93 réponses à ce sujet

[Amagoi]

I really liked Cailan (as you can see). From my own persceptive, I saw him deeper than some others might have. He definatly was a very naive, maybe a little stupid.. but so was Maric when he started out. See how good a king he turned out to be.

Wynne had a very good metaphor for him, Cailan really was like a puppy. He grew up on tales of heroes and of the war with orlais, where both his parents and loghain were major players in. From the books you get the idea that he loved his father very much, idolized him even. I think the way he came off as maybe glory hungry and overconfident was part of an act. He was hoping to be seen as a confident and inspiring leader like the heroes from his tales and his father (who acted much the same way when he was Cailan's age).

I believe Cailan would have made a great king if not for Loghain's betrayal, to me it was one of the greatest tragedies in the game.

[Ulyn]

It isn't clarified what the outcome would have been at Ostagar; but if it was likely to be a failure, Logain couldn't have known that on the basis of anything we see in game; Duncan's forshadowing and the battle cinematic suggests the horde is disconcertingly large for the final battle, but for Logain to know that you'd have to add in some elaborate scouting explanation and ignore all the evidence pointing to a pre-meditated coup related to Logain's perception of the Wardens as the thin end of an Orlesian occupation.



As well, if you go to the tower before the battle, the security cordon says something about the "Teryn's men" being the only ones allowed in. I'm a bit puzzled by what exactly Logain has planned - I doubt he was actually in contact with the Darkspawn - but it's certainly strongly implied that he intended for the beacon to fail. That would have allowed him to execute his coup without the obvious appearance of treason, which greatly weakened him politically.



Incidentally, if you take Logain as a party member after the Landsmeet, he isn't actually too disagreeable if you learn how his dialog works. I was vaguely sorry when he bought it.

[MadCat221]

Can you really blame Allistair for being the way he is either? He grows up with the impression that he's inconvenient, gets sent away by a shrew of a mother figure, and gets ostracized by everyone at the monastery either because he's nobility or because he's illegitimate. Then he finds a second fatherly figure who is then murdered by proxy by a duplicitous backstabber.

[Zenon]

Sarethus wrote...

Zenon wrote...

What do you mean with "doing nothing"? He lead his army into an almost hopeless battle knowing they were outnumbered. Loghain had a point, but was too proud to accept help from the hated neighbour Orlais. Cailan was much more open to the Orlesians. I think that is why Loghain saw in Cailan a threat to the freedom of Ferelden.

[..]

Hopeless battle? Numbers help a lot in war but they do not outweigh all the other factors every time. In this case if the flanking attack had come as expected the battle would likely have been a victory for Fereldan. Also keep in mind that if you talk to the guard outside the tower just as you come into Ostagar he will mention that Loghain's men are investigating some "Lower Chambers" that they found as they didn't know how far down those chambers went. The guard then states that he did not see any such lower chambers when he was in the tower but "who knows"  so while it's not clear cut that Loghain planned there is enough evidence to indicate it. 

Well, I wrote almost. It seemed obvious to Duncan, that the enemy gets stronger day by day in numbers. Cailan is a bit too optimistic. I'm sure the battle would have been won, if Loghain charged after the beacon was lit. But they didn't have a guarantee. In a way Cailan is responsible for his death himself, since he decided to stand in the front lines. Then again the king in battle with the soldiers gives the army inspiration. That's why I also think, that Loghain is to be made responsible for Cailan's death.

It's quite likely Loghain planned to have Cailan fall in battle. I don't believe he managed to negotiate some plan with the Darkspawn or any of the like. Perhaps he knew or had a hunch, that the tower would be attacked by Darkspawn. All he needed to do is get out of their way...

[Atmosfear3]

Cailan's character is that of a smart and honorable king. You can't expect him to speak about his doubts and worries in front of his men. To hear that from your leader's mouth is a huge blow to morale which would quickly spread to the rest of your army. His enthusiasm helps to keep spirits up which is a quality many leaders should have.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Loved his people enough to charge out of a perfectly defensible fort for the sake of immediate glory?
No thanks, can I get a refund? This king's broken.

Drawing them into the trap? Remeber that part. He did want glory, but he wasn't a moron
And you might want to take a closer look at hte cutscene. he's at the ramparts when the soldiers charge. He ain't charging.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dkwroot wrote...

Cailan was kind and noble, he would have made an awesome knight, but he lacked the tactical mind of a great king. His heart was definitely in the right place and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't like him, but he wasn't the best king and he put a lot of his soldiers in danger with his reckless attitude. He was childish and too eager for glory that he couldn't see the true horrors of war that Loghain witnessed.

A king doesn't need a tactical mind - more of a strategic one.
That said, he didn't put his soldier in needles danger. Dont' forget that the whole setup was Loghains idea and the darkspawn had to be stopped.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Would it? We have no evidence that Cailan wanted to do what was tactically right. By all evidence it seemed that he wanted to have one final showdown with the Blight, forcing Loghain to come up with a strategy that didn't involve hiding in the fort and raining arrows down on the Blight while they bash their heads on the gates.

By all accounts it seems that Cailan bullied Loghain into coming up with a plan that involved drawing out the darkspawn because he wanted a glorious battle, not one won on wits and strategy, but one won through attrition, because that was more glorious. He would've willingly thrown lives away for the sake of legend and his own ego.

And I do not think Cailan wanted to wait at all. He didn't want to wait for Eamon's knights, there was no reason why he would've wanted to wait for Orlesian troops either. He probably brought that up simply to rile up Loghain which seems to be a habit of his.

Eamons troops were delayed. And one cannot wait forever if hte enemy is advancing. Ostagar was a very defensive position and the officer back the camp belived ina  decisive victory even if outnumbered. Loghain had the bulk of the troops with him.

[Pennoyer]

I try to view the game through my character's eyes so I see Cailin a little differently each time. Still, I don't think Cailin was very bright.

[Korva]

cglasgow wrote...

I agree. Cailan was entirely honest, well-meaning, idealistic, and devoid of prejudice of any kind -- which puts him well above the average for kings, even fantasy kings.

Agreed, as well. I liked the poor guy. I loved his reaction to my character, his shock and anger at the news of Howe's betrayal, his earnest promise that justice will be done. And apparently he's just as welcoming to all the other origins, even a "casteless guttertrash" dwarf or a "lowly" elf. Yes, he needs to get his head out of the storybooks and learn that "glory" is often just "gory" with a random "l" thrown in. But his heart is in the right place, and IMO that matters the most.  Breaking a power-wh*ring arrogant ass out of being a power-wh*ring arrogant ass would be rather harder than for our little Golden Boy to learn some more maturity.

I agree that the plan likely could have worked, though obviously it would not have stopped the Blight since the archdemon was still serenading its troops in the Deep Roads. But it would have left the kingdom in a hell of a better state than Loghain's betrayal. Ever since the first trailers with the Ostagar trailers were released, I thought "This is a red herring. They surely won't do anything as blatant and bland as having Loghain betray the son of his best friend!" So much for that. His and Duncan's death in that cutscene was one of the most emotional moments I've had in a game in a while. I actually yelled at the screen there.

Cailan can't have had an easy life, relatively speaking for someone born with not a silver but a golden spoon in his mouth. Mom died early, dad moped for a long time and then ran off on a wild adventure, then dad died too. He's too young for the throne still. And all his life he's been in the shadow of two great heroes. (I'd say three, but of course no one seems to remember Rowan. Women don't matter. Their only purpose is to spread their legs and spit out a son nine months later.) King Maric was so great, Teyrn Logain is so great blah blah blah. Of course the kid feels a desperate need to prove himself.

Modifié par Korva, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[JKhristian]

I think had Cailan survived the battle he would have gone on to be a great king. I truly agree with what has been said earlier. He's young and would have matured. And if he had survived the battle we might have seen a profound change in him once he seen war firsthand.

Modifié par JKhristian, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:30 .

[JKhristian]

Good points Korva, Amagoi. I think some of it is false bravado. Cailan looked to his father and realized he had big shoes to fill. Imagine growing up, people always talking about your father, what a great king and warrior he is, and worrying that you will never measure up. Its hard to live in someones shadow. Cailain, I think, was trying to prove to the kingdom and himself that. There's alot of childish glory seeking but I think there is insecurity there as well.

Modifié par JKhristian, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Herr Uhl]

JKhristian wrote...

Good point Amagoi. I think some of it is false bravado. Cailan looked to his father and realized he had big shoes to fill. Imagine growing up, people always talking about your father, what a great king and warrior he is, and worrying that you will never measure up. Its hard to live in someones shadow. Cailain, I think, was trying to prove to the kingdom and himself that. There's alot of childish glory seeking but I think there is insecurity there as well.

Which makes him even worse of a king. He has a complex character, but still, I wouldn't trust him to lead me to lunch.

[Anton de Staen]

I started to like him just before the ogre crushed him. The guy had guts.

[cglasgow]

GoldenusG wrote...

Who says Anora is a competant Queen?  She does.  And she must be right, because she is a competant Queen.  Because she says so.

In game though, if she were all that good at her job, then why would Ferelden be on the verge of civil war, mere weeks after Cailan croaks?

Because after Cailan croaks Loghain takes over running the country, and whatever his talents as a general might be he is the Worst Politician Evar.

Which leads in to my next comment re: Anora's competence.  Somebody had to be handling the civil administration of the country for the past five years, and it obviously wasn't Loghain.   That leaves either Anora or Cailan himself.   If it was Cailan himself, then obviously the dude was a better king than most people are giving him credit for.   If it was Anora, then she was telling the truth about her skill level.

[Loki330]

To point out, in the game it points out (Codex entry on her?) that she's the admin of the kingdom while hubby goes around playing Hero. More importantly, that it's an open secret that this is so.

[cglasgow]

Of course, given the revelations about Anora in the 'female canine' thread, it turns out that however I pegged her skill level, I was notably off about her ethical level. As in, she apparently don't got any.



So, withdrawing my recommendation for Queen Anora. All hail King Alistair! Sure, the learning period's going to be long and rough, but at least you can trust the guy.

[Kuravid]

Some his naive facial expressions were simply adorable in an excited child kind of way. Beyond that no. Cailan sucks.

[KirbySkywalker]

HE IS #1 KING