378 réponses à ce sujet

[saracen16]

Reidbynature wrote...

 It's not art, it's plot holes. 

I really don't like this kind of argument when you see a wide range of people, possibly even the majority, disliking something like this.  It's essentially just saying to them "oh you just didn't get it".  I think if you're truly going to make art for a mass audience (which I don't think was the case here), then you do have to make it so that the message is still communicable to a wider audience and not something only a few people outside of those creating it may get or appreciate.  That to me suggests a problem with those creating it rather than a lack of intelligence on the part of the audience or them just not getting it.  

There is too many people who play this game who don't appreciate the ending for saying "you don't get it" to be true.  Most of whom are likely intelligent enough to decipher something artistic and quite a few of them are also likely to know what art is, either from studying it or being artists themselves.

Also the OP mentions Deus Ex HR in relation to ME3.  I think the ME3 endings felt like they took too much of a cue from Deus Ex.  Also I think Deus Ex HR was an 'ok' game that didn't live up to the original and felt like it didn't really know what game it wanted to be, Deus Ex or Metal Gear Solid.  Honestly that game felt more like an homage to MGS the more it went on (not the first game to do that either sadly).

None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

[Caz Neerg]

saracen16 wrote...
None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

This explains it better than most of us can.  Or at least in a more entertaining fashion.

[Persephone]

Caz Neerg wrote...

saracen16 wrote...
None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

This explains it better than most of us can.  Or at least in a more entertaining fashion.

Still waiting for actual arguments.....

[Caz Neerg]

If you can't be bothered to go to links, we can assume you aren't actually interested in hearing arguments.

[SoulDire]

Art. If I wanted art I'd have bought a painting. I wanted a fulfilling experience that I could get some closure with and then enjoy a replay of the entire series. That didn't happen. Sorry, Bioware, I love and respect you, but you have really let me down on this one. Keeping hope alive for an ending with closure, but until I get it I'll just fire up my brain and imagine the "real" ending in my head and just try to be satisified with that.

[Persephone]

Caz Neerg wrote...

If you can't be bothered to go to links, we can assume you aren't actually interested in hearing arguments.

None to be found at that link. Care to write some up yourself or is parroting each other all you fanatics are capable of?

[Caz Neerg]

Persephone wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

If you can't be bothered to go to links, we can assume you aren't actually interested in hearing arguments.

None to be found at that link. Care to write some up yourself or is parroting each other all you fanatics are capable of?

I've done it many times, this isn't the first thread on this subject, and most of you two percenters just respond with "That's not a plot hole," with no explanation of how it isn't a plot hole.  I'm tired of feeding trolls.

[Reidbynature]

saracen16 wrote...


None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

You just haven't been paying attention then.  The vid posted by Caz Neerg does a decent job of pointing out a few plot holes even if it is done in the form of a tongue in cheek rant.  Plus the comments on there point out others (you might see a couple by me).

Also "haven't been active enough"?  Does that even mean anything?

I think it's a real shame that a lot of peoples first reaction on these boards to an opinion other than theirs is to belittle it.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 15 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[CasbynessPC]

I agree it is artistic and was crafted with a specific feeling in mind. Right at the end, Shepard is given the choice between destroying or controlling the Reapers, but is also allowed the option of a third solution - something that lets Shepard live up to his/her name as "The Shepard" of all life, merging synthetics and organics to end the cycle and all other synth vs. org conflicts.

I can totally see how this was the selling point underlined by the main writer for the endings. I can even see how it was accepted. The problem is that they seriously underestimated how attached we all are to our Shepards, how much we all wanted to see an epilogue covering how our LIs and other squadmates, friends, etc turned out afterwards, and finally how much we'd all rail against the inherent "space magic" of the genre-changing God-Child and "Synthesis" concepts.

ME3's ending would be fine for many games. It's fine for many TV shows and books. But not the ME universe. Not after all those huge choices and consequences, all the connections and the utterly personal nature of the story and identification with its protagonist.

Lots of series end with a heroic self-sacrifice by the main character, since it punctuates the end of the series. However, that sacrifice usually has the effect of saving everyone else (even the questionable Matrix ending has that!). In ME3, the sacrifice still dooms everyone, so it's lose-lose.

[idunhavaname]

Thats the problem... its poetic. Once you analyze it, you start hating it. Like Quarians and Turians starving to death, chances of Normandy even crash landing on a planet with life after getting torn in half during FTl etc.

They basically stranded my crew so they won't ever see Earth again for a garden of eden metaphor... nice.

Modifié par idunhavaname, 15 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[teknoarcanist]

They didn't need to shoot for "enlightenment" or depth in the last five minutes. They already HAD that. Mass Effect was ALREADY a thematically-rich series, touching on themes of multiculturalism, xenophobia, the hatred born of ignorance, the scars of war, etc. And then the last five minutes go "MAN, TRANSHUMANISM SURE IS A THING, EH GUYS?"

[SoulDire]

Let me explain something. In books and movies and even tv shows the protagonist may be someone we care about and feel kinship to, following there story, but in all those mediums the protagonist is not you. Now, the argument can be made that Shepard is only a character, but as a role-playing game, Shepard is our character. We are Shepard.

Throughout the entire series we have been led along, yes, but we have been given the chance to experience the story our way. At the ending we were not given that choice. We were presented with a small set of "choices" that ultimately did not make much difference in the end.

Our attachment to Shepard as an extension of ourselves does not allow us to be satisfied with such vague and limiting ending to our story. That's my view on it anyway. I still love Bioware, don't get me wrong, I even still enjoy playing DA2, I didn't like it as much as Origins, but I still enjoyed it on it's own merits. Same here.

I thought ME3 was the most amazing experience I have ever had with a video game, going beyond what I thought video games could be. But the last 20 minutes completely ruined the entire experience for me to the point I don't even want to play it again. I'm so disappointed that I'm even considering cancelling my SWTOR subscription. If Bioware wanted to polarize with this ending they were extremely successful. If we get an "ending" DLC, that will be great, but I'm still disappointed in a company that I once had praised for never letting me down.

[joshko]

I agree OP very much. In fact the first thing I thought when I finished the game was "Man I haven't felt this sad since I finished one a favoret book of mine when I was young and full of imagination."

I personaly would not mind at all a more concrete ending, but to say this ending was not memorable or that is hopless a failure, or that it didn't have it's own sort beauty is just wrong. Because if it were not, we would not be having this conversation.

[saracen16]

Reidbynature wrote...

saracen16 wrote...


None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

You just haven't been paying attention then.  The vid posted by Caz Neerg does a decent job of pointing out a few plot holes even if it is done in the form of a tongue in cheek rant.  Plus the comments on there point out others (you might see a couple by me).

No, he doesn't. All his quotes are represented in that garbage Gamefront article that was already addressed in this thread. You haven't been paying attention.

Also "haven't been active enough"?  Does that even mean anything?

Actually, it does. Gaming is an active experience, not a passive one. With a rich story, it required your attention. It shouldn't spoon-feed you every single step of the way.

I think it's a real shame that a lot of peoples first reaction on these boards to an opinion other than theirs is to belittle it.

I agree, but no, I'm not belittling your opinion, or anyone else's. I'm just telling you what I think instead of devaluing your experience.

[Mathias]

Go watch the ending of Blade Runner and then tell me with a straight face that the end of ME3 was art.

[saracen16]

Caz Neerg wrote...

If you can't be bothered to go to links, we can assume you aren't actually interested in hearing arguments.

Posting links randomly either means you haven't put much energy into formulating your own argument, or you don't just have an argument to begin with. I shouldn't have to be spoon-fed links by random posters and repeatedly have to debunk them. If you have an opinion, man up, or woman up, and come out with it.

[NReed106]

Be as poetic as you wish, but do so without creating 10+plot holes in the space of 5 minutes.

An Inferred holocaust and galactic dark age can be poetic and artistic, but that doesn't mean I have to approve as the consumer.

[Reidbynature]

I get what you mean that gaming is an active experience, I never disagreed, but your sentence saying I wasn't 'active enough' was bordering towards gibberish. Your point wasn't clearly put so I interpreted that as a put down of sorts, but I respect that you say you're not belittling my argument (or anyone else).

I also agree we shouldn't be spoon fed, but I and many others don't believe this is the problem here. I've said what the problem is, but you disagree fundamentally and don't seem to be open to any suggestion of plot holes, so I'm not going to continue this line of argument with you. So each to their own.

[MonkeyLungs]

Let's not forget that the ending seems like a rip off of Deus Ex, which was ripped off by it's much later released prequel Human Revolution. I'm sure someone mentioned that already but this thread is long.

[saracen16]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Let's not forget that the ending seems like a rip off of Deus Ex, which was ripped off by it's much later released prequel Human Revolution. I'm sure someone mentioned that already but this thread is long.

That it is a perceived "rip off" doesn't mean that it's the same. They were all executed differently. I suppose, following your logic, that every Disney movie ripped off the other because the guy got the gal in the end and they lived happily ever after.

[tenacious_err]

This is absloutely not poetic art.

Do I think a video game could be poetic art? Yes, absolutely. It's a fine line to walk, but I do think video games are a form of art.

That being said, this line of argument is one I find ridiculous. Killing (or mostly killing,) your main character and having the end be a deus ex machina with a kid who tells you he's been killing organics so synthetics can't kill organics and being given three choice is not, in any way, poetic art.

I think it was trying, but it failed and worse it left us all feeling terrible in its failure.

I'm an English major. I say this because I read A LOT of actualy poetry, poetic writing, experimental writing, etc. I understand poetic endings, but this is just a vague attempt at poetry that falls flat on its face.

[PeterG1]

Caz Neerg wrote...

saracen16 wrote...
None of you have even explained what the plot holes are. 

Games are active experiences, not passive experiences like movies. You haven't been active enough, apparently.

This explains it better than most of us can.  Or at least in a more entertaining fashion.

Haha, yea I enjoyed this review. Or is it a rant? No matter, it was funny. And yea Jeremy does have a point. His main argument, the ship and it's place in the galaxy at the end, doesn't make a lot of sense. I think the mass relays are a bit more open to interpreatation. They may have been completely destroyed (or did that really only happen in the synthesis choice?) or just used to create supernovas, of sorts, to propel the catalyst to the other systems. 

That said, if we were presented with a few more ending options, or ending options that were more "acceptable" by the 98%, would we be more forgiving of plot holes? Chances are, probably yea.

I'm not going to recant my position that the ending is still beautiful, to me. But Jeremy does make a good point. 

[Caz Neerg]

PeterG1 wrote...
Haha, yea I enjoyed this review. Or is it a rant? No matter, it was funny. And yea Jeremy does have a point. His main argument, the ship and it's place in the galaxy at the end, doesn't make a lot of sense. I think the mass relays are a bit more open to interpreatation. They may have been completely destroyed (or did that really only happen in the synthesis choice?) or just used to create supernovas, of sorts, to propel the catalyst to the other systems. 

That said, if we were presented with a few more ending options, or ending options that were more "acceptable" by the 98%, would we be more forgiving of plot holes? Chances are, probably yea.

I'm not going to recant my position that the ending is still beautiful, to me. But Jeremy does make a good point. 

Does anyone else find it interesting how some of the two percenters are trying to focus narrowly on the "plot holes" argument, when that is only one of a long laundry list of problems people have with the ending?  Not saying you are one of those, but there do seem to be quite a few.  To the extent there are even "quite a few" two percenters to begin with. 

[Fair34]

It might be art but it's bad art as in trying so hard to be art that it falls flat.

[TFulls]

dumb