324 réponses à ce sujet

[Xusa]

Sethal wrote...

Xusa wrote...

Foulpancake wrote...

seriously the "don't change it for the whiners" crap again? Has Bioware spoken yet? With the VERY well written and thought out "Indoctrination" theory, only a fool would completely dismiss it, and all the hints bioware has thrown out. You have NO IDEA if they are even done yet. All of your whining about "whiners" could be amounting to is you insisting Bioware keep an ending...they never intended on BEING the ending...so chill out, let them speak first

I lie the indoctrination theory. It's a good one. What I'm asking isn't about BioWare leaving the game as it is now. It's about they doing what they want to, and not what the fanbase tells them to.

Sometimes fan influence can be beneficial to an artist.

Arthur Conan Doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes in The Final Problem, outraged fans then wrote to him and his publisher depending he bring Sherlock back from the dead. He then decided to rewrite the ending of that book.  Doyle later went on to write The Hound of the Baskervilles.

Don't underestimate the whiners... fans.

Yes, and it was a terrible excuse.

[Deaddude221]

All of this fighting back and forth ... sadly is the reason that the gaming demographic is never taken as a serious consumer sector.Let simply break this down into a business prospective shall we (this at least seems logical in the confines of the capitalism that most gaming communities operate within)

Bioware certainly owns this game, there is no dispute on that matter and certainly have no requirement to give the fan base what they are asking for; that no one can dispute. It is a matter of fact that they do not have to.

But if we take a look at historical evidence of what could be considered art or entertainment we find countless cases of changes being made for the Patron. Now as the consumers, we effectively are the patrons; a company makes a video game and wishes to sell it to us so that they can make money and continue making video games. Now if the patron is upset they have the right to ask for a change at no cost or a cost depending upon the change requested to the art. Yet if the artist or in this case the game creator wishes to maintain their artistic integrity then they have the right to do so as well however in the future we the patron or now called consumers will chose another artist or creator for our patronage because we no longer like the product or the lack of respect from the previous creator.

The discontent is viewed by other creators and they then learn from the issue that the consumer had with the previous creator. So the next creator caters a little more so that they have the competitive edge over the other creators, this is simply the basic idea of capitalism; competition.

So in other words Bioware makes a game that the majority of the fanbase is not pleased with. So they have the options of maintaining their artistic vision or simply listening and making the requested changes or something similar. If not they do risk business lose on the grounds that the unhappy consumer will look to other options in the future. Whether this be a detrimental majority of the fans or a small group of discontent fans; each person has a right to voice the opinion and if not appeased then competition comes into play.

We have the right to ask for a different ending if we so chose and the assault against those that do wish for a change or those that don't wish for a change by the other side does nothing but invalidate both claims as it then turns to what this thread has turned to and that is petty arguments back and forth that get nowhere fast.

So look a this in the most simplistic way. And stop the warring or the gaming community will not be taken as a serious venue of entertainment and art for even longer than it already is set to.

I know this is awfully long but it is simple and it has been said many times before by many other people who have a real voice and influence within the community but please take these things seriously or else everything is for not and we will be exploited in the future as well. 

Modifié par Deaddude221, 15 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[Xusa]

www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/03/13/why-fan-service-is-good-business/2/

Someone posted thisarticle somewhere in this forum and I find that the author of this article wanted to say this: "BioWare, whatever plans you had in mind, if they had anything to do with the endings now you're blown because I made an article saying that all you want is to exploit your costumers even though you didn't mean that. Haha suck it, ****s!"

ME2 had an epilogue and no one argued. If ME3 happen to have an epilogue DLC, everyone will yell at EA and say they suck because yes.

[Jjynn]

I said this in another thread, but it seems relevant to the OP's stance as well.

Hello all,

In my non-Shepard, galaxy-saving persona, I am artist. An illustrator to more precise. As someone of an artistic bent, I feel that there needs to be some clarification regarding an Artistic Vision and Consumer Expectation.

In my life, there are two kinds of artistic work that I produce. There's stuff that I draw for the sheer joy of drawing it. I have tons of sketchbooks filled with my ideas, concepts and little scribbles. And there's the art I produce for my employer, made to their specifications and requirements.

Now, if anyone goes through my sketchbook and looks through it, they can have the whole range of opinions about what I produce. Its not as though I'm paying them for their opinions or they're paying for the personal work in my sketchbook. Its just what I make, and I make it for me. So if they don't like it, they can happily sod off and find art they do like.

On the other hand, my employer expect me to produce for them what they ask for. And as they pay me for it, I am going to give it to them. My employer says "Draw me bugs in exciting poses." Do I particualarly want to draw bugs in any poses? Most of the time, not really, save on a kind of abstract personal challenge level. But I draw what they ask for because they pay to produce the work they want. And I want to be paid.

I see several posts about people saying to respect BioWare's Artistic Vision. And I would totally agree with that if this game were free. Its the same perspective any person can have if they walk into an art museum and judge the art that hangs on the wall, free to all the viewing public..

But we are not casual purveyors of the Mass Effect franchise. We are the financially invested memebers of the Mass Effect franchise. Not just in the the $60 (per game) that we have paid to have have the games, but in the time we've taken, often in multiple play throughs.

BioWare wasn't giving us an gaming experience. They were selling us a gaming experience. As the people who paid for the experience. we are more than entitled to demand that our money is used to give us what we want.

Thank you for your time and patience,

-Jjynn

[Xusa]

I understand you as I work as Graphic Designer and I also have to do as asked by the costumer/employer. But we're not talking about paintings/drawings etc. We're talking about video-games. And as much as I believe costumer opinion matters and that they should be taken into consideration, people are raging over something that is not yet complete. They are saying a music that has 3 minutes suck only after hearing 1minute of it. The game will have it's DLCs and may or may not have something important added up to the scene. Let them finish their art and only after then let us complain of how bad it is (if it is).

[the red boon]

Xusa wrote...

I understand you as I work as Graphic Designer and I also have to do as asked by the costumer/employer. But we're not talking about paintings/drawings etc. We're talking about video-games. And as much as I believe costumer opinion matters and that they should be taken into consideration, people are raging over something that is not yet complete. They are saying a music that has 3 minutes suck only after hearing 1minute of it. The game will have it's DLCs and may or may not have something important added up to the scene. Let them finish their art and only after then let us complain of how bad it is (if it is).

Why not show our annoyance now that they put out an unfinished product to us. I paid a hundred bucks for it and I'm not happy with it. Now I'm pathetically waiting for a DLC that will probably cost money to justify my investment.

[Xusa]

Welcome to 2010, you're a bit too late as we're already in 2012

[Zolt51]

I agree with the OP that retconning anything is not the right solution at this point.

I'll be happy with just any form of explanation for that last normandy scene, ranging from an interactive sequence (Non-shepard POV?) to a video to a box of text, as long as there's a credible explanation.

I'll even count myself fully satisfied if some of the Bioware staff would just come down on IRC for an off-the-record Q&A session with fans.

Modifié par Zolt51, 15 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[TcomJ]

That argument can easily be destroyed with this....:

Hello all,

In my non-Shepard, galaxy-saving persona, I am artist. An illustrator to more precise. As someone of an artistic bent, I feel that there needs to be some clarification regarding an Artistic Vision and Consumer Expectation.

In my life, there are two kinds of artistic work that I produce. There's stuff that I draw for the sheer joy of drawing it. I have tons of sketchbooks filled with my ideas, concepts and little scribbles. And there's the art I produce for my employer, made to their specifications and requirements.

Now, if anyone goes through my sketchbook and looks through it, they can have the whole range of opinions about what I produce. Its not as though I'm paying them for their opinions or they're paying for the personal work in my sketchbook. Its just what I make, and I make it for me. So if they don't like it, they can happily sod off and find art they do like.

On the other hand, my employer expect me to produce for them what they ask for. And as they pay me for it, I am going to give it to them. My employer says "Draw me bugs in exciting poses." Do I particualarly want to draw bugs in any poses? Most of the time, not really, save on a kind of abstract personal challenge level. But I draw what they ask for because they pay to produce the work they want. And I want to be paid.

I see several posts about people saying to respect BioWare's Artistic Vision. And I would totally agree with that if this game were free. Its the same perspective any person can have if they walk into an art museum and judge the art that hangs on the wall, free to all the viewing public..

But we are not casual purveyors of the Mass Effect franchise. We are the financially invested memebers of the Mass Effect franchise. Not just in the the $60 (per game) that we have paid to have have the games, but in the time we've taken, often in multiple play throughs.

BioWare wasn't giving us an gaming experience. They were selling us a gaming experience. As the people who paid for the experience. we are more than entitled to demand that our money is used to give us what we want.

Thank you for your time and patience,

-Jjynn
http://social.biowar...index/9975115/1

[Zolt51]

TcomJ wrote...

On the other hand, my employer expect me to produce for them what they ask for. And as they pay me for it, I am going to give it to them. My employer says "Draw me bugs in exciting poses." Do I particualarly want to draw bugs in any poses? Most of the time, not really, save on a kind of abstract personal challenge level. But I draw what they ask for because they pay to produce the work they want. And I want to be paid.

Making a work of art for a commission and a company making a wort of art for the general public are two entirely different things, morally and legally.

In the former case, you answer to your employer and have been given a very specific set of requirements.

In the latter, you are answerable only to your shareholders, and they mostly just want you to make a lot of money.
Saying that the company has a moral obligation to deliver exactly what you want is a fallacy. After all you bought it off the shelf, so it must have been what you wanted, right?

On the other hand, if a company makes false advertisement and you buy their product on false premises, and have definite proof for that, you have been very clearly wronged, so that's a valid argument.

[Slayer299]

Xusa wrote...

ME2 had an epilogue and no one argued. If ME3 happen to have an epilogue DLC, everyone will yell at EA and say they suck because yes.

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot with that example OP because yes, in ME2 we did have an ending with an epilogue, we knew what the end was and what was coming down the pipe ahead, it could be no clearer. ME3 did not have an epilogue, we did not see any resolution and a DLC to give people that would suck beacuse that would mean we were not sold a game in a complete form so they (BW/EA) could sell it to us as a DLC to suck more money from their loyal fans.

[Slayer299]

Zolt51 wrote...
On the other hand, if a company makes false advertisement and you buy their product on false premises, and have definite proof for that, you have been very clearly wronged, so that's a valid argument.

So where does that put it when you have all these quotes from the devs prior to the release of ME3;

C."-Casey Hudson
http://www.oxm.co.uk...-sophisticated/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…"-Mike Gamble.

"Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending. BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised."
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

"Now, BioWare Co-Founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has talked about the ending, saying that “Pretty much everything that people want to see wrapped up, or to be given answers, will be.”
http://news.softpedi...ys-255935.shtml

Three endings that are fundamentally the same minus the color difference are not what I would call "many different endings".

[DarthLaxian]

Xusa wrote...

stevesyanks17hotmail.com wrote...

Don't change a thing Bioware.

Also, no business will be lost. These whiners will buy any DLC, and they certainly will buy ME4, or ME: Miranda or whatever.

Exactly. It's just like Star Wars. Everybody hates Star Wars for Epi 1,2 and 3 and yet, everyone went to the cinemas to see them.

And troll? Just because I disagree with you? Grow up.

so:

both of you trolls call me a whiner? - well from the likes of you (sometimes I really do admire the ones that are dim - for the likes of you they ruined ME for their loyal fanbase that signed on years ago (some even with Baldures Gate, some - like me - with the first KOTOR) and added things like "action mode" (useless bullcrap IMHO) and cut back on the voice-acting (less talk choices and investigate options etc.) - as they can enjoy it if something truly beautiful (ME was - it had it's faults, but overall it was a beautiful science fiction universe!) is ruined...you remind me of people cheering while being on a ship, if someone drills/blows a whole into it!) this is a compliment, I think I like you *hug* 

you are like a few dissonant voices in choir that is thousands strong (like the rachni that are indoctrinated and remade into husks...maybe someone would be thankfull, too if you just held your breath, i mean, voicing your opinion is OK IMHO, but the how determines the respons you get (calling us whiners for example) and asking for something not to be "changed" (we do not ask for these endings to be taken out, because as strange as it sounds, if you start with ME3, these kind of make sense in a crazy sort of way...but not if you know the lore beginning from ME1, then the books (got them, will read them soon), the comics etc. - but we do ask for variety and:

for our choices to MATTER - which they don't ATM IMHO...i mean, every stupid grunt could make the final choice instead of a character we had years in the making (in some cases) - or to say otherwise:

a computergame like an RPG should not just concerne itself with what the artists want (it is no book/film or TV-Show), but it should cater to the user, too - otherwise i can just read a book instead of playing a game were I have choices like killing wrex, leaving grunt in the "box", bartering away legion, killing someone or letting them go (rachni-queen...also they cheapened that, because that choice has been devalued in ME3....without letting her live there should not be rachni in the game IMHO!), helping someone with questionable morals (TIM and the collector base!)....so yeah, they can not just muck that all around without someone (US!) calling them out on it and rightly so!

greetings LAX
ps: as for Star Wars Episode 1, 2 and 3 - i dislike one (the podracing stuff - the rest is pretty good!), but two and three i love (three is my favourite from all of star wars, with episode 5 a close runner up, then episode 2, then episode 6, then episode 4 and lastly episode 1)

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 15 mars 2012 - 06:14 .

[Jjynn]

Xusa wrote...

I understand you as I work as Graphic Designer and I also have to do as asked by the costumer/employer. But we're not talking about paintings/drawings etc. We're talking about video-games. And as much as I believe costumer opinion matters and that they should be taken into consideration, people are raging over something that is not yet complete. They are saying a music that has 3 minutes suck only after hearing 1minute of it. The game will have it's DLCs and may or may not have something important added up to the scene. Let them finish their art and only after then let us complain of how bad it is (if it is).

So you're suggesting I paid for an incomplete game?  And I should be satisfied with that?  BioWare's stance on DLC has been that the DLC is not necessary to get the complete game experience.  

I can't quite see any justificaton for buying "endings" to a game.  Games should be complete and as BioWare puts it, DLC should be the sugar  on top.  

[Xusa]

Slayer299 wrote...

Xusa wrote...

ME2 had an epilogue and no one argued. If ME3 happen to have an epilogue DLC, everyone will yell at EA and say they suck because yes.

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot with that example OP because yes, in ME2 we did have an ending with an epilogue, we knew what the end was and what was coming down the pipe ahead, it could be no clearer. ME3 did not have an epilogue, we did not see any resolution and a DLC to give people that would suck beacuse that would mean we were not sold a game in a complete form so they (BW/EA) could sell it to us as a DLC to suck more money from their loyal fans.

i saw no sense in what you posted, I'll try to answer to to what (I believe) I understood. If I'm wrong, please clarify.

Right, ME3 doesn't have an epilogue the same way ME2 didn't when it was released, the epilogue came after as DLC. And how clear was that? Are you clairvoyant and saw they were making an epilogue for ME2 as DLC? Yes, we saw a resolution: Reapers gone dead, threat ended, mission accomplished, the game is complete. Any DLC that comes will only be an "aftermath" or will be something optional. Legally and morally ME3 is complete and good. Anything that goes after that will be optional/epilogue. If we find that this end is a dream and something is bound to happen next. The game is still finished. There are countless movies, for exemple that ends without an ending, leaving "in the air" what is happening or can happen.

[Warrior Craess]

Xusa wrote...

 And as much as I believe costumer opinion matters and that they should be taken into consideration, people are raging over something that is not yet complete. .

So basically your supporting an incomplete game at release? That video games do not have a requirement to tell, at the very least, a complete chapter of story?  Again this isn't them deciding that the ending is too special, and to big for one game. This is them presenting this game as the conclusion to the story and failing to do so.  No mention of an ME 4 was made. As I recall ME 3 was know to be in the works before ME2 was released - and the final scene of ME 2 made it abuntantly clear that  that another sequal was coming. This ending is so poorly done, that I am not sure if the story is over or not. Should I expect another (in)complete Video Game?  Will the DLC even be about Shepard?  

Again why should I continue to provide a company that leaves me with more questions than answer? Why should I support this - if they did indeed release an incomplete game on purpose to make you buy the DLC -company financially if then do not provide me with a pleasing product? 

[Xusa]

Slayer299 wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...
On the other hand, if a company makes false advertisement and you buy their product on false premises, and have definite proof for that, you have been very clearly wronged, so that's a valid argument.

So where does that put it when you have all these quotes from the devs prior to the release of ME3;

C."-Casey Hudson
http://www.oxm.co.uk...-sophisticated/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…"-Mike Gamble.

"Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending. BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised."
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

"Now, BioWare Co-Founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has talked about the ending, saying that “Pretty much everything that people want to see wrapped up, or to be given answers, will be.”
http://news.softpedi...ys-255935.shtml

Three endings that are fundamentally the same minus the color difference are not what I would call "many different endings".

There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

Jjyinn wrote...

So you're suggesting I paid for an incomplete game?  And I should be
satisfied with that?  BioWare's stance on DLC has been that the DLC is
not necessary to get the complete game experience.  

I can't
quite see any justificaton for buying "endings" to a game.  Games should
be complete and as BioWare puts it, DLC should be the sugar  on top.  

No, the game is complete (At least that's how I see it). What is not completed is the Mass Effect universe. And just as they can make comics that tell tales about something in the universe of a game, they can make DLCs to do the same.

DarthLaxian wrote...

*huge post*

I didn't understand much of what you said, but some of what you said I've already answered to and I'm tired of repeating myself.

[Legendaryred]

Fail troll 0/10

[Xusa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Xusa wrote...

 And as much as I believe costumer opinion matters and that they should be taken into consideration, people are raging over something that is not yet complete. .

So basically your supporting an incomplete game at release? That video games do not have a requirement to tell, at the very least, a complete chapter of story?  Again this isn't them deciding that the ending is too special, and to big for one game. This is them presenting this game as the conclusion to the story and failing to do so.  No mention of an ME 4 was made. As I recall ME 3 was know to be in the works before ME2 was released - and the final scene of ME 2 made it abuntantly clear that  that another sequal was coming. This ending is so poorly done, that I am not sure if the story is over or not. Should I expect another (in)complete Video Game?  Will the DLC even be about Shepard?  

Again why should I continue to provide a company that leaves me with more questions than answer? Why should I support this - if they did indeed release an incomplete game on purpose to make you buy the DLC -company financially if then do not provide me with a pleasing product? 

Were the tales of Middle Earth or even The Lord of The Rings completed when Tolkien finished The Fellowship of the Ring? Did you complain for having to buy all three books to know the full story? Did you complain to have to buy even more books to know everything about Middle Earth even after The Return of The King being the last chapter of LOTR? (I mean... if you're a LOTR fan, ofc)

[Xusa]

Legendaryred wrote...

Fail troll 0/10

Except for you and some minority of fellows, I see no trolls in this thread. We're all having a nice discussion here.

[PixelGorilla]

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

[Xusa]

PixelGorilla wrote...

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

Can't help it if you disagree with the truth.

[Pelle6666]

No! Mass effect cant live on, because they killed the entire universe by destroying the mass relays!

[the red boon]

Xusa wrote...

PixelGorilla wrote...

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

Can't help it if you disagree with the truth.

The truth is there is only two different endings the reapers fly away or get blown up.

[Xusa]

Pelle6666 wrote...

No! Mass effect cant live on, because they killed the entire universe by destroying the mass relays!

FTL, scientists, knowledge. Tired of repeating myself and what others already said.