputation will become damaged due to the poor decisions made. I don't care about the fact that the ME series is at it's "close", but what is cared about is the fact that the endings seem to be thrown together filled with plot holes.


[quote]
You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?[/quote]

My guess is that people are waiting for an official response of some kind. I highly doubt that people have truely gone from "Man, this was completely bogus" to "Man, I can't wait to buy the next Bioware game".

[quote]It takes work to be angry; you're intellectually incapable of focusing for a long enough period to actually cause change. Most of you are incapable of even reading to this point of this article. The majority of these people are peers/allies apart of your cause.

At the moment, the public views you as the political equivalent to the Occupy Wall street crowd. You are a joke. You come up with ridiculous theories that only spook conspirators' would believe; you introduce props and cheap gags like charities that only smudge up your message. You are simply noise.
[/quote]

Underhanded insulting eh? Ad hominem much?

[quote]In the end all of this is great news because; the last 15 minutes of this tale are actually quite good...[/quote]

So you accept the endings, plot holes and all. Good for you. But your opinion doesn't negate others.

[quote]Why The Ending Works:

1. Shepard, war torn and exhausted, leaped into the crucibles energy source sacrificing his life to intertwine existences between synthetics and organics.

A few hours ago, this is how my tale ended after five years of Mass Effect; and I was quite satisfied with the ending. [/quote]

Good for you.

[quote]2. The writing team behind Mass Effect 3 was able to elevate the narrative premise by weaving a philosophical debate about the relationship between organic and synthetic coexistence. The entire story throughout the third
addition is laced with the ideas of life, harmony, and self preservation.

More than ever, the story has morphed into a game about big themes and big ideas.
Just some of the thoughts explored throughout this game...

EDI
and free will, Synthetic dominance, Lineage, Genophage, Causality,
Geth/quarian conflict, Determinism, Legacy - Miranda's father,
Synchronicity and Kaiden, False Theology-Asari Prothean Gods, personal
fulfillment, etc.

Compared to the previous installments that may
have skimmed over some of these topics, all the philosophical and
sociological debates/conflicts in this iteration have the main goal of
bolstering the main theme of Mass Effect 3,

The existence of The Creators vs. The Created. [/quote]

Yes, they did do that and it was alright as I don't mind a good question to think about (organic vs synthetic), but it doesn't negate that the ending seemed quite hokey and full of holes.


[quote]3. Two camps are formed because of this instance. The story the writers wish to tell, and the fans who feel entitled to observe the story they themselves envisioned.

The writers, it seems, realized the message that they wanted people to take from this third installment. This had the team shifting the narrative focus to a more elevated dynamic.

The coexistence of Synthetics vs. Organics.[/quote]

As a writer myself, of course I have my own ideas and thoughts when writing, but my ultimate goal is to tell a story that people will enjoy. Now give that power to Bioware, who up until the end of ME3 was doing a fantastic job at 2 things, storytelling and letting you direct that storytelling to a degree, and then give them the power to throw the whole thing out the window for a moment of "this is the point I want to get across", even though it screws up the overall story of Mass Effect.

[quote]4. To this end, Mass Effect 3 succeeds in weaving a narrative from beginning to end. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Philosophical themes trounce the Neanderthal-dopamine induced urges
people wish to see in this addition. Especially in the end game where
this theme becomes the stories main focal point.

Honestly is a cameo appearance from Wrex for the 50th time really going to add anything to the finality of this story? No.[/quote]

That whole "to say otherwise is disingenuous" comment again reaks of you thinking you know who each of us are and how we think. Do I think that Bioware did a great job of storytelling? Yes, right up until the end.


[quote]5. Unfortunately I find a Star Wars Syndrome happening with this series. A fan base digesting every bit of corn fructose they can gulp down. Needing everything to be spelled out; desperate to know every last bit of information.[/quote]

So people can be a little enthusiastic about a story they like? At least we aren't putting on "Team Tali" or "Team Liara" shirts. For me it's not about a Star Wars syndrome. It's about me having spend a good amount of time supporting Bioware only to feel violated at the end and wanting real closure.

[quote]Why must one need to see Tali's face? Why do we need to know a detailed history of the Protheans? How come we need to see the Rachni and Krogan attack the enemy? Isn't the struggle of loss and war already inferred multiple times throughout the story? The focus of the end game is obviously being developed on a much deeper/different theme.[/quote]

So keep the deeper theme. That doesn't negate the fact that back stories (ME1 and ME2) and the attachments you made as Shepard with your teams plays a very real part in why people play. If the game didn't have likeable/loveable characters would it really be worth playing? If the game didn't have back story would you be as invested in the main story?


[quote]This desperate need to dig up plot holes and inconsistencies from the hard core is entirely unhealthy for the series and its fans. All stories have inconsistencies, stories you tell to your friends are punched up exaggerations of what really happened. Your Facebook account is not a mirror image of the life you lead, but the life you wish you lived. [/quote]

Digging up plot holes? If anyone did any digging it wasn't very hard. In fact I found one without picking up my mental shovel when Joker flew the hell away with my crew and crashed on some jungle planet while Shepard died and blew up all of the relays.

[quote]You had the chance to say goodbye to the entire main cast in one way or another. Multiple times is it mentioned/inferred that all races are about to battle the Reapers.

Needing to know a detailed resolution of what happens to everyone in the galaxy only dilutes the escapist reality the writers created.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Less is more and allowing the mind to explore possibilities is one of the great strengths of human thought. [/quote]

Yes, and there was always the though in my mind that Shepard would actually die this time, and I was alright with that. Until they did it they ended it the way they did. As for detailed resolution...read up. Time. Invested. Attachments. While I agree it's great to use your imagination, less is not always more.

[quote]6. In the end, it would seem the Bioware writing team effectively succeeded in what they wanted to say in the Mass Effect saga. This is something I can respect. Instead of appeasing to the vocal mob; they finished the story on their own terms.

Mass Effect became a tale about cultural synthesis. The Mass Effect team was finally able to find this series a voice. Knowing this, makes me content that I have finished this series in its entirety in the way it was meant to be seen.

And I enjoyed every minute of it.

[/quote]

Hmm...alright. You're fine with it, no worries. That's your opinion. Others have different opinions and thoughts and a number of us were dissatisfied.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"In the long term, ME3 is going to be remembered as a great game that got gigged for ending the trilogy in the same way that it had ended every game in the trilogy."

I respectfully disagree, I think ME3 will mostly be remembered for the gut punch at the end and the feelings of betrayal a lot felt.

"ME3 is also going to be a case study for the industry of how to do carry-over consequences in-gameplay correctly, design and implementation of morality systems, and the realization that a lot of people will accept great amounts of tragedy in the body of the work itself."

This is true: I don't argue ME and the ME series did a lot of things right up until the end.

"Bioware also ended up owning up to the fact that there were plenty of good, praise-worthy things about it. Some consumers even were willing to concede it wasn't all bad, those that weren't fighting with eachother over what exactly was wrong with it."

The point is that I feel you're making out this whole "ending fiasco" to be less of a deal then it really is.

[dkear1]

jreezy wrote...

dkear1 wrote...

As for accolades........nope.  High marks from game sites that are indirectly paid........sorry little bit suspect there.
Again, time will tell.  If it wins GOTY then I will be shocked.

Yup. Like it or not. You can't change the definition of accolade on a whim.

Sorry but I don't define an indirectly paid advertisement an accolade.  Now if it wins GOTY......yep that would qualify.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

"Bolded since you side-stepped the point and the context of what you are quoting."

OK. I agree with this.

I don't think we're actually arguing over much and I'm a ship passing your ship in the night. :V I

[Dean_the_Young]

Drak41n wrote...

I see your point. However, mass effect is primarily a story. Stories aren't usually compartmentalized. An otherwise good story can be sabotaged with a bad ending just like how a poor story isn't saved by a good ending. It's a journey and the destination is important. You can't just point at a given chapter and say "yes, yes the story has flaws, but this chapter is good." and use that to refute the readers legitimate concerns.

The Mass Effect trilogy has been highly compartmentalized from its conception, starting with how the first game did not care what order you did any missions in and continuing to how characters had only the most superficial involvement with eachother until ME3, yet an entire game focusing around twelve different, non-connecting sidekicks was considered one of the best games of the series.

Besides that both ME1 and ME2 had the exact same style of ending as ME3 without the uproar previously, yes the fact that most of a product is superb is an effective rebuttal to any claim that the flaws prove that the writers suck. If the writers suck, there wouldn't be a great super-majority of the content.

[Dean_the_Young]

dkear1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?
ME3.

Only time will tell on this one.  Sure it made money out of the gate.  But until the returns and lost sales if they don't fix the game are computed then the jury is still out. 

No, it's actually a fact. ME3 has already gotten significant critical and private acclaim for what it has done right.

[UnbornLeviathan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dkear1 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know what else has made money and gotten accolades?
ME3.

Only time will tell on this one.  Sure it made money out of the gate.  But until the returns and lost sales if they don't fix the game are computed then the jury is still out. 

No, it's actually a fact. ME3 has already gotten significant critical and private acclaim for what it has done right.

You know what else got Critical Acclaim out the gate?

Force Unleashed 2, and we all know about that game.

[Drak41n]

You dont think the fact that two of your choices homogenizes life in the galaxy and the third only delays biological extinction violates the concept that different life can be tolerated? What was the point of discovering the geth weren't the aggressor or edi growth as an individual if they were just going to be destroyed for being different or made like everyone else?