93 réponses à ce sujet

[StuartMarshall]

When I saw Cailan in the trailers I thought he would be a snooty and annoying character... but then I saw him in the game and I found him very likeable. He was almost child-like in his enthusiasm which was his undoing in the end perhaps but compared to much of the nobility in Ferelden he seemed like a good person. Like, no matter what Origin you choose or how rude you are to him, he treats you with respect.

To me the saddest moment of the game was when he and Duncan fell, but his death really hit me as I thought originally he might survive (even though the army was destined to lose to push the danger of the Blight).

Honestly, I found Cailan far more interesting in the little interaction we had with him than his half-brother Alistair. He wasn't the smartest man but never faltered in the battle and fought till the end. I would rather Cailan on the throne than Alistair.

Would Cailan have survived if Loghain sent his men in? Loghain is blamed with "murdering" Cailan but was it ever said exactly what moment his men were supposed to charge into the battle?

[Herr Uhl]

I didn't like Cailan. Dislike people who talk about "glory". A pet peeve of mine.

[Barryzc123]

StuartMarshall wrote...

Would Cailan have survived if Loghain sent his men in? Loghain is blamed with "murdering" Cailan but was it ever said exactly what moment his men were supposed to charge into the battle?

Wasn't the whole point of getting to the top of the tower and lighting the beacon that it was the signal for Loghain's attack ?
Which leads to the question of whether Loghain knew about the darkspawn tunnelling into the tower, and in fact had arranged it...
It had been sealed off on his orders after all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cailan might be a good guy, but I wouldn't want him to be my king.

[MS3825]

My impression was that, despite all the bravado and talk of glory and stories, he knew it wouldn't be that easy - it was all a theatrical show so that any soldiers wouldn't see him as cowardly. I could be reading too much into the word "royalty" and the training that nobles usually get in not only tactics / swordplay but how to deal with your underlings.

[Rathengar]

StuartMarshall wrote...

Would Cailan have survived if Loghain sent his men in? Loghain is blamed with "murdering" Cailan but was it ever said exactly what moment his men were supposed to charge into the battle?

Ya Loghain was supose to charge into battle when beacon got lit  in the tower by you.

But instead Loghain choose to walk away ..... Bastard !

[Taerda]

The forum ate my first post so:

I saw him as being related to Allistair, even before being told they were in fact related. I also appreciated how he treated all my characters with respect, and responded accordingly. I did know he was doomed from the beginning however, so on my first play thru I purposefully kept somewhat shallow with him.

[cglasgow]

I agree. Cailan was entirely honest, well-meaning, idealistic, and devoid of prejudice of any kind -- which puts him well above the average for kings, even fantasy kings.
Sure, he wasn't very *smart*, but it seemed to be the kind of stupid you grow out of as you gain more life experience, not the kind of stupid that sticks with you forever. Remember, Alistair is Cailan's half-brother, and he has much the same problem... and solution.
So I'd entirely not mind Cailan being my king. Granted, I'd want him to have very competent (and non-treacherous) royal advisors around until he was like 30, but, well, there's precedent for that.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[ReubenLiew]

I don't even understand why they needed a bloody tower to signal the charge. Did they not invent horns yet?

And it can't be that hard to send a signal to Loghain, I mean he's closer to the battlefield than any of you up there would be, and if Alistair all the way up there could see the signal, why couldn't Loghain?



Anyway back on topic.

I liked Cailan enough as a noble on my first playthrough since he promised to help avenge my family. He seemed a little petulant and childish though, but most kings that are born into the throne don't grow up till they're 50 anyway.

[LtlMac]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I didn't like Cailan. Dislike people who talk about "glory". A pet peeve of mine.

I agree with you to an extent...but lets not forget most of us were glory seekers at one time in our lives....until we learned better.  It is simply the instinct of men I think, to seek glory.....and unfortunate that the cold realities of life come in lessons learned to late for many men over the ages. 

  I liked King Cailan....he would have grown up and been a great king, I think. 

Modifié par LtlMac, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[Tyrias Greysong]

I liked him. The fact he thought he was the main character of this legend was funny.

[Herr Uhl]

cglasgow wrote...

I agree. Cailan was entirely honest, well-meaning, idealistic, and devoid of prejudice of any kind -- which puts him well above the average for kings, even fantasy kings.
Sure, he wasn't very *smart*, but it seemed to be the kind of stupid you grow out of as you gain more life experience, not the kind of stupid that sticks with you forever. Remember, Alistair is Cailan's half-brother, and he has much the same problem... and solution.
So I'd entirely not mind Cailan being my king. Granted, I'd want him to have very competent (and non-treacherous) royal advisors around until he was like 30, but, well, there's precedent for that.

I would not want him as my leader. Well-meaning has nothing to do with it. He is a naive fool, mind you he could become better with age, but as he is now we could almost have Oren on the throne and he would do about as good of a job.

[bjdbwea]

He's a nice guy, and even brave, but not qualified to be king, let alone commander of the army. But yeah, I like him, more than Duncan for sure. Also the voice acting for Cailan is very well done.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cailan might be a good guy, but I wouldn't want him to be my king.

I would. He showed that he truly cared for the people. And that is a rare trait.

[ReubenLiew]

Loved his people enough to charge out of a perfectly defensible fort for the sake of immediate glory?

No thanks, can I get a refund? This king's broken.

[dkwroot]

Cailan was kind and noble, he would have made an awesome knight, but he lacked the tactical mind of a great king. His heart was definitely in the right place and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't like him, but he wasn't the best king and he put a lot of his soldiers in danger with his reckless attitude. He was childish and too eager for glory that he couldn't see the true horrors of war that Loghain witnessed. Remember that Loghain fought a brutal war with the Orlais, so his view on war wasn't so pretty...



I recalled how Loghain would talk about how he watched men with no weapons to speak of charge the soldiers of Orlais out of desperation... Throwing themselves into the slaughter, just hoping to make a difference despite the overwhelming odds.



That's something Cailan lacked and the way that he often shrugged off Loghain's warnings were a part of his undoing. He was respectful to most people, but he didn't have a lot of respect for the experience of those around him and especially Loghain who constantly warned him about his overly bold and reckless plans.

[cglasgow]

Well, note, the only qualification to be king is to pick the right parents. This is why the performance review standards for a king are slightly different from those for a general.   For a guy in a job that's selected on merit, the standard is 'Is he doing a good enough job right now?'   For inherited nobility, especially young inherited nobility, the standard is 'Does he have the potential to be doing a good job later, and is he managing to at least not blow up the kingdom right now?'   Cailan entirely passes that second standard.  Being honest and incorruptible is the single rarest thing you can find in a king, and if you have that, you can at least muddle through on loyal advisors until you've finished training him in the rest.   Strategy, tactics, political acumen... these are all things that can be learned.   Moral fiber is more innate.

Really, Cailan's major problem is that his father died too early. Royalty is expected to get through the 'young and foolish' phase of their life while still a prince, and then inherit from dad when they're starting to settle down. Cailan apparently had the crown drop on him when he was like 17 or 18, and he's only 22-23 now.

Also, note that everybody who backs Cailan admits that he needs competent advisors until he learns the job himself. Nobody's nominating him for general of the army, they're nominating him for *king*, and that's a bit different. A king can afford to not be a genius general himself... if he's smart enough to hire one, and then listen to his advice.

And hey, note that in the game, Cailan was very good about listening to Loghain's advice on battle plans, even if he did find Loghain a tedious boring old guy sometimes. The one disagreement we see them have, about calling in the Orlaisan Grey Wardens for backup, is the issue *Loghain* is wrong on, not Cailan.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[David Falkayn]

The story implies that had Cailan lived, he'd have gotten wiser and better--as Wynne points out, he's like a puppy. He understood that there were injustices in his realm and was going to attempt to deal with him. Whether he would have been an Edward III, a man who did grow into the job, or a Stephen, a well meaning failure, in the end is open to debate. It's also pretty much stated that Cailan and Duncan's forces were winning the battle until Loghain (or Rogaine as I've taken to calling him) betrayed them at the crucial moment.



So, to me, Cailan was a tragic character in that he represented lost potential.

[GoldenusG]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I would not want him as my leader. Well-meaning has nothing to do with it. He is a naive fool, mind you he could become better with age, but as he is now we could almost have Oren on the throne and he would do about as good of a job.

But as was mentioned, he left all the political manouvering to the missus, while he went about cracking skulls, and raising the spirits of the people.  Mind you, he also seemed to be the one who kept the various ban's working together, so maybe he wasn't as stupid as he appeared.


As for the plan, I can only assume Loghain was meant to lead a Gandalf-esque flanking manouver into the spawn, disrupting them, and possibly driving them into a further trap.

[Taritu]

I liked him. And while you can read it either way, I don't think he was as confident as he talked. That's why he wanted Orlesian reinforcements. But as a commander you can't let troops see that you think they might not win. You really, really can't, because it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it had been up to Cailan he would have waited till the Orlesian reinforcements got there. His mistake was listening to Loghain—in trusting Loghain and Loghain's judgement over his own.

He was also very kind to all my characters (although my city elf was pretty rude to him.)

Modifié par Taritu, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[Herr Uhl]

GoldenusG wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I would not want him as my leader. Well-meaning has nothing to do with it. He is a naive fool, mind you he could become better with age, but as he is now we could almost have Oren on the throne and he would do about as good of a job.

But as was mentioned, he left all the political manouvering to the missus, while he went about cracking skulls, and raising the spirits of the people.  Mind you, he also seemed to be the one who kept the various ban's working together, so maybe he wasn't as stupid as he appeared.


As for the plan, I can only assume Loghain was meant to lead a Gandalf-esque flanking manouver into the spawn, disrupting them, and possibly driving them into a further trap.

He kept them together by having the right ancestry, not through being a great leader.
Anora wore the pants in their relationship so to speak.

[cglasgow]

And, of course, Cailan really has no reason not to trust Loghain at that point in time: as far as everyone knows pre-Ostagar, Loghain is only the heroic high general of the kingdom's army who had served Cailan's father loyally all his life, and the guy who saved Ferelden from the Orlaisans by sheer military brilliance. So we can't even blame him for that.

[Zenon]

Having read "The stolen throne" I got an idea why Cailan was so fond of glorious battle. I think he has a good heart, but is still a little bit naive. Even when my char said to him: "I'm not your friend." he took it with friendly humor.



As for Loghain: There was no guarantee for Cailan to survive even with Loghain charging. But his chances would have been so much better. The fact is, that Loghain abandoned the king. To me it seems he was already thinking of it at the end of the warcouncil. Fact is, that he abandoned his king, which is like making sure he gets killed. But I don't think he arranged the tower to be overrun by darkspawn. That's just something, that happens in battles: Unforeseen obstacles.

[ReubenLiew]

Would it? We have no evidence that Cailan wanted to do what was tactically right. By all evidence it seemed that he wanted to have one final showdown with the Blight, forcing Loghain to come up with a strategy that didn't involve hiding in the fort and raining arrows down on the Blight while they bash their heads on the gates.



By all accounts it seems that Cailan bullied Loghain into coming up with a plan that involved drawing out the darkspawn because he wanted a glorious battle, not one won on wits and strategy, but one won through attrition, because that was more glorious. He would've willingly thrown lives away for the sake of legend and his own ego.



And I do not think Cailan wanted to wait at all. He didn't want to wait for Eamon's knights, there was no reason why he would've wanted to wait for Orlesian troops either. He probably brought that up simply to rile up Loghain which seems to be a habit of his.

[cglasgow]

I also note that anyone who puts Alistair on the throne is doing so on the theory that while he lacks all experience at command or ruling, he is a good man with an honest heart and the right royal bloodline, which entirely trumps Anora's greater competence as a judging factor. The game even says this in dialogue, if you pick the right options. As to the part where Alistair has all the command experience of a turnip, the same dialogue points out that he'll have Arl Eamon to learn the job from until he can do it on his own.



And if we can think Alistair is a good candidate for king based on the above logic, why not Cailan? Cailan not only has the exact same situation going on, he has an even better bloodline (as he's not a bastard) and many more competent advisors.