385 réponses à ce sujet

[Madecologist]

As I said, I think it is pretty obvious that the a large group of people (may or may not be the majority, I'd say they are the majority) don't like the ending. I base my judgement on the fact I actually work at a hobby store, I think everyone I talked to did not like the ending. Most are just not worked up about it.

Some still like the game a lot actually, they would start talking about other great games with bad endings. Some felt it ruined the game. What I am saying not everyone that disliked the ending have the same reaction. I know people in person that cancelled SWTOR accounts because of this, yet others that want to play MP matches with me in ME3; and both groups have the same opinion of the end.

It hard to say what the books will say, but I doubt only the disappointing ending will go down history as much as it will be completely ignored and forgotton. The whole thing will be there as a package.

Dean, I know you are trying to tell people that 'c'est pas la fin du monde', but you almost make it sound like the ending and the displeasure people had about it will be glossed over. Sorry if I misread you, but you seem to give off that impression and that might still rile some feathers with some of the people that still feel strongly about the endings.

Modifié par Madecologist, 15 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[NReed106]

Mmm yes, Plot holes and deus ex machina endings are the pinnacle of fantastic writing, how could I be so blind?

[Dean_the_Young]

thealgebraist wrote...

Here's what I think, in order of importance.

Dean has a masterful grasp of language and semantics, and is.probably unintentionally trolling everyone here. He is also using said quality to win a fight he shouldn't be winning. I suspect, though don't claim to know, that he probably knows this too.

Call a spade a spade. I won't terribly mind.

How anyone can 'unintentionally' troll is a mystery, since it's a deliberate act. And no, I'm not. I think most people exagerate the real issues, and take them far too seriously.

Example?His percentage of the game arguement. It seems to.be completely ignoring that not all parts or experiences of the game have equal weight. Also ignores how memory and idea processing works, which gives (by our very nature) more weight to.the ending of closing of almost anything we learn or yearn for.This skews the whole thing, but that would give the material small percentage a much larger emotional and intellectual clout than he wants you to think. He either missed this and isn't as clever as the game he talks, or he knows this failed to include it when preseting his arguement.

Two problems with your problems.

First, the percentage argument was based around the overall quality of the game in a context on the, again, overall quality. While different parts have different emotional and mental weights, they don't change the actual composition or relative amount. To say an entire game is horrible for a portion simply because the portion is more memorable to you is a statistical fallacy.

I don't like statistical fallacies.

Second, I am a self-admitted skeptic on the validity of emotional responses. I've consistently criticized both consumers and creatprs who rely on emotional reactions as a means of judgement and quality. When creators rely on emotional reactions to deliver a point, they produce pieces like the Overlord finale in which torture and sadism only exists to shock the viewer, and for no other purpose.

When consumers rely on their emotional responses to evaluate a subject, they are very prone to dropping critical thinking and responding emotionally rather than logically. This is why there are still people who insist that Cerberus's actions in ME2 were terrorism, or that the Geth are blameless in the ongoing Geth-Quarian dispute.

[johnnybravo2]

i see what you are trying to get across, but you are off. Bioware can see their costumers complaining and either do nothing and lose alot of respect and costumers or capitalize on the fact that their costumers want a dlc which would satisfy both parties. the take mass effect 3 back charity is a perfect example of gamers coming together to accomplish something great. So clearly you are not a mass effect fan if you think what we are doing is a joke.

"every war has its traitors"

so i say HOLD THE LINE!

[themaltaproject]

PKchu wrote...


Oh come on. I'm saying it's a bigger deal for Bioware's future than you're letting on, not that it's the most important thing in the world. You're overemphasing the short term success before many finished the ending and underemphasing the very common fan reaction of people who are severely displeased with what the ending did to the series as a whole. Quanity of good parts will not make up for the impact of the ending, it was not satisfying or else there would not be this outcry. The backlash is real.

I also am a below-average income person with leisure time because I can't get a damn job and live in a city with horrible economic conditions. Your assumptions suck. And the details of my personal problems are none of your business. 

His assumptions were actually statistics.

[nevar00]

...No, it was awful because all the endings were relatively the same, none of your decisions had an impact, and they were all riddled with plot holes (if taken at face value assuming there is no other ending).

It was atrocious. I loved the games but I have no loyalty to Bioware if they're going to pull crap like that (and making a Prothean DLC). I have no intention of purchasing a product from them again.

[Tony208]

All I got from the OP was my opinion is that your opinion doesn't matter so there. Along with a lot of pretentious crap.

[Shinzarn]

Oh noes! I have been undone your logic and rapier-sharp wit. You have slain the anger in my heart of hearts and now I shall buy that the endings to this game were amazing! Thank you so much for guiding this ignorant fool out of the darkness and into the light. Only someone as enlightened and ascended as you could possibly have accomplished this. Please, show others the light!

Seriously though, those endings were just awful, and no amount of talking down to me is going to change that. I appreciate that you think we are all morons who simply zombie our way to the counter at the mention of the Bioware to hand over our money, but in the real world, when I am upset, I usually stop doing what made me upset... It's worked well in the past, so I think I will continue the trend and not purchase anymore Bioware stuff, which I guess makes me a lot less of a guaranteed asset than you would think. Still though, you made some good points somewhere in there I am sure, I simply don't have enough respect for you to read the whole thing and find them.

[TwelfthCrusader]

I still haven't processed the ending yet and I'm not fully aware of what my opinion on it is yet. There's a lot of negative posts on the forum which start to make certain things seem clearer than others and that's not helping me focus my thoughts. However, regardless of what my view is, I support what you're doing right now.

Before you started typing this you knew the backlash of hate you were going to receive so that either makes you very bold or a very dedicated troll. I'm leaning towards the former though. If that's the way you think and about the ending then that's great, I have nothing bad to say to you because of that. I may not agree with all your points, the stuff about Bioware not listening, for example (I know that wasn't the bulk of the point), but I'm impressed that you'd still post it after what everybody else has said.

I haven't seen a single good post about the ending and while the majority of negative posts I've read have been civil a lot of the posts in this thread are not. Just to clarify, I'm not saying I completely agree with either party here but the one thing I can say is that I understand both your views and respect them.

Now that I've typed this out I've realised that there's not much point to it as I'm basically saying that I'm staying on the fence for this one. However, I think it's only fair for everyone to let each other think what they want; especially on a matter with so much controversy within the community.

[Dean_the_Young]

PKchu wrote...

"A lack of pattern recognition isn't betrayal. It's misplaced expectations."

Who crafted the series? I don't think my expectations are rare or uncommon. Bioware did a poor job of managing expectations.

Bioware's job in managing expectations is telling you what they intend to do. If you expect more, the only person to blame is yourself.

I'm not going to argue with you about the quality of ME1/2 even though I don't feel like you because it's not really pertient or all that relevant to the other issues.

The quality isn't important. Their nature is: ME3's finale was a near copy of the ME1 finale in structure and variance. ME2's was even less.

Oh come on. I'm saying it's a bigger deal for Bioware's future than you're letting on, not that it's the most important thing in the world. You're overemphasing the short term success before many finished the ending and underemphasing the very common fan reaction of people who are severely displeased with what the ending did to the series as a whole. Quanity of good parts will not make up for the impact of the ending, it was not satisfying or else there would not be this outcry. The backlash is real.

Bioware is making a lot of money from ME3. Bioware is still a standard-setter in quality epic RPGs. Bioware has a well-deserved reputation for self-improvement and internal review. Bioware has overcome fan-hysteria and denouncing before, and had then-reviled products looked back with nostalgia.

Bioware is in a very sound position. They can continue to produce quality works, and have not only future opportunities but past successes to point towards as a basis for others to come back to them.

I also am a below-average income person with leisure time because I can't get a damn job and live in a city with horrible economic conditions. Your assumptions suck. And the details of my personal problems are none of your business.

You have time and access to a computer with internet, an XBOX, and a copy of Mass Effect 3, and live in a city. You are well above the global average.

You could say this about anything and use it to undermine things like not getting your cable installed, good internet service, what you paid for. It isn't a big deal in terms of like, the issues of my life but it matters to me as something I care about.

The keep it measured. There's nothing wrong with saying 'I didn't like it.' There is a weakness in saying 'it's important.'

Bioware didn't kill my family and leave me in a cave to starve, but they made me unhappy as a customer. It's my perogative to ask for a better ending if I want.

Sure. And it's my perogative to tell you that the extent of your claimed unhappiness is unreasonable.

[Axolotl Shepard]

CHECKMATE? I thought we were playing Simon Says with the Glowy Star Child.

[MintyCool]

GBGriffin wrote...

I'm sorry that you wasted your time in typing out a lengthy post, only for it to be skimmed and undoubtedly buried beneath other topics. ;_;

FabricatedWookie wrote...

Don't care

Vasparian wrote...

All I saw was blah blah I am pretentious and condescending.

deathscythe517 wrote...

... you're really just cheerleading for Bioware, and that's what it comes down to isn't it?

Dark Penitant wrote...

I stopped listening.

Pyropedic wrote...

"I enjoyed it, and the reason you didn't is because you're inferior."

Well done.

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Checkmate. Entitled. Winning.

PrettyD3f wrote...

Let the windbag flap in the wind and move on.

---

MintyCool wrote...

You may have noticed the outcry about the ending is already dissipating, why?

It takes work to be angry; you're intellectually incapable of focusing for a long enough period of time to actually cause change. Most of you are incapable of even reading to this point of the article.

At the moment, the public views you as the political equivalent to the Occupy Wall street crowd. You are a joke. You come up with ridiculous theories that only spook conspirators' would believe; you introduce props and cheap gags like charities that only smudge up your message. You are simply noise.

^

Modifié par MintyCool, 15 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

johnnybravo2 wrote...

i see what you are trying to get across, but you are off. Bioware can see their costumers complaining and either do nothing and lose alot of respect and costumers or capitalize on the fact that their costumers want a dlc which would satisfy both parties.

Except that it won't, because the 'criticizers' aren't a single party. You people are divided amongst yourselves in what you actually want, and what you think is wrong with it.

the take mass effect 3 back charity is a perfect example of gamers coming together to accomplish something great. So clearly you are not a mass effect fan if you think what we are doing is a joke.

No True Scotsman fallacy.

"every war has its traitors"

so i say HOLD THE LINE!

Person-who-named-themself-after-a-cartoon-character, this is not a war.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shinzarn wrote...

Oh noes! I have been undone your logic and rapier-sharp wit. You have slain the anger in my heart of hearts and now I shall buy that the endings to this game were amazing! Thank you so much for guiding this ignorant fool out of the darkness and into the light. Only someone as enlightened and ascended as you could possibly have accomplished this. Please, show others the light!

Sarcasm does not besuit you.

Seriously though, those endings were just awful, and no amount of talking down to me is going to change that. I appreciate that you think we are all morons who simply zombie our way to the counter at the mention of the Bioware to hand over our money, but in the real world, when I am upset, I usually stop doing what made me upset... It's worked well in the past, so I think I will continue the trend and not purchase anymore Bioware stuff, which I guess makes me a lot less of a guaranteed asset than you would think. Still though, you made some good points somewhere in there I am sure, I simply don't have enough respect for you to read the whole thing and find them.

Well, besides that I don't dispute that the endings are bad. Or claim that you are all morons.

Though why you think an aberation to a pattern of success warrants abdication of a company is beyond me.

[Axolotl Shepard]

Also, if this didn't matter, why is Amazon dropping the price of the game?

[Nekroso22]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You people are divided amongst yourselves in what you actually want, and what you think is wrong with it.

I think you'll find that the complaints presented about the ending are quite uniform. Lack of closure, inexplicable plot holes, etc.

[8666737]

In reference to mintycool.

Yes the fans opinions do matter, would star trek be what it is today if fans had let the season be canceled after a few seasons? Would farscape have been made into a feature movie if they fans hadn’t risen up and pressured for a final conclusions to that franchise?

I have been absolutely pissed I am with the ME3 ending and how completely empty and void it has made my life for 2 days now. All the work in ME1 and ME2 building characters and relationships and then carrying them over into ME3 to have it thrown away in a single cut scene is horrible to say the least.

The ending removed 100% of the universe that we had been involved with before and replaced it with some sudo-god bull**** that made completely no-sense in the universe we had been presented in 99% of the previous content.

No matter what decision you made and all the effort you put into saving earth, you were presented with a completely blank ending, the Normandy, abandoned on a deserted planet.

That is why people are pissed, not because we are entitled or have short attention spans, it’s because games like this are designed to get the player involved completely in the storyline.

By removing a “happy-ending” and introducing a completely new plot device, the Q type child entity that basically says “here are your choices” it invalidates the universe that had been presented as an open environment for human ingenuity.

This is the equivalent of killing of Kirk on the first star trek movie as a plot device and then destroying earth by some random god figure.

The ending makes absolutely no sense and has completely destroyed any remaining faith I had in Bioware.

[stcalvin13]

""In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset."

Haha. They better not. No seriously, it's horrible business.
BW's cred has NEVER been lower. We're suspicious of EA. All of us are, have been from the beginning. Then they release Dragon Age 2, which people Hated (Hated!). (As an aside I kinda liked it and think that a lot of the complaints were unfair). But DA2 was survivable. It didn't really build on the previous story and set up a story that sounds all things considered pretty cool. Oh, and it wasn't THEIR FLAGSHIP GAME!
ME3, right now, isn't. This much I know. Me and all those that feel like me aren't buying any ME3 DLC til this is fixed. I'm not buying DA3 til this is fixed. I'm not buying anything that could be the start of a BW series and I'm not pre-ordering anything. I'm waiting til word on the street tells me it's good.
You think this anger will dissipate? Got bad news for you. This isn't anger. It's deeper. It's mistrust. I quite simply don't trust BW anymore. Until I know that there next story line is complete finished, I'm not buying their stuff because I can't trust them not too ruin it.

And unlike the Chicago Bulls--the only BBall team in Chicago--it's not like I have no where to go for RPGs. Sure no one else is making KOTOR or ME1&2 caliber games, but right now . . . BW ain't either.

[Drak41n]

Dean_the_Young wrote...]

When Bioware decided to bring Tali and Garrus back as romance-interests (which was their justification for returning in ME2), and then made the entirety of ME2 about the squad and the Collectors and Reapers a 4-mission side note, they kind of did.

ME3 tried to step away from it, but ME2 really set the series up for failure in a lot of ways, both in terms of character-weight and consequences. I don't blame players for putting so much weight on the characters, all things considered.

You're elevating game play over story again.  The story in Mass Effect 2 was how Shepard was going to build a team to overcome insurmountable odds.  It's not surprising that the team was a big focus, the team determined the success, or failure, of the mission.  It was the mission, though, that dicated everything you did.  You didn't confront the collectors because Mordin told you to.

Of course, nothing required that you build the full team, nor did it require that you do all the side quests for your team.  That was up to you.  To say that team was the entire focus of Mass Effect 2 is just  wrong.  Mass Effect 2 also introduced Cerberus and how they fit into humanity's place in the universe.  It also focused on the Reaper's methods and how frighteningly advanced and organized they were.  It also demonstrated how unprepared the council was and how unwilling they were to take the threat seriously.  Everything you did - build your team, upgrade your ship, even scan planets, you did because you needed to prepare for the suicide mission.  That was the focus.  That was the reason you built your team.

Tali and Garrus came back because their characters were awesome.  They were awesome because of how they were portrayed in Mass Effect, and fans wanted them back.  That alone undermines your argument that Mass Effect had flat, meaningless characters.  Beyond that, relationships are also important in a story because they form how we related to different figures within that story.  It's important to see how Legion and Tali interact because it informs us about how that galaxy works and the potential for change based on that relationship.

Ignoring that, I have to say that your argument confuses me.  You seem to suggest that accolades negate people's complaint about how the story ends.  That doesn't makes sense because I haven't seen people say Mass Effect 3 sucks.  I see people saying Mass Effect 3 is great but has a terrible ending.  I think that's a pretty accurate description.

You also say the game is great, but you turn around and criticize the story when it suits your purpose.  Are you just being contrary to be contrary?

Modifié par Drak41n, 15 mars 2012 - 03:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nekroso22 wrote...

I think you'll find that the complaints presented about the ending are quite uniform. Lack of closure, inexplicable plot holes, etc.

Besides that some of those claimed plot holes aren't plot holes, any more than the Crucible is a deus ex machina (another common claim), what lacks closure is also in dispute.

For some people, it's not having epilogue slides. For others, it's the lack of love interests. For some, it's simply the fact that Shepard dies.

[SandTrout]

In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset.

Didn't need to read anything else.

This is blatantly false. We were a guaranteed asset before ME3, and maybe you still are, but a lot of us (not going to claim most, but a noticeable chunk) no longer trust the brand, which means, at the least, no more pre-orders/Collectors editions. At worst we never let BioWare touch our money again.

[Conduit0]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Allegory and metaphor.

The Normandy's destruction but survival onto a new world parallels the post-Relay, post-Reaper galaxy: damaged, disconnected and seeming isolated, but alive and in a position to rebuild. The Normandy's inability to fly is analogous to the galaxy's inability to easily connect to eachother without relays, but the verdant garden world represents the new opportunities that exist even so. The emerging of the crew not only symbolizes survival, both of individuals and the galaxy, but the multiple races hints towards both cooperation and a new style of coexistince that will follow the Reapers. The survival of the group, watching the rising sun, is the obvious sign of the new era past the darkness of the Reapers.

So what you're saying is that in the middle of the greatest battle of their time, Joker suddenly proclaimed 'QUICK LADS, WE MUST CREATE A METAPHOR!' and scooped up everyone onto the Normandy so he could fly away from the battle in order TO BE PROFOUND and METAPHORICAL.

This is the laziest kind of symbolism conceivable, and you seem to be intelligent enough to know that. It's shoehorned into a situation when there's no logical reason for it to be there.

Except it does make sense if you bothered to actually put a modicum of thought into it. With Shepard presumed dead and the plan to retake the Citadel an apparent failure it would make sense for the squad to regroup back on the Normandy. Once the Citadel activates and the giant wave of energy bursts forth, what would you do in Joker's situation? Would you sit around and cross your fingers hoping that giant wave of unknown energy will harmlessly wash over you, or would you play it safe and bugger out of their?

[Nekroso22]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've consistently criticized both consumers and creatprs who rely on emotional reactions as a means of judgement and quality. When creators rely on emotional reactions to deliver a point, they produce pieces like the Overlord finale in which torture and sadism only exists to shock the viewer, and for no other purpose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't emotional reactions the basis of storytelling? The various plots and themes work together to craft an emotional landscape of attractions and various emotional dynamics? Judging an artistic work involves emotional attachment.

[Cody211282]

"In the end, Bioware views you as a guaranteed asset."

Ya well we will see how many "guaranteed assets" come around for the next game.

[thealgebraist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

thealgebraist wrote...

Here's what I think, in order of importance.

Dean has a masterful grasp of language and semantics, and is.probably unintentionally trolling everyone here. He is also using said quality to win a fight he shouldn't be winning. I suspect, though don't claim to know, that he probably knows this too.

Call a spade a spade. I won't terribly mind.

How anyone can 'unintentionally' troll is a mystery, since it's a deliberate act. And no, I'm not. I think most people exagerate the real issues, and take them far too seriously.

Example?His percentage of the game arguement. It seems to.be completely ignoring that not all parts or experiences of the game have equal weight. Also ignores how memory and idea processing works, which gives (by our very nature) more weight to.the ending of closing of almost anything we learn or yearn for.This skews the whole thing, but that would give the material small percentage a much larger emotional and intellectual clout than he wants you to think. He either missed this and isn't as clever as the game he talks, or he knows this failed to include it when preseting his arguement.

Two problems with your problems.

First, the percentage argument was based around the overall quality of the game in a context on the, again, overall quality. While different parts have different emotional and mental weights, they don't change the actual composition or relative amount. To say an entire game is horrible for a portion simply because the portion is more memorable to you is a statistical fallacy.

I don't like statistical fallacies.

Second, I am a self-admitted skeptic on the validity of emotional responses. I've consistently criticized both consumers and creatprs who rely on emotional reactions as a means of judgement and quality. When creators rely on emotional reactions to deliver a point, they produce pieces like the Overlord finale in which torture and sadism only exists to shock the viewer, and for no other purpose.

When consumers rely on their emotional responses to evaluate a subject, they are very prone to dropping critical thinking and responding emotionally rather than logically. This is why there are still people who insist that Cerberus's actions in ME2 were terrorism, or that the Geth are blameless in the ongoing Geth-Quarian dispute.

I never said the entire game was horrible, you are distracting. Rebranding my arguement doesn't work. It's not a statistical fallacy, because I'm talking about the impact not composition. Are you really trying to argue that in terms of overall impact a small percent of something can't carry more weight than the majority? The world is full of contrary examples. I argued that although your statement about the game being more good than it has bad was not as cut and dry as you made out. Because you are maintaining that each 1% of it's time spent is given the same weight.You know it's not, stop saying it is. Also, the quality of the game is dependant on its ability to do what it was intended to do. Which btw was invoke an emotional and intellectual response. 

I read a book with the last 3 pages missing. The rest of the book was amazing, I'm still going to be annoyed at the "small percentage" that's missing and ruined the overall story for me. Don't even try and tell me that I can't use "missing" because we know that it is what's missing from the ending that people are really complaining about.

You also dodged that I didn't say that it was solely emotional weight. Nor did you treat the actual point I made. My response has not been devoid of critical thinking, nor logical thinking. I have evaluated the game on both an emotional and intellectual level. 

I was left emotionally unfullfilled by the ending even though I understand its roots, and that it wasn't as surprising or out of the blue as some seem to think. I was left otherwise upset by Biowares treatment of the ending as both a story telling element and a gameplay feature because they went against what they stated they would.