93 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Soldatto Rosso wrote...
Cailan was naive and a glory hound, true. But Loghain did not kill him for being so; he did it because the king would allow the hated Orlesians to set foot once more upon Ferelden soil. That was something he could not, would not, allow.

Which is, to put it bluntly, a ridiculous motive for betraying him and nearly dooming Fereldan. Yeah, never mind the army of darkness that's sweeping over the land - maybe we stop them, maybe we don't, but hey, the survival of the country isn't as important as proving a point that they don't need the Orlesians.

Once the country was secure and the blight dealt with, *that* would have been the point where he should have started scheming if he felt he really must have. Trying to pull of this semi-supported coup in the middle of a war for survival is so ill-advised Loghain deserves to be executed for sheer stupidity alone.

[MadCat221]

All this talk of Lohgain being a "flanking force" is dependent on loyalty in Lohgain that simply didn't exist.  Lohgain was planning to betray Cailan from the start. You can see his agitation on the insistence that the PC and Allistair be in charge of lighting the beacon; that means his men up there can't be conveniently slaughtered by 'Spawn and not light the beacon.  He's forced to a much less subtle outright retreat, which there will be people still alive to spill the beans on.

Cailan, no matter whether or not he had a sound plan or not, was doomed along with the rest of his army because his right hand man is a traitor.

As for 

Modifié par MadCat221, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:40 .

[Yorenec]

Spaceweed10 wrote...

He's as big a chump as Alistair - no surprise they are brothers.

This made me laugh simply because I can't remember the last time I actually saw somebody use the term "chump"  except for fratboys and old men trying to be cool.

[kormesios]

FWIW, I liked him.  My city elf playthrough, when he asked what heroism I had performed, I responded "I killed an Arl's son for raping my friend."  His response was the best you could hope for, and seemed sincere.

He seemed sheltered and not fully in control of the government, what with Anora and Loghain.  The sheltered he was certainly going to improve on, given his energy and enthusiasm.  Whether he'd gain control (and rule well) is impossible to answer, but seeing the screw-up Loghain made of things, I'd take my chances.

The battle tactics are also tough to evaluate, but even if they didn't work, without Loghain's betrayal you a loss won't annihilate the army.  You fight a bloody battle, weaken the horde, and withdraw to the fortifications while reinforcements arrive.  It was either daring or unneccessarily bold, depending on information we don't have.  But there's no evidence offering battle at this point was incompetent.

ReubenLiew wrote...

Loved his people enough to charge out of a perfectly defensible fort for the sake of immediate glory?
No thanks, can I get a refund? This king's broken.

He led his *army* out.  The point of the army was to stop the darkspawn horde, not sit in a fortress and let them slaughter the peasants and southern reaches of the realm.

[MadCat221]

JaegerBane wrote...

Soldatto Rosso wrote...
Cailan was naive and a glory hound, true. But Loghain did not kill him for being so; he did it because the king would allow the hated Orlesians to set foot once more upon Ferelden soil. That was something he could not, would not, allow.

Which is, to put it bluntly, a ridiculous motive for betraying him and nearly dooming Fereldan. Yeah, never mind the army of darkness that's sweeping over the land - maybe we stop them, maybe we don't, but hey, the survival of the country isn't as important as proving a point that they don't need the Orlesians. 

Once the country was secure and the blight dealt with, *that* would have been the point where he should have started scheming if he felt he really must have. Trying to pull of this semi-supported coup in the middle of a war for survival is so ill-advised Loghain deserves to be executed for sheer stupidity alone.

It's made obvious as the story progresses that Lohgain's MO is not based on rationale.

Modifié par MadCat221, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:43 .

[Coik]

Personally, Cailan is a great guy and definitely someone I wouldn't mind hanging out with. As others pointed out, he needs some experience on statesmanship and tactics before you could consider him a good king...which might have just been youth and inexperience.



My only real issues wiht Cailan is that he only ordered one major volley of arrows against the darkspawn and didn't seem to use his mages at all. But I suppose for the sake of a cinematic...

[cglasgow]

The mages were presumably with Loghain. After all, they returned from Ostagar. And (unless you're playing a mage) you meet one Circle Mage with Loghain's troop contingent in the Tower of Ishal.

[kormesios]

The events in the movie have to be considered edited for drama & style.  Just the distances between the two starting armies, before the charge, looks all wrong to me in one shot, considering how much running then happens.

cglasgow wrote...

The mages were presumably with Loghain. After all, they returned from Ostagar. And (unless you're playing a mage) you meet one Circle Mage with Loghain's troop contingent in the Tower of Ishal.

Good point; in fact, they return and tell of the betrayal.  I'd forgotten that.

[Original182]

I would like to add another point of view.



Having a king like Cailan that does nothing, is still preferable to having a bad king. At least Cailan won't use his status to cause all sorts of trouble, which is what some power-hungry kings on a power-trip may do. The most uneasy peace is still preferable to the most glorious war.

[KalosCast]

Duncan even points out that regardless of how he truly feels or what the situation is truly like, Cailan would have to maintain this confident air of glory about him because the way he appears to feel greatly affects the morale of the rest of his army.

It's also rather implied that Anora did most of the delegation, and Cailan was the one who was more of the public face.

[cglasgow]

If you talk to her in camp, Wynne points out the same thing as regarding the king and needing to always maintain a confident and cheerful appearance.

[blauregen]

I thought Cailan was a nice guy. And he had Anora for the serious regency bussiness, so his boyish enthusiasm wasn't that detrimental.



Whether Loghain would have turned the battle, had he flanked the darkspawn as planned, is difficult to say. He had a sizeable strike force, but there were obviously a lot of darkspawn too. On the other hand - given that darkspawn is rather weak (up to this point at the tower a lot of darkspawn units including a heavy troll had been taken out by only a city elf girl, an insecure,half trained templer and only two regular units ) -. his soldiers might have turned the tide against the comparatively weak opponents even at this late point in time.

[Loki330]

Must admit: I was expecting the Archdemon to appear and lolwtfbqqpwn everyone except for Loghain and/or Cailan and then everyone would all be 'OH SHI-' and Loghain and/or Cailan would be 'Treaties! Allies! NAO!' while the demonss reinforced from Cailan's constant victories.



So yeah, I was kinda suprised at the actual events. I mean, I was expecting something, just not that.

[Jayce]

Thomas9321 wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

Nah, countercharging is a valid tactic under the circumstances, if you know you have reinforcements ready to make a massive flank attack as soon as you've got the enemy too locked up to shift front to face them.

But they charged into the midst of of a numerically superior force. Thats silly.

You might want to tell Edward, the Black Prince that, as he won several battles charging a numerically superior foe.

[Soldatto Rosso]

I personally love how Bioware handled the whole Cailan/Loghain drama. Usually in stories like these it's the calm and strategic brainiac that's the "good guy" and the brash and irrational jock/fratboy type that leads everyone to their downfall. The reversal here is nicely done.

Like Flemeth said, Loghain probably believed that he could "out-think" the Blight. He made several mistakes in his plot; for one, he thought that the bannorn would be so frightened of the blight that they wouldn't dare go to civil war with them on the march. And two, he made the mistake of thinking of the blight as a human enemy, one that you could out strategize and out flank. The Blight is pure evil, a force of nature that consumes all.

Loghain suffers from the sin of pride; he believed himself smarter than everyone else, and bought into the hero hype that he was a master strategist.

[Zenon]

I think the battle may have been won with Loghain's troops charging the flank of the enemy. But in this battle they were still by far outnumbered, so Loghain may really have saved his troops and a good portion of the army from being slaughtered. Besides one could argue, that Cailan caused his own fate by wanting to stand in the frontlines together with Duncan.



So this isn't a black & white situation after all. Then again, Loghain's actions, especially those after Ostagar don't speak in favor of him being a good regent. It would have been Loghain's duty to save Cailan from himself instead of abandoning him to leave him to his fate. But Loghain obviously despised Calian and must have thought, that Cailan would lead Ferelden to their doom. And because of his past, he completely resented Orlesian aid. But waiting for Orlais and more Grey Wardens, which was one of Cailan's ideas, would have been the better strategy.

[RPGmom28]

I thought Cailan was attractive, but I couldn't believe his naivete and told Duncan that the King didn't take the threat seriously. I can personality-wise see why he would be an endearing King. But it was not surprising at all how easily he was fooled. He was too trusting.

[cglasgow]

To be fair: Loghain fooled everyone, including Duncan, Wynne, and even his own lieutenant. Right up until the moment he gives the order to retreat, there isn't a single person at Ostagar who has any reason to think ill of him.

[AtreiyaN7]

cglasgow wrote...

I also note that anyone who puts Alistair on the throne is doing so on the theory that while he lacks all experience at command or ruling, he is a good man with an honest heart and the right royal bloodline, which entirely trumps Anora's greater competence as a judging factor. The game even says this in dialogue, if you pick the right options. As to the part where Alistair has all the command experience of a turnip, the same dialogue points out that he'll have Arl Eamon to learn the job from until he can do it on his own.

And if we can think Alistair is a good candidate for king based on the above logic, why not Cailan? Cailan not only has the exact same situation going on, he has an even better bloodline (as he's not a bastard) and many more competent advisors.

Okay, here's the difference (and I liked Cailan...not bad as eye candy anyway & seemed a charming enough man): Cailan had been on the throne for, what,  FIVE years? In all that time, he never took the art of governing seriously, and he had zero to desire to get involved in the boring parts of being a king. He was happy to bop along & let Anora make the real decisions, while relying on Loghain for military advice. As Anora pointed out, he'd usually cave in and agree with whatever Loghain said.

I just finished my second playthrough, this time as a female human noble who hardened Alistair up (and yes, became queen ). Alistair had the character and the potential to be a good king (with the hardening) - he'll actually argue for himself as king over Anora if you mediate after executing Loghain. In the epilogue it states that Alistair actually took things seriously, studied up & became a good king (who sneaked into the taverns on occasion). That, right there, is why Cailan was never a really good candidate. He had five years and didn't care about the real duties involved in being king. Alistair was put on the throne and immediately took things very seriously.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:28 .

[Volourn]

"impression was that, despite all the bravado and talk of glory and stories, he knew it wouldn't be that easy - it was all a theatrical show so that any soldiers wouldn't see him as cowardly. I could be reading too much into the word "royalty" and the training that nobles usually get in not only tactics / swordplay but how to deal with your underlings."



100% Agreed. I think Cailan gets a bad rep. He's definitely abetter king than Alistar. Alistar is a crybaby who has a TEMPER TANTRUM when you push the throne on him. Cailan's only mistake was trusting the wrong guy and that's more his father's fault since his father probably brainwashed him into trusting the punk.

[steelfire_dragon]

just like his father, that line is likeable.

however, I thin loghain knew that ostagr was a bad idea from the start, its only victory when the field is of your choosing and you can keep it.....ostagar was a death trap....

he was ambisious at best....
liked him, dont miss him though





http://content.sweet...sig.asp?img=ad1

[DiablosShadows]

i would of liked king cailan as a companion over his gay bro Alistair

[Ulyn]

I think the "wait a minute, Cailan isn't as much of a bozo as he looks" progression may have been something the writers had in mind. Some of his twittiest moments were part of the pre-release trailers and so forth, whereas positive, "Alistair-lite" things about him are mostly well into the game, in dialog with people who knew him.

[Zenon]

Original182 wrote...

I would like to add another point of view.

Having a king like Cailan that does nothing, is still preferable to having a bad king. At least Cailan won't use his status to cause all sorts of trouble, which is what some power-hungry kings on a power-trip may do. The most uneasy peace is still preferable to the most glorious war.

What do you mean with "doing nothing"? He lead his army into an almost hopeless battle knowing they were outnumbered. Loghain had a point, but was too proud to accept help from the hated neighbour Orlais. Cailan was much more open to the Orlesians. I think that is why Loghain saw in Cailan a threat to the freedom of Ferelden.

I still don't believe he sided with the Darkspawn to prevent the beacon. He just used his opportunities. Chances were, that the Darkspawn may attack the tower as well, if lead by an intelligent general. The reason why he got upset, that the Grey Wardens wanted to light the beacons was IMHO, that he preferred them to die in battle together with the king to have no dangerous witnesses of his betrayal.

[Sarethus]

Zenon wrote...

Original182 wrote...

I would like to add another point of view.

Having a king like Cailan that does nothing, is still preferable to having a bad king. At least Cailan won't use his status to cause all sorts of trouble, which is what some power-hungry kings on a power-trip may do. The most uneasy peace is still preferable to the most glorious war.

What do you mean with "doing nothing"? He lead his army into an almost hopeless battle knowing they were outnumbered. Loghain had a point, but was too proud to accept help from the hated neighbour Orlais. Cailan was much more open to the Orlesians. I think that is why Loghain saw in Cailan a threat to the freedom of Ferelden.

I still don't believe he sided with the Darkspawn to prevent the beacon. He just used his opportunities. Chances were, that the Darkspawn may attack the tower as well, if lead by an intelligent general. The reason why he got upset, that the Grey Wardens wanted to light the beacons was IMHO, that he preferred them to die in battle together with the king to have no dangerous witnesses of his betrayal.

Hopeless battle? Numbers help a lot in war but they do not outweigh all the other factors every time. In this case if the flanking attack had come as expected the battle would likely have been a victory for Fereldan. Also keep in mind that if you talk to the guard outside the tower just as you come into Ostagar he will mention that Loghain's men are investigating some "Lower Chambers" that they found as they didn't know how far down those chambers went. The guard then states that he did not see any such lower chambers when he was in the tower but "who knows"  so while it's not clear cut that Loghain planned there is enough evidence to indicate it.