93 réponses à ce sujet

[fkirenicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Cailan might be a good guy, but I wouldn't want him to be my king.

Based on your avatar I must say "no, we noticed that".

[cglasgow]

Actually, we don't have it 'by all accounts'. Duncan entirely thought the plan would work too, and Duncan is the wise old voice of experience when it comes to wrecking darkspawn.



Had Loghain actually done what he was supposed to do, there's every reason to believe it would have worked. Sure, it wouldn't have ended the Blight (because the archdemon wasn't there), but it would have stopped its advance, and left the army intact and in good shape for further battles, commanding an excellent defensive position (notably, Ostagar).

[Herr Uhl]

cglasgow wrote...

I also note that anyone who puts Alistair on the throne is doing so on the theory that while he lacks all experience at command or ruling, he is a good man with an honest heart and the right royal bloodline, which entirely trumps Anora's greater competence as a judging factor.

Hey, I did it to be the guy behind him whispering suggestions. Loghain was right about putting a puppet on the throne <_<

[GoldenusG]

cglasgow wrote...

I also note that anyone who puts Alistair on the throne is doing so on the theory that while he lacks all experience at command or ruling, he is a good man with an honest heart and the right royal bloodline, which entirely trumps Anora's greater competence as a judging factor. The game even says this in dialogue, if you pick the right options. As to the part where Alistair has all the command experience of a turnip, the same dialogue points out that he'll have Arl Eamon to learn the job from until he can do it on his own.

And if we can think Alistair is a good candidate for king based on the above logic, why not Cailan? Cailan not only has the exact same situation going on, he has an even better bloodline (as he's not a bastard) and many more competent advisors.

Who says Anora is a competant Queen?  She does.  And she must be right, because she is a competant Queen.  Because she says so.

In game though, if she were all that good at her job, then why would Ferelden be on the verge of civil war, mere weeks after Cailen croaks?

My personal opinion, is the country would be strong under Anora, but the people miserable and somewhat oppressed.  Under just Cailan or Big Al, the people would prosper, but other countries would take advantage.

[ReubenLiew]

Duncan sounded more like he was placating the King more than anything, but even with Loghain troops it would've been a phyrric victory, by the looks of it.

Who knows, it might've worked or it might not have, we'll never know because of Loghain. I would've definitely just sit behind the wall and pump them full of arrows while waiting for them to bash down the walls and channel them into the valley where their numbers count for less.

But then again, the enemy had friggin stone-throwers, whilst the best artilerry the fereldans had were ballistaes. Looks like a one-sided battle to me.

[Thomas9321]

To be fair, the trebuchets did more damage to Ostagar than to the army, and that damage was superficial.

I think it would have worked personally. The army would not have suffered nearly as many casualties as it did by the time of Loghain's withdrawal had Cailan not had them charge.

Modifié par Thomas9321, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[cglasgow]

Nah, countercharging is a valid tactic under the circumstances, if you know you have reinforcements ready to make a massive flank attack as soon as you've got the enemy too locked up to shift front to face them.

Just standing still and waiting for them to hit you works if you have strong walls, but the Grey Wardens down in the valley didn't have walls. They didn't even have any big palisades. If they just stand there, the darkspawn charge hits them with full momentum. They've got to get in there and slug.

[ReubenLiew]

Maybe, what you say might be true.

However I still say that sitting behind the gates would've saved FAR more men, if not for Cailan's ego and glory-hounding, and would've been the more tactically sound plan.

Cailan was counting on ending the blight right there and then. If the later parts of the game shows anything, was that putting ALL your resources into that one, futile battle with no signs of the Archdemon anywhere would've just resulted in dead soldiers. The Dark Spawn were almost numberless, they stretched the entire horizon of the forest.

They could've won THAT battle yes, but they would've lost the war when the dark spawn attacked again.

Although they probably should've waited for the Orlesians and Eamons knights anyway, I'm not saying Loghain wasn't a nutjob, just saying that Cailan was just as much a nut job for wanting to fight one big battle with little payoff like that.

[Herr Uhl]

Wasn't part of the plan "luring" the darkspawn to attack.



Waiting for reinforcements were not put as something that was at all impossible.

[ReubenLiew]

cglasgow wrote...

Nah, countercharging is a valid tactic under the circumstances, if you know you have reinforcements ready to make a massive flank attack as soon as you've got the enemy too locked up to shift front to face them.
Just standing still and waiting for them to hit you works if you have strong walls, but the Grey Wardens down in the valley didn't have walls. They didn't even have any big palisades. If they just stand there, the darkspawn charge hits them with full momentum. They've got to get in there and slug.

Thats not true, actually. In the valley there was a wall and an opened gate behind them. They could've sat behind it and whittle down the enemy before the inevitable breakthrough.
And Loghain's men could've still countercharged then when they entered the valley. I don't even know how they planned on the countercharge though, there was absolutely no where for them to hide in the first place.
Ah well, it's all just speculation. Cailan might've been a good king, sure, but he hadn't grown up yet to be king right there and then.
I liked him well enough as a good sort, I guess, but I wouldn't want him making hard decisions for my kingdom, thats for sure.

[cglasgow]

When analyzing casualties, remember that Cailan knows that the forces of Redcliffe will be arriving within a week, and the Orlaisan Grey Wardens and a whole bunch of chevaliers will be arriving shortly after them.

For that matter, Loghain's dialogue at the Landsmeet immediately post-Ostagar shows that a whole lot of the Ferelden muster was not yet at Ostagar. Cailan had the royal troops there and detachments from some of the noble houses, but the Bannorn had hardly called out the mass levy yet.

So, he's not really fighting that stupid. Sure, he's bleeding his army some, but its only the vanguard of Ferelden's army. Their job is to keep the darkspawn from getting out of the Ostagar valley until the entire kingdom can arrive, and if Cailan hopes to win the whole thing in one glorious battle, that's only a flaw if it makes him actually use a stupid plan -- which he wasn't.

Seriously, Duncan might want to be diplomatic with the king, but if Cailan was really going to get all of the Grey Wardens killed, Duncan would say '**** diplomacy' and we know it. That he actually went along with the plan puts a definite limit on how stupid the plan could actually be.

[cglasgow]

The problem with using the wall and gate behind them is that the darkspawn have siege artillery. When the foe's got trebuchets, static defense is not so good.

[eternalnightmare13]

Sandal would've made a better king! Never liked Cailan. Really annoying and immature.

[ReubenLiew]

All the trubechet's in the world can't bring down a mountain Remember the fort itself was only a small part of the mountain, and aiming trebuchets are notoriously hard. It would've taken quite a while for them to get them to hit such a small target from that range.



Aye, your points make sense. But I still wouldn't call Cailan a good tactician since he didn't come up with the specifics of the plan, I get the vibe that he just wanted a good fight and left all the real planning to Loghain. Cailan's plan might've been as good as 'Right, we charge them and win! Jolly good.' for all we know.



I don't feel like we got to know the character enough, but through what little we know of him I get the impression he wasn't one to plan out his moves.

But I guess that isn't a requirement to be a king, I suppose. Thats what having generals are for.

[Thomas9321]

cglasgow wrote...

Nah, countercharging is a valid tactic under the circumstances, if you know you have reinforcements ready to make a massive flank attack as soon as you've got the enemy too locked up to shift front to face them.
Just standing still and waiting for them to hit you works if you have strong walls, but the Grey Wardens down in the valley didn't have walls. They didn't even have any big palisades. If they just stand there, the darkspawn charge hits them with full momentum. They've got to get in there and slug.

But they charged into the midst of of a numerically superior force. Thats silly. If they had stood their ground, they could not have been surrounded, and several other factors that were working in the royal army's favour could have come into play. The darkspawn would have hit a solid wall of armoured soldier, been flanked by Loghain, THEN the king should have ordered his men forward. An attack on two fronts would likely have routed the horde, especially lacking the Archdemon.

The King's forces DID have strong walls - they were surrounded on two sides by inpenetrable fortress. You don't charge a numerically superior force, it is foolish. Allowing the darkspawn to spend their momentum locks them into position far better than moving out into the valley.

Indeed, Cailans charge summed up his personality very well for me: glory before anything else. However, either way, Loghain's flanking manoeuvre would have been a success (there is no reason to thin otherwise afterall). The King's "For Ferelden!" shout just cost lives.

[cglasgow]

Remember that Alphas and Emissaries have human-level intelligence. Loghain's flanking maneuver won't work if the darkspawn can spot it coming in time to shift front to face them, as at that point Cailan's troops become the 'flanking' force, and we've already discussed the numerical inequality.



So if Cailan's troops and the Grey Wardens just stand there and wait, and wait, and wait, the Hurlock Alpha going there is going to rub some brain cells together and go 'What the hell are they waiting for? ... ohhhh, I get it. They're bait. I'm supposed to go charge them. Gee, I wonder what'll happen when I do that. SCOUTS OUT TO THE FLANKS! DEFENSIVE POSITIONS!'



Instead, Cailan distracts all their attention by being an oncoming threat coming straight for their faces, and they don't have time to think, or stop and look around.



Sure, its a gamble, but its not a stupid gamble, is the point.

[Drider-man]

StuartMarshall wrote...

When I saw Cailan in the trailers I thought he would be a snooty and annoying character... but then I saw him in the game and I found him very likeable. He was almost child-like in his enthusiasm which was his undoing in the end perhaps but compared to much of the nobility in Ferelden he seemed like a good person. Like, no matter what Origin you choose or how rude you are to him, he treats you with respect.

To me the saddest moment of the game was when he and Duncan fell, but his death really hit me as I thought originally he might survive (even though the army was destined to lose to push the danger of the Blight).

Honestly, I found Cailan far more interesting in the little interaction we had with him than his half-brother Alistair. He wasn't the smartest man but never faltered in the battle and fought till the end. I would rather Cailan on the throne than Alistair.

Would Cailan have survived if Loghain sent his men in? Loghain is blamed with "murdering" Cailan but was it ever said exactly what moment his men were supposed to charge into the battle?

I liked him, in the same way I liked Sandal. Quite an adorable little idiot. If he hadn't died on the battlefield I'm sure my human rogue would have been best buddies with him, drinking, wenching and generally goofing around all while being a very bad influence on the seemingly adolescent king

[ReubenLiew]

But the Dark Spawn charged first, so there's no reason to think that they wouldn't have charged anyway. When the horde moves, they move together. Once they've charged it's notoriously hard to bring them about to face a flanking maneuver. So the plan would've worked better if Cailan had kept his men in line. (although I can't fault Cailan on this, Fereldans are barbarians after all and disciplined fighting probably wasn't introduced then)

[Yorenec]

GoldenusG wrote...

Who says Anora is a competant Queen?  She does.  And she must be right, because she is a competant Queen.  Because she says so.

In game though, if she were all that good at her job, then why would Ferelden be on the verge of civil war, mere weeks after Cailen croaks?

My personal opinion, is the country would be strong under Anora, but the people miserable and somewhat oppressed.  Under just Cailan or Big Al, the people would prosper, but other countries would take advantage.

Yes and no.

The country would definitely prosper under Anora from an ecomonical standpoint, but let's face it, she's so utterly incompetent as a ruler and military leader that if the Orlesians or Qunari decided to invade, all of Ferelden would be enslaved in weeks.

With Cailan or Alistair in charge, Ferelden wouldn't do as well economically I'm sure(but still pretty good). However  I have no doubt the Orlesians would likely think twice before stirring up **** when the sons of the guy who kicked them out before are running the place.

Not to mention I'm not entirely sure the land would be united  or strong under Anora. You can talk to a dozen different nobles in the game and none of them will actually admit to LIKING her. If you talk to Loghain in camp you can get the sense that even he doesn't really respect her. I really don't think she has the loyalty of anybody whatsoever. Eamon knew this and that's why he put forth the idea to put Alistair on the throne.

As for Cailan, he just needed some time and experience, eventually he most likely would have been a great king.
It's funny how some people seem to think that one magically transforms into a great ruler automatically upon taking the throne.

[Thomas9321]

Double post is double post.

Modifié par Thomas9321, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:35 .

[Drider-man]

Anora may not have the loyalty or respect of the nobles, but she is, as far as I remember, adored by the common people. And indeed, why not? She's beautiful, capable and the childhood sweetheart (well, policitically beneficial betrothed) of their glorious-fool King Cailan, whom the people love for being Marics son, if nothing else.



In fact, now that I think of it Cailan and Anora don't seem to have much support among the nobles, other than being the chosen heirs of Maric and Loghain. but at least people admit to Anora being competent

[Thomas9321]

cglasgow wrote...

Remember that Alphas and Emissaries have human-level intelligence. Loghain's flanking maneuver won't work if the darkspawn can spot it coming in time to shift front to face them, as at that point Cailan's troops become the 'flanking' force, and we've already discussed the numerical inequality.

So if Cailan's troops and the Grey Wardens just stand there and wait, and wait, and wait, the Hurlock Alpha going there is going to rub some brain cells together and go 'What the hell are they waiting for? ... ohhhh, I get it. They're bait. I'm supposed to go charge them. Gee, I wonder what'll happen when I do that. SCOUTS OUT TO THE FLANKS! DEFENSIVE POSITIONS!'

Instead, Cailan distracts all their attention by being an oncoming threat coming straight for their faces, and they don't have time to think, or stop and look around.

Sure, its a gamble, but its not a stupid gamble, is the point.

I disagree, the darkspawn are the attacking force here. It isnt illogical for a defending army to play well, defensive. Remember, whilst Ostagar was Cailan's battle, his army was not the aggressor in the battle. Not to mention the his forces were split between Cailan's defending army and Loghain's flanking one. It makes no sense to risk the lives of his men in a charge when playing it defensive as well if not better.

[Soldatto Rosso]

I actually believe that Loghain planned Cailan's death weeks if not months before the fateful battle at Ostagar. The massacre was just too thought out and well planned; add to that events like Arl Howe's conquest of Highever (which most likely had Loghain's support) then it is clear that he definitely wanted Cailan dead. This was most likely due to the fact that Cailan had asked the Orlesians, the very people whom Loghain and Maric hated above all others, to aid them. If Cailan had not asked Ferelden's former conquerors for help, then Loghain would most likely not have rebelled.

Cailan was naive and a glory hound, true. But Loghain did not kill him for being so; he did it because the king would allow the hated Orlesians to set foot once more upon Ferelden soil. That was something he could not, would not, allow.

[Spaceweed10]

He's as big a chump as Alistair - no surprise they are brothers.

[Skellimancer]

His heart was in the right place but he was far too reckless.