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[Xusa]

the red boon wrote...

Xusa wrote...

PixelGorilla wrote...

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

Can't help it if you disagree with the truth.

The truth is there is only two different endings the reapers fly away or get blown up.

Ok. See it as you will.

[j78]

Mass effect is a consumer product that’s selling point is to have an interactive story that we the players control .bio ware has failed to live up to it’s promise to it’s costumers . If this was any other consumer product there would be no argument as to what we should except out of it. If they can change the books second printings they can change this dreadful ending .

[Brian.V3]

PixelGorilla wrote...

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

Different variations of one ending where half of it is actually the same is not what I would call 16 different endings. 

But the best part of them all is where Mike Gamble gave out this will not be "Lost" type of ending yet it practically plays out similar to "Lost". Practically stating there won't be more questions than answers at the end of the day. Cause even though there were answers answered throughout the game. It sort of reopens those answers with more questions after that ending hence we ended with more questions than answers eventually. 

And finally one of the co-founders practically stated there would be closure at the end. Even if you liked the end of this game you have to admit there is no closure because all is left to the imagination according to what Casey just recently said in an interview. 

Yeah it's sad when you start painting these guys as politicians. 

[Warrior Craess]

The Lord of the Rings was 1 book
that had to be split into 3 parts, due to publication limits of the time. There
was no significant time lag between them as far as story line goes. There was
no possibility of the ring being passed off to another protagonist if Frodo
died. As for the Similrillian it was the prequel to the story, but in no way
was it required ready to enjoy the Lord of the Rings books.

Yes, the tale of middle
earth was completed when Tolkien finished lord of the Rings. All of the
Characters had closure. Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Elves leave middle
earth. The Ring was destroyed and the great evil vanquished forever. Aragorn
and his elven lady (now mortal) had a child an ruled well for a couple of
centuries, The shire was saved, Suaraman was killed, Legolas and Gimli remained
friends until they died. Most definitively Tolkien provided Closure. And he did
it after the climactic battle. He is about as good an example of what we should
have gotten as it gets. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 15 mars 2012 - 06:40 .

[Warrior Craess]

Wow very interesting difference in formatting when you use Word to reorganizes your reply...

[Xusa]

Brian.V3 wrote...

PixelGorilla wrote...

Xusa wrote...
There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

My goodness, what awful logic.

Different variations of one ending where half of it is actually the same is not what I would call 16 different endings. 

But the best part of them all is where Mike Gamble gave out this will not be "Lost" type of ending yet it practically plays out similar to "Lost". Practically stating there won't be more questions than answers at the end of the day. Cause even though there were answers answered throughout the game. It sort of reopens those answers with more questions after that ending hence we ended with more questions than answers eventually. 

And finally one of the co-founders practically stated there would be closure at the end. Even if you liked the end of this game you have to admit there is no closure because all is left to the imagination according to what Casey just recently said in an interview. 

Yeah it's sad when you start painting these guys as politicians. 

You do have a point when you say that there are lots of questions and probably ME3 gave us more of them than gave us answers. But I don't find it bad. Sure there are questions that you'd  normally have answered (like how the crews got into normandy), but the game did gave closure as to reapers destroying life or not be if by you destroying them, controling them, mixing people into themselves and... (what?) or they actually destroying you. What is not closed, as I said before is the universe of Mass Effect. And as you all well stated there is still some things to know about that involves more the ME universe than involves Shepard.

[Xusa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

The Lord of the Rings was 1 book
that had to be split into 3 parts, due to publication limits of the time. There
was no significant time lag between them as far as story line goes. There was
no possibility of the ring being passed off to another protagonist if Frodo
died. As for the Similrillian it was the prequel to the story, but in no way
was it required ready to enjoy the Lord of the Rings books.

Yes, the tale of middle
earth was completed when Tolkien finished lord of the Rings. All of the
Characters had closure. Frodo, Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Elves leave middle
earth. The Ring was destroyed and the great evil vanquished forever. Aragorn
and his elven lady (now mortal) had a child an ruled well for a couple of
centuries, The shire was saved, Suaraman was killed, Legolas and Gimli remained
friends until they died. Most definitively Tolkien provided Closure. And he did
it after the climactic battle. He is about as good an example of what we should
have gotten as it gets. 

Middle Earth isn't complete with LOTR. To complete Middle Earth you still need The Hobbit etc.

[Warrior Craess]

Ahh the Hobbit, the book that started it all. It was originally a stand alone story, and it did indeed provide closure for the characters with in. It's popularity led to the producers requesting a sequel. However changes had to be made to it in order to properly set up the sequel, thus a second, slightly different The Hobbit, was printed. Rather an example of what we're trying to accomplish here.

No one is denying that the vast majority of ME3 is beautifully written and highly compelling story telling. It's that this amazing story is for all apparent purposes ended, with out any closure to any of the characters. Something that Tolkien never did. He always provided closure to the characters in the story. (Until he re-wrote some of that closure out in order to provide better and more fulfilling closure)

[ZombieChad]

To complete Middle Earth you need the Silmarillion, but don't go there... it's a dark dirty boring place...
As to the matter at hand, I liked the ending even though I cocked up and went to the paragon option smugly thinking time to kill the reapers off, only to take them over. That puzzled me that it was the paragon option as surely that really was a prime example of “the end justifying the means”. I suppose if that indoctrination theory is right I'm beyond Indoctrinated, I’m a husk. I auto-piloted to it! (Lesson learned: No matter if it’s a conclusion to trilogy that I love, I’m not staying up over 24hrs to complete the game), I reloaded and started again having had a coffee that was that strong the spoon stayed upright. I got same end different colour which didn’t surprise me that much as that was what happened in the previous games (eg: Collector base: Blue blast/Red Blast). I liked that Shepard had to die to beat the Reaper’s, I’ve been expecting it since the first game and it added a bit of sadness that the one person who really deserved, above everyone else, to live on in a post Reaper invasion galaxy is the one person who won’t, as it is their sacrifice that is the catalyst for the change.
 
That said I can't agree with you, the game is in need of cavity filler to deal with some of the bigger plot holes. As examples, Harbinger decimates the last mad dash to the conduit mk2. Why does it teleport my team onto the Normandy? My team was Liara and Garrus, and after Shepard stood up, I was horrified that my love interest (Liara) and pet Attack-Turian had been annihilated, but I was impressed as well that the team I had taken had been slaughtered pitilessly like everyone else around me and was quite a visceral reminder that we’re pretty naff compared to Reapers in a stand up fight. Then after I activated the Apocalypse-O-Matic, Liara gets off the Normandy with Garrus in the background... all of a sudden emotional impact was dealt with and confusion set in.  The other one is why/how did Joker accidentally fly to the edge of the solar system and get caught in the Mass Relay system? I say accidentally as he's best pilot in the fleet with an AI partner. Perhaps it was the shock of Liara and Garrus teleporting onto the ship. Getting lost that badly doesn't quite fit.

The changes I’d like to see would be simple in scope but hard to implement I imagine (I’ve no idea about game development). First have the Normandy crash in system such as Earth (a Reaper drops the Normandy before being shut down/blown up etc and crashes in a jungle) or for a more dramatic re-scripting have it land on Mars being chased down (maybe as the last remnant of your armada) before they go home/blow up/cuddle their newfound friends. The second one is by whatever magic happens inside the Xbox to drive a game have it select team members who weren’t with you when you took a laser to the face appear in the end scene.
The game is good as it is, but with a bit of work to deal with the obvious plot holes that snuck through quality control, could set it alongside the other two as incredible.

After reading the digital trends interview with Casey Hudson, I got the feeling that Bioware is focusing a bit too much on the DLC side that they have planned for the game rather than the game itself, which possibly explains how the plot holes. Unlike Mass Effect 2 where I bought everything, I will be taking all DLC on a case by case basis. Now if that’s the attitude I have to it and I LIKE the endings, I don’t think they’ll sell as much DLC as they expect. I did like that he mention’s it as a game people will remember

[Jackal7713]

Tequila Man wrote...

http://social.biowar...5/index/9851623

No stones. Just... points. It is their artistic vision. A vision that was supposed to be ours, too.

I'm not going to claim its art becuase then certain rules to the sale of art applies, like delivering a finished product minus pre-orders, dlc, and online passes. Also when you buy art, your able to view it entirely before buying it. Just like in a gallery. For example they don't just sell you the canvas with no paint or frame for that matter.

[Slayer299]

Slayer399 wrote...

You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot with that example OP because yes, in ME2 we did have an ending with an epilogue, we knew what the end was and what was coming down the pipe ahead, it could be no clearer. ME3 did not have an epilogue, we did not see any resolution and a DLC to give people that would suck beacuse that would mean we were not sold a game in a complete form so they (BW/EA) could sell it to us as a DLC to suck more money from their loyal fans.

Xusa wrote...

i saw no sense in what you posted, I'll try to answer to to what (I believe) I understood. If I'm wrong, please clarify.

Right, ME3 doesn't have an epilogue the same way ME2 didn't when it was released, the epilogue came after as DLC. And how clear was that? Are you clairvoyant and saw they were making an epilogue for ME2 as DLC? Yes, we saw a resolution: Reapers gone dead, threat ended, mission accomplished, the game is complete. Any DLC that comes will only be an "aftermath" or will be something optional. Legally and morally ME3 is complete and good. Anything that goes after that will be optional/epilogue. If we find that this end is a dream and something is bound to happen next. The game is still finished. There are countless movies, for exemple that ends without an ending, leaving "in the air" what is happening or can happen.

My point was that ME 2 did not need DLC to make sense of the ending, it was clear right there. You knew the Collectors were defeated (base destroyed or not) and the Reapers were coming but you seem to have some intel based on the data pad you were looking at. The story didn't tell you a lot, but the ending was enough it didn't leave you confused.

If ME3's ending is not complete and the ending was indeed cut from the game and into a DLC that would make the game legally incomplete, morals have nothing to do with this, the company is not "morally" obligated to do anything. And yes, the ending did leave LOTS of people confused since we do not know what happened to anyone (companions and galaxy at large. Endings in a trilogy are supposed to tie things up, not leave you with more questions and no sense of resolution.

[Slayer299]

Zolt51 wrote...
On the other hand, if a company makes false advertisement and you buy their product on false premises, and have definite proof for that, you have been very clearly wronged, so that's a valid argument.

Slayer299 wrote...
So where does that put it when you have all these quotes from the devs prior to the release of ME3;

C."-Casey Hudson
http://www.oxm.co.uk...-sophisticated/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…"-Mike Gamble.

"Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending. BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised."
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

"Now, BioWare Co-Founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has talked about the ending, saying that “Pretty much everything that people want to see wrapped up, or to be given answers, will be.”
http://news.softpedi...ys-255935.shtml

Three endings that are fundamentally the same minus the color difference are not what I would call "many different endings".

Xusa wrote...

There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

16?? Where do you get 16? There are 3 with 2 bad for destroy and control and merge which makes for 5 or 6 if I'm missing one. Destroy just reapers, destroy *everything* including the Reapers, control the reapers, merge with the Reapers. Please give me the details on the other 11 as I'm highly interested in hearing this or at least a link..

Modifié par Slayer299, 15 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[jedierick]

Xusa wrote...

So there are people talking crap about the ending and saying the series doesn't deserve that or w/e, they're going as far as to do this www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-petition-raises-40k-criticisms.aspx (That's a good way to make your bull**** worth something, at least).

But I wanted to ask you: Don't listen. It is not to listen because the story is yours, you are the creatores or w/e. Besides all crap they are asking for there is one thing I almost agree with them. We need to know how our actions throughout the series changed the galaxy, and how will it be done? Not patching the story, but with a sequel. And that's why you won't listen, because this game has everything in it to have a sequel where everything made by Shepard will be accounted for.

I know, the mass relays were destroyed. So what? There is nothing stopping BioWare from creating a game that takes place on a single system (or a couple of them, since you can travel through near systems using FTL travel.

I would go as far as to say that nothing stops BioWare from creating a game that will take place in multiple systems separately that in the end will be united by some sort of discovery or whatsoever.

Shepard's story is (almost) over. Face it. But Mass Effect can still live after Shepard's event. There will also be more to the story as DLCs will come and so far we don't actually know how Shepard's story will REALLY end.

So I am asking once again. Please, BioWare, do what you want to do with the game and don't listen to them. Because so far, Mass Effect has been one of the best franchises I've played these years.

<now you can throw the stones at me>

EDIT : changed title from all caps to normal. Sorry about that.

I respectfully disagree with everythign you said. You assume to much. Besides, Bioware DOES listen to its fans. There is nothing wrong with taking input to improve or change a product.

[Xusa]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ahh the Hobbit, the book that started it all. It was originally a stand alone story, and it did indeed provide closure for the characters with in. It's popularity led to the producers requesting a sequel. However changes had to be made to it in order to properly set up the sequel, thus a second, slightly different The Hobbit, was printed. Rather an example of what we're trying to accomplish here.

No one is denying that the vast majority of ME3 is beautifully written and highly compelling story telling. It's that this amazing story is for all apparent purposes ended, with out any closure to any of the characters. Something that Tolkien never did. He always provided closure to the characters in the story. (Until he re-wrote some of that closure out in order to provide better and more fulfilling closure)

THe same way the Mass Effect brings closure to Shepard's story regarding saving the galaxy against the reapers.

[deathscythe517]

The difference between art and video games is that art isn't an interactive pass time indulged by many people and with art you see it before purchasing, with games and movies? You don't realize you got a steaming pile of crap in your lap until you've forked over the cash.

That is the difference between art and video games, video games are not and never will be art, they can contain artistic elements, but they will not ever be considered art. When a game is released and it's broken as all hell it is our job to complain about them and give the company feedback, so what's so different from troubleshooting to pointing out how badly thought out a story is?

[Xusa]

Slayer299 wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...
On the other hand, if a company makes false advertisement and you buy their product on false premises, and have definite proof for that, you have been very clearly wronged, so that's a valid argument.

Slayer299 wrote...
So where does that put it when you have all these quotes from the devs prior to the release of ME3;

C."-Casey Hudson
http://www.oxm.co.uk...-sophisticated/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…"-Mike Gamble.

"Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending. BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised."
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

"Now, BioWare Co-Founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has talked about the ending, saying that “Pretty much everything that people want to see wrapped up, or to be given answers, will be.”
http://news.softpedi...ys-255935.shtml

Three endings that are fundamentally the same minus the color difference are not what I would call "many different endings".

Xusa wrote...

There are 16 different endings, even if all of them have the same feel to them.

16?? Where do you get 16? There are 3 with 2 bad for destroy and control and merge which makes for 5 or 6 if I'm missing one. Destroy just reapers, destroy *everything* including the Reapers, control the reapers, merge with the Reapers. Please give me the details on the other 11 as I'm highly interested in hearing this or at least a link..

I don't actually know, but it has been said in several places (youtube, kotaku, forums, etc) that there are 16 different endings.

[deathscythe517]

Xusa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ahh the Hobbit, the book that started it all. It was originally a stand alone story, and it did indeed provide closure for the characters with in. It's popularity led to the producers requesting a sequel. However changes had to be made to it in order to properly set up the sequel, thus a second, slightly different The Hobbit, was printed. Rather an example of what we're trying to accomplish here.

No one is denying that the vast majority of ME3 is beautifully written and highly compelling story telling. It's that this amazing story is for all apparent purposes ended, with out any closure to any of the characters. Something that Tolkien never did. He always provided closure to the characters in the story. (Until he re-wrote some of that closure out in order to provide better and more fulfilling closure)

THe same way the Mass Effect brings closure to Shepard's story regarding saving the galaxy against the reapers.

I would also like to point out to you that there are not sixteen endings, there are exactly six ending cinematics, either you're being thick on purpose or just trying to get a rise. I've respectfully disagreed and conceded points to people far more polite than you but this is borderline insanity. The six ending cinematics are identical save for minor element changes, the 'sixteen' endings? Randomly sorted depending on if you saved the collectors base or not.

[Xusa]

jedierick wrote...

I respectfully disagree with everythign you said. You assume to much. Besides, Bioware DOES listen to its fans. There is nothing wrong with taking input to improve or change a product.

Assume too much?

Slayer299 wrote...


My point was that ME 2 did not need
DLC to make sense of the ending, it was clear right there. You knew the
Collectors were defeated (base destroyed or not) and the Reapers were
coming but you seem to have some intel based on the data pad you were
looking at. The story didn't tell you a lot, but the ending was enough
it didn't leave you confused.

If ME3's ending is not complete
and the ending was indeed cut from the game and into a DLC that would
make the game legally incomplete, morals have nothing to do with this,
the company is not "morally" obligated to do anything. And yes, the
ending did leave LOTS of people confused since we do not know what
happened to anyone (companions and galaxy at large. Endings in a trilogy
are supposed to tie things up, not leave you with more questions and no
sense of resolution.

ME3 does not need DLC to make sense of the fact that the reapers aren't a threat anymore. At least in my story they're not just gone, they're dead.

[MadMatt910]

Xusa wrote...

So there are people talking crap about the ending and saying the series doesn't deserve that or w/e, they're going as far as to do this www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-petition-raises-40k-criticisms.aspx (That's a good way to make your bull**** worth something, at least).

But I wanted to ask you: Don't listen. It is not to listen because the story is yours, you are the creatores or w/e. Besides all crap they are asking for there is one thing I almost agree with them. We need to know how our actions throughout the series changed the galaxy, and how will it be done? Not patching the story, but with a sequel. And that's why you won't listen, because this game has everything in it to have a sequel where everything made by Shepard will be accounted for.

I know, the mass relays were destroyed. So what? There is nothing stopping BioWare from creating a game that takes place on a single system (or a couple of them, since you can travel through near systems using FTL travel.

I would go as far as to say that nothing stops BioWare from creating a game that will take place in multiple systems separately that in the end will be united by some sort of discovery or whatsoever.

Shepard's story is (almost) over. Face it. But Mass Effect can still live after Shepard's event. There will also be more to the story as DLCs will come and so far we don't actually know how Shepard's story will REALLY end.

So I am asking once again. Please, BioWare, do what you want to do with the game and don't listen to them. Because so far, Mass Effect has been one of the best franchises I've played these years.

<now you can throw the stones at me>

EDIT : changed title from all caps to normal. Sorry about that.

Riddle me these:
How can Sheaprd breath in space?
How come when the mass relays
explode the universe isn't wiped out as in arrival? (different type of
explosion answer has no supporting evidence before someone chips in with
that)
How come the catalyst looks like the child?
Where is Joker
going, where does he land, how does he survive the crash, why doesn't
suddently dropping out of FTL travel kill the crew as in the codex
states it should?
Why are my squad from Earth now on the Normandy?
How does Anderson come into the citadel behind you and end up a significant distance in front of you?
Why
wouldn't the reapers tell organics not to make synthetics, rather than
forming an elaborate harvesting cycle every 50,000 years?
Why doesn't Shepard mention to the catalyst the possible peace with the geth, or other ais such as edi.
How
can the DNA of one man combine organic DNA with synthetics? (bearing in
mind synthetics wont have DNA as it is an inneffective way of keeping
genetic information with high fidelity)
How does Shepard live/get
back to earth following destroying the citadel/if he is still on the
citadel, why is it now made of concrete?

Well not even get into
what happened to dark energy and why its built up over 3 games then
suddenly dropped. Plus if its left unresolved every sun will die faster
(there 2 already in ME2), so any choice will be completely irrelevant...

[Xusa]

deathscythe517 wrote...

Xusa wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Ahh the Hobbit, the book that started it all. It was originally a stand alone story, and it did indeed provide closure for the characters with in. It's popularity led to the producers requesting a sequel. However changes had to be made to it in order to properly set up the sequel, thus a second, slightly different The Hobbit, was printed. Rather an example of what we're trying to accomplish here.

No one is denying that the vast majority of ME3 is beautifully written and highly compelling story telling. It's that this amazing story is for all apparent purposes ended, with out any closure to any of the characters. Something that Tolkien never did. He always provided closure to the characters in the story. (Until he re-wrote some of that closure out in order to provide better and more fulfilling closure)

THe same way the Mass Effect brings closure to Shepard's story regarding saving the galaxy against the reapers.

I would also like to point out to you that there are not sixteen endings, there are exactly six ending cinematics, either you're being thick on purpose or just trying to get a rise. I've respectfully disagreed and conceded points to people far more polite than you but this is borderline insanity. The six ending cinematics are identical save for minor element changes, the 'sixteen' endings? Randomly sorted depending on if you saved the collectors base or not.

www.ign.com/wikis/mass-effect-3/Endings

[Slayer299]

Xusa wrote...
I don't actually know, but it has been said in several places (youtube, kotaku, forums, etc) that there are 16 different endings.

Ahhh, well I've learned to take a grain of salt with dev statements over the last year.

[Slayer299]

Slayer299 wrote...


My point was that ME 2 did not need
DLC to make sense of the ending, it was clear right there. You knew the
Collectors were defeated (base destroyed or not) and the Reapers were
coming but you seem to have some intel based on the data pad you were
looking at. The story didn't tell you a lot, but the ending was enough
it didn't leave you confused.

If ME3's ending is not complete
and the ending was indeed cut from the game and into a DLC that would
make the game legally incomplete, morals have nothing to do with this,
the company is not "morally" obligated to do anything. And yes, the
ending did leave LOTS of people confused since we do not know what
happened to anyone (companions and galaxy at large. Endings in a trilogy
are supposed to tie things up, not leave you with more questions and no
sense of resolution.

Xusa said...
ME3 does not need DLC to make sense of the fact that the reapers aren't a threat anymore. At least in my story they're not just gone, they're dead.

It does, in that according to the devs and Ray it is supposed to leave no questions for the end. Now of course this has to be taken with a huge truckload of salt after the boatload of questions they did indeed leave for gamers at the end. You're right that it is clear that one way or another the Reapers are defeated, but the rest of what was left is not clear as was promised by them.

[Xusa]

In the end all you want is nothing, because you all claim that BioWare needs a DLC for the ending, but you all claim DLCs are evil and if the company does give us a DLC they're all exploiting us. Can BioWare really take all that seriously?

[DarthSliver]

I think Bioware is making dlc that if done will maybe add to the what ending we can get type deal. Yeah i don't think anyone is going to be happy with that but Bioware, if they do that is making dlc that is worth buying rather than dlc that you feel you can skip. I like dlc that feels apart of the game and i think maybe Bioware is trying/ going to try to do something along those lines and make dlc we feel we can't skip. Also the ending dlc could be purely a cutscene showing how the galaxy is depending on what ending you choose, from what i understand most don't care for ending to change and bring us a happy fairytale ending. They want more than just knowing the Reapers aren't a threat anymore.

Modifié par DarthSliver, 16 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[Moirai]

We are more than fans. We are customers. Customers with consumer rights, complaining about a commercial product that was in part sold to us based on misinformation.

I'd say that gives us a very legitimate reason to complain, and to ask for the product to be 'fixed'.

If they don't want to fix it, they could always give us a refund.