378 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

Myrmedus wrote...

The core issue (as I described in my big post above) is that the Catalyst is fallible yet the dialogue options - and consequent ending options available - have no wiggle room suggesting an infallible character.

Anyways, off to work!

YESS!!! YESS!!! Thankyou! That's EXACTLY what's wrong with the character. If it'd been established that he is flawed, it is apt for him to have flawed logic.

I honestly can't believe how any person with half a brain can consider the ME3 ending in anyway deep, meaningful or even sensical. 

[gamer_girl]

Saying it's art does not by any means make it good. An elephant sucking paint up its trunk and spraying it on a canvas is art too and it sells for millions. At least the morons that buy crap like that know what they're getting. If I knew what this ending was going to be ahead of time, I wouldn't have bought the game. I just want to get my money's worth. That ending was not worth the $80 CE in my opinion.

[Sarevok Synder]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...


YESS!!! YESS!!! Thankyou! That's EXACTLY what's wrong with the character. If it'd been established that he is flawed, it is apt for him to have flawed logic.

I honestly can't believe how any person with half a brain can consider the ME3 ending in anyway deep, meaningful or even sensical. 

Didn't you know? Nonsense is deeeeeeeep...................

[saracen16]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The core issue (as I described in my big post above) is that the Catalyst is fallible yet the dialogue options - and consequent ending options available - have no wiggle room suggesting an infallible character.

Anyways, off to work!

YESS!!! YESS!!! Thankyou! That's EXACTLY what's wrong with the character. If it'd been established that he is flawed, it is apt for him to have flawed logic.

I honestly can't believe how any person with half a brain can consider the ME3 ending in anyway deep, meaningful or even sensical. 

Lay off the insults. Has it ever occurred to you that BioWare may not have intended to make the Catalyst an infallible being?

[Vilegrim]

It was imaginative when deus ex did it over a decade ago.

[someguy1231]

Ah yes, "art".  A vague and malleable term used to deflect criticism from a work for being incomprehensible, illogical, or nonsensical, implying that the viewer simply doesn't "get it" and making the person saying it come off as pretentious and snooty. We have dismissed those claims...

[Marta Rio II]

To paraphrase everyone's favorite Phantom Menace reviewer:
"The only thing poetic about the ending was that I was vomiting in stanzas."

[HaesoME3]

I can't believe how easily some of you are trolled -shakes head-

[rinoe]

saracen16 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Let me tell you something: who are you to think that YOU are superior to BioWare and demand an ending change?

The customer.

You only own a copy of each Mass Effect game. Do you own the franchise?

I'll answer for you: NO.

OMG what is this? I'm the customer too, I just own the copy of a game and I don't like what I own. I could expect, that Bioware keep their promises, bsc of this promises I bought the game.

Ending is dull, depressing and - just boring. Full of story holes. I don't mind that kind of outcomes if they have just little bit of sense. It is like Star Wars - Ankain, join me - Ok - kill them -Ok -etc.  I've watch Star Wars 4-6 countless of times. 1-3, after what I've seen in 3 - just onece and not going back to it. No matter how good it is done, it is just make no sense. The same thing happend to ME3.

Maybe it is art, but for me it is art out of place. It is like we have Leonardo da Vinci all the way and got Picasso in the end.

As a customer of the single copy - I feel betrayed.

[Gibb_Shepard]

saracen16 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The core issue (as I described in my big post above) is that the Catalyst is fallible yet the dialogue options - and consequent ending options available - have no wiggle room suggesting an infallible character.

Anyways, off to work!

YESS!!! YESS!!! Thankyou! That's EXACTLY what's wrong with the character. If it'd been established that he is flawed, it is apt for him to have flawed logic.

I honestly can't believe how any person with half a brain can consider the ME3 ending in anyway deep, meaningful or even sensical. 

Lay off the insults. Has it ever occurred to you that BioWare may not have intended to make the Catalyst an infallible being?

Then that is terrible story-telling. Throughout the series and most prominently in ME3, it is shown that AI and organics can unite under a common banner; that they can make peace. It is shown that they can even fall in love with eachother, that no matter flesh or tin, love is not mutually exclusive.

And then we're told that no matter what, AI will always kill organics. It is a thematic inconsistency of the highest degree; a complete failure in story-telling. And it could've been avoided, had the writers established the AI child as a flawed character,. But since they chose him to be infallible, it directly contradicts the logic and theme present in the very same game.

And i'm sorry about the insult, i'm just very frustrated at the moment.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 15 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

[leianajade]

Okay. I'm going to admit that I didn't read all 12 pages, so I apologize if this is redundant.

The problem with this "art" argument is that this form of "art" isn't meant to be fixed. I'm not denying that it takes a whole lot of creativity and can be called art. But it's not the same as a sculpture. It's not supposed to be fixed.

ME3 is an RPG, a computerized version of something like Dungeons and Dragons. If you've ever played one of these for a decent amount of time, you'll know that there are good DM's and bad DM's.

The good DM's work with the characters. They have an overarching story, they have plot points to move things forward and keep the characters from winding up in outer space when they need to go to sea, but they let the characters explore and guide the story a bit. This keeps the players engaged and invested. It's as much their story as it is the DM's.

The bad DM's are the ones who are all about telling "their" story with no player input. If a player thinks of something that's outside the box, the DM swats it down and continues. You can't railroad your players too tightly, or they'll get ticked.

Now, a video game can't be as flexible as a tabletop session, but it is STILL an RPG at heart. There are certain things that are expected of an RPG.

If I, as DM, let my players make these decisions for an entire campaign, made them feel like that they made a difference in the world, that their characters had faced consequences of their actions, and then I completely took it out of their hands and gave them one generic ending, they would have my head.

To craft a magnificent story like Mass Effect, to make the players engage and care so deeply about characters and the world - yes, that is art. But this medium of art was never meant to be fixed...it's meant to be molded and shifted to the player.

[Darth Taurus]

A pice of crap, you wanted to say.

[PeterG1]

I'll say it again only because I don't want to give off too big an air of pretentiousness. What I meant to say in the first post (and subsequent posts) was that the game, at the end, as I watched those last few cutscenes, evoked an emotional reaction in me that would be akin to an emotional reaction after reading an amazing book, watching a great movie, or listening to music--in other words, experiencing a great work of art. A video game has never done that for me before. And I think that's pretty awesome.


I still share in many of your opinions that the game did leave me feeling a bit alienated and perhaps even saddened that my "Shep" is not in the place where I wanted or expected him. Like many of you, I think I can count over 150 hours in this series between the three games. Plus I read the books and the comics! So I know, believe me I know the feeling. Again, I would love to have that bottle of brandy with Chakwas.


And, after having thought about it, I don't know if I want to play through with my FemShep now, for the same reasons many of you have said. So I'm on the same page with you there. Yes, the gameplay in ME3 was amazing, but those endings are what they are, and because they're so important to us (and what we thought would have effects specifically on our characters at the end) I don't know if I'll play her through. Not for awhile anyway.


However, as I probably didn't put very well in my first post, the ending of the game (I've done all 3 with near-max EMS) did evoke one hell of an emotional reaction. I liken it to a sort of enlightened feeling but I don't think that's the best word to use. It was beautiful, though! I felt a bizarre and profound sense of closure despite the fact that the ending was neither what I expected or really, at least until I experienced it, wanted.


And even now I'm still torn. When I woke up this morning I was still thinking about that bottle of brandy, and the result of all those decisions I made over the last 3 games. But, at least as of now, BW didn't conclude that way. They concluded in this way and the effect it had on me, regardless of whether or not it was what I wanted, was pretty dang profound.

Edit: quick formatting fix

Modifié par PeterG1, 15 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[GreyhameBioware]

saracen16 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The core issue (as I described in my big post above) is that the Catalyst is fallible yet the dialogue options - and consequent ending options available - have no wiggle room suggesting an infallible character.

Anyways, off to work!

YESS!!! YESS!!! Thankyou! That's EXACTLY what's wrong with the character. If it'd been established that he is flawed, it is apt for him to have flawed logic.

I honestly can't believe how any person with half a brain can consider the ME3 ending in anyway deep, meaningful or even sensical. 

Lay off the insults. Has it ever occurred to you that BioWare may not have intended to make the Catalyst an infallible being?

Then why do we never get to question it?  If it's not meant to be treated as infallible, why do I take everything it says like it is?

[SandTrout]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Lay off the insults. Has it ever occurred to you that BioWare may not have intended to make the Catalyst an infallible being?

Then that is terrible story-telling. Throughout the series and most prominently in ME3, it is shown that AI and organics can unite under a common banner; that they can make peace. It is shown that they can even fall in love with eachother, that no matter flesh or tin, love is not mutually exclusive.

And then we're told that no matter what, AI will always kill organics. It is a thematic inconsistency of the highest degree; a complete failure in story-telling. And it could've been avoided, had the writers established the AI child as a flawed character,. But since they chose him to be infallible, it directly contradicts the logic and theme present in the very same game.

And i'm sorry about the insult, i'm just very frustrated at the moment.

Gibb is completely correct, and to illustrate his point, I allready have a Blog entry (Wall of Text Warning).

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Bitterfoam]

I support the OP.

And regarding the "is child-vision-guy infallible or not," it's a moot point. He/it might say what he/it believes, and Shepard's response is one of disbelief, potentially mirrored by the player behind Shepard. That this disbelief occurs is enough that it is not a "thematic inconsistency of the highest degree." Please.

[Joel_O]

leianajade wrote...

ME3 is an RPG, a computerized version of something like Dungeons and Dragons. 
 

But isn't this the point? What ME3 is or isn't depends who you ask. I've played my fair share of D&D, but don't think of ME3 that way. I see it as a form of digital and interactive storytelling. The closest resemblance being a movie.

Also, RPG:s are can also be art. Interactive art, but art non the less. So is interactive dance performances. Art is a form of communication or expression. And it can be found in everything from this web-page design to the industrial design of the computer we are writing on. 

So, I don't see why art would have to be defined so arrowly, or why ME3 could not be considered art, even if some people percieve it as an RPG. 

[SandTrout]

Bitterfoam wrote...

I support the OP.

And regarding the "is child-vision-guy infallible or not," it's a moot point. He/it might say what he/it believes, and Shepard's response is one of disbelief, potentially mirrored by the player behind Shepard. That this disbelief occurs is enough that it is not a "thematic inconsistency of the highest degree." Please.

Yes, it does, because Shepard never actually throws the premise back into the Catalysts face or call BS, he gives a token challenge of "There's always hope", then acquiesces and does what the Catalyst tells him to.

[GreyhameBioware]

Bitterfoam wrote...

I support the OP.

And regarding the "is child-vision-guy infallible or not," it's a moot point. He/it might say what he/it believes, and Shepard's response is one of disbelief, potentially mirrored by the player behind Shepard. That this disbelief occurs is enough that it is not a "thematic inconsistency of the highest degree." Please.

If my response is one of disbeleif (which is is) why do I not argue with the logic and then choose the "solutions" it tells me are true?

[FOX216BC]

Art? How did we get from epic trilogy to art?
The end does not make any sense what so ever, even from
a mysterious point of view. The say it was the end of a trilogy.
That's not art or a clear ending. If i want art i buy a ME art book, thank u.

[gamer_girl]

PeterG1 wrote...

I'll say it again only because I don't want to give off too big an air of pretentiousness. What I meant to say in the first post (and subsequent posts) was that the game, at the end, as I watched those last few cutscenes, evoked an emotional reaction in me that would be akin to an emotional reaction after reading an amazing book, watching a great movie, or listening to music--in other words, experiencing a great work of art. A video game has never done that for me before. And I think that's pretty awesome.


I still share in many of your opinions that the game did leave me feeling a bit alienated and perhaps even saddened that my "Shep" is not in the place where I wanted or expected him. Like many of you, I think I can count over 150 hours in this series between the three games. Plus I read the books and the comics! So I know, believe me I know the feeling. Again, I would love to have that bottle of brandy with Chakwas.


And, after having thought about it, I don't know if I want to play through with my FemShep now, for the same reasons many of you have said. So I'm on the same page with you there. Yes, the gameplay in ME3 was amazing, but those endings are what they are, and because they're so important to us (and what we thought would have effects specifically on our characters at the end) I don't know if I'll play her through. Not for awhile anyway.


However, as I probably didn't put very well in my first post, the ending of the game (I've done all 3 with near-max EMS) did evoke one hell of an emotional reaction. I liken it to a sort of enlightened feeling but I don't think that's the best word to use. It was beautiful, though! I felt a bizarre and profound sense of closure despite the fact that the ending was neither what I expected or really, at least until I experienced it, wanted.


And even now I'm still torn. When I woke up this morning I was still thinking about that bottle of brandy, and the result of all those decisions I made over the last 3 games. But, at least as of now, BW didn't conclude that way. They concluded in this way and the effect it had on me, regardless of whether or not it was what I wanted, was pretty dang profound.

Edit: quick formatting fix

Why you were thinking about the decisions you made, l'll never know. You do realize your choices had absolutely no impact on the end, right? And hell I think everyone here had emotions with that ending. Only problem was those emotions were one of two: major depression or seething anger. Depressed because the end had no hope, angry that Shepard didn't try to find another way out, depressed because the end didn't do the series justice, angry because it was all a big waste of tme, etc.

[xtorma]

This post is like when you get a new artsy bf/gf/whatever and they take you to a show. You see a bunch of people standing around a canvas with a small black square in one corner. They are all talking about how deep the art is , and how much emotion it brings out in the viewer.....and you are thinking........It's a freeking little black square!..

[HyperionTheGreat]

xtorma wrote...

This post is like when you get a new artsy bf/gf/whatever and they take you to a show. You see a bunch of people standing around a canvas with a small black square in one corner. They are all talking about how deep the art is , and how much emotion it brings out in the viewer.....and you are thinking........It's a freeking little black square!..

And the weirdest part is they'd think you were nuts if you actually said that.

People once said that war is art, some still do. Ask the soldiers what they think of that. I doubt anyone with a straight mind would give you an "artistic" answer.

[leianajade]

Joel_O wrote...

leianajade wrote...

ME3 is an RPG, a computerized version of something like Dungeons and Dragons. 
 

But isn't this the point? What ME3 is or isn't depends who you ask. I've played my fair share of D&D, but don't think of ME3 that way. I see it as a form of digital and interactive storytelling. The closest resemblance being a movie.

Also, RPG:s are can also be art. Interactive art, but art non the less. So is interactive dance performances. Art is a form of communication or expression. And it can be found in everything from this web-page design to the industrial design of the computer we are writing on. 

So, I don't see why art would have to be defined so arrowly, or why ME3 could not be considered art, even if some people percieve it as an RPG. 

I think you miss my point. I do believe it's art, but it's not art that only one person has their hand in. I think it's meant to be more of a community art, not museum art.

And Mass Effect *IS* labeled as an RPG, there's no arguing about that. So I think, rather than trying to compare it to a movie or a book or a painting - something it clearly isn't - look to what it's actually labeled as.