378 réponses à ce sujet

[Dougremer]

Good post OP. Glad you liked it. I get the same feelings sometimes. But overall it can't be it, something is missing if you ask me.

[Jayce]

PeterG1 wrote...

 I just finished the game. Oh man, there's so much to say. I'm so torn over everything even now I'm starting to doubt what I've written below. Haha...
{snip}

I understand exactly what you mean, I also get what they tried to do and appreciate they strove for a philosophical resolution. A lot of people do get it, I just think they did it in an incredibly poor way.

You can't spend three entire games repeatedly telling us through story that cooperation, hope, tolerance  free will = Win and intolerance, xenophobia and selfishness = fail and then give us an ending that not only completely and utterly ignores that entire theme, it baldly states it's irrelevant. 

The message of the ending works in isolation but it contradicts everything Mass Effect has stood for up to that point.

The ironic thing is; ME3 probably would've been the gaming equivalent of the Shawshank Redemption up to that point. But by trying to spark a real world philosophical debate, Bioware completely undermined themselves and their message.

Modifié par Jayce F, 15 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[Dougremer]

guyfromprague wrote...

I do get people that find meaning in current endings.
But don't try to convince anyone that they make sense or are in any way "deep".
What the endings say to me is: "It doesn't matter who your friends are, it doesn't matter who you helped, what you did. Nothing matters."
That's not deep. That's just nihilistic.
Universe itself is nihilistic, why add another layer?
And the entire idea of how Shepard's sacrifice is anything but stupid, goes out of window, when you consider the cliffhanger, when you have 5000+ EMS and choose red wire, and get 20 seconds of extra footage of someone wearing N7 dog-tags inhaling.
Where is the poetic part?
"Oh, the galaxy is doomed, but at least Shepard gave his life to protect the life in it. Oh, wait, maybe he's alive. Nevermind."

nihilistic? as in Nihlus?!

[Winterfly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

[Gtacatalina]

PeterG1 wrote...
This game is Art. And it's a blockbuster.
I

Are you sure you're not Laura Parker

http://uk.gamespot.c...ending-6366066/

[Catroi]

TL;DR + the ending is retarded

[crimzontearz]

it is so awesome and poetic and artistic the traded in copies are folding Gamestop.......yeah......totally awesome

[DS_Abe]

The last time a game sold me GrimDark McEdgyPessimist ending was Persona 3.

Protagonist sacrifices himself for human kind, and Dark Hour disappears so nobody else dies or has to use their powers to fight.

Was it sad? Yes. Was it depressing? Yes. Was everything the team has done pointless? **** no. They accomplished their goal, and they all have bright futures thanks to Hero's sacrifice.

Unlike ME3, where every single race is ****ed and galactic community is shattered and nobody will see another race ever again.

[Fail_Inc]

Mordin's scenes are art, they make you sad because writing and actors make it so.

The Endings are not art, they make you sad because all that time you spend in all 3 games comes down to 3 colors. It doesn't have to follow your Shepard's decisions too, you can be the biggest **** in the universe but still get the "good" synthesis ending with enough War Assets.

And a better proof of endings are not art or deep is all you "snobs" who defend the game, calling the ending is so "artsy, dark, grim, deep, philosophical".

[Halberd96]

Well...I DO agree that Deus Ex HR and Skyrim's plots and endings are much weaker than ME 3 at least.

[Myrmedus]

Most of your post doesn't even discuss the endings but describes how the games as a whole were art and well constructed - well, yes, I think you'll find fans here agree.

On the small amount of your post that does actually directly discuss the ending, I noticed you used one particular word that I have to admit, as mean as it sounds, I laughed at: “enlightening”. This is precisely what the ending is not – it is not enlightening. It is ambiguous, arbitrary, unexplained, inexplicable (hence all the threads here), blurred and inconclusive. It doesn’t shed light on anything and it commits many well known “fubars” in plot development:
 
-          It pulls what should have been a pivotal ‘character’ (if you can call it that) out at the very last moment (the Catalyst) without any prior development, foreshadowing or reference.

-          It uses poor logic to justify the motives of the saga’s primary antagonists; antagonists that we’re meant to believe are so intelligent, which just further invalidates the ridiculous cyclic reasoning of the Catalyst (we kill organics to stop them being killed by synthetics...but we are synthetics killing organics).

-          It diverts the nature and style of the entire genre from one of more “grounded” sci-fi (which was one of the things lauded) to something closer to mystical fantasy.
 
There are more errors in judgment not listed here as well.
 
In addition, you made reference to a movie with a sad but enlightening ending: this is part of the issue – Mass Effect is a trilogy. Mass Effect 3 is not a single, stand-alone video-game but the ending to a trilogy, and the endings to a trilogy have to be handled differently. The simple reason why is because they not only conclude the instalment in question but previous instalments as well. There are more questions to be answered, usually more characters to consider and a cathartic journey that needs to be resolved on part of the viewer/reader/player.

I don’t know if you read Lord of the Rings but I can tell you that the ending to Return of the King is bittersweet, far more so than what is expressed in the movie (note: the fact they expressed it in a more uplifting manner in the movie is a clue to appropriate endings in visual media). Basically, in the books, Frodo actually ends up becoming completely disconnected, is in constant pain from the wound he received from the Nazgul, and ends up moving on to what is essentially the afterlife (so, in some ways, you could say he dies). The exact means to which the Ring is destroyed is hardly your typical “hero defeats evil” scenario either. However, the ending is still conclusive. It details what happens with each important character, each important faction. Not all of them are happy endings but they’re balanced, unlike Mass Effect 3’s ending which is very imbalanced: it’s overtly grim. I get the feeling the developers intended for it to be a balanced ending but it ultimately fails.

Another example is the ending to Matrix: Revolutions – it’s bittersweet. The main character dies. Trinity dies. However, once again it is conclusive. We see what happened to the other characters. We know exactly that the peace was observed by the machines, and we are even shown what becomes of the Matrix and its virtual entities. It is bittersweet but it is conclusive.

The key word here is “conclusive” – Mass Effect 3’s ending is not conclusive, which is the pivotal requirement to an ending – it’s meant to END things. It’s an unfocused ending that in many ways feels rushed, almost as if the writer responsible ran out of ideas. It is not art the same way a chimpanzee scribbling on a canvas isn’t art. It is a poorly executed, mish-mash of arbitrary, metaphysical ideas not appropriately given form due to the lack of time and development put into their expression.

And I also think DX:HR did a better job with its ending, largely because it was the conclusion to a single game not a trilogy.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 15 mars 2012 - 10:55 .

[Phaedra Sanguine]

 I read everything you wrote and thank you for thinking with a level head. You get it.

[Meanfrey]

The way they telling the ending, I admit, is indeed poetic and beautiful, and through which, they just show you a piece of chaos and nonsense.

[Toby Shepard]

Poetic and beautiful just like modern art.

Haha.

[JPR1964]

Sorry OP,

I don't buy a game for art, I buy it to enjoy until it the last second...

ME3 failed me and "some" others...

JPR out!

Modifié par JPR1964, 15 mars 2012 - 11:01 .

[Phaedra Sanguine]

Malchat wrote...
it jerked me out of the game and forced me to think

No offense, but... I think you probably see the problem with this line here.

[Myrmedus]

Another significant issue I have is that Hudson states he wanted people to not forget the ending, to discuss it etc. and I imagine many people perceive this intention as being successful, but I would argue you’d surely want people to be doing these things: discussing it, thinking about it etc. in a positive light and not slating it because they’re angry, frustrated and depressed – in that regard, I can’t even consider BW having successfully achieved their intention.

Blighting the series for the sake of making people not forget the ending – with negative connotations – was not a wise choice nor an acceptable sacrifice. The series was already art - the best gaming series of its generation and good enough for Legendary Pictures to take it to the big screen - there was no need for this.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 15 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[SimonTheFrog]

@Myrmedus:

Very nice post! I agree completely.

And:
there is art and art. I think that what ME did in the trilogy is art itself. It is counterproductive to go all "2001: A Space Odyssey " on us in the last 10 minutes without any transition. It doesn't add another layer, it just doesn't fit the rest and sticks out as awkward.

[incinerator950]

Myrmedus wrote...

Another significant issue I have is that Hudson states he wanted people to not forget the ending, to discuss it etc. and I imagine many people perceive this intention as being successful, but I would argue you’d surely want people to be doing these things: discussing it, thinking about it etc. in a positive light and not slating it because they’re angry, frustrated and depressed – in that regard, I can’t even consider BW having successfully achieved their intention. Blighting the series for the sake of making people not forget the ending – with negative connotations – was not a wise choice nor an acceptable sacrifice.

I figured out a few months ago that Casey likes to pretend his ass is a magical hat to which he can draw random information out of.  

However, ME 1 and ME 2 I was not on for the social determining of the games merit.  I did my gaming, then came on to find something.

Now I'm just passing the time, half the opinions I use are not even mine, I just force stimulate people to say something so I can get a feel for why they're angry or resentful.  

[Joel_O]

OP: I'm starting to think that the best thing with this ending is that everyone who liked it understood it differently. It goes to show how much "imaginary momentum" the rest of the series have managed to build up. I imagined VERY different outcomes from the three choices and they all incorporated the decisions I had made earlier. I thank Bioware for not underestimating my imagination and immersion in the world. 

Here is my first take on what happened, when I had just finished the game. 

Modifié par Joel_O, 15 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[DarkCerberus72]

I agree....

I hated watching Shep die. I would have preferred a happy ending. But I dont hate the ending we were given. It is memorable, I'll never forget it.

[Myrmedus]

I think the issue with that is even though many people have different opinions on what actually happened in the ending, pretty much all of them point to an incredibly bleak outcome. And no, this isn’t a requirement for a “sunshine and bunnies” ending, there’s a difference between bleak and sad.
 
Also, if they wanted to do produce an ending which was like this it could’ve been one of the multiple endings, that way it would’ve both been down to the player’s choice how they concluded the series and open for debate. Instead, we’re all forced to endure pretty much the same ending, why not appease everyone instead? There are some people here who obviously appreciate the murky, bleak ending: why not simply have that as one of the ending available for the people who like that ending? And why not have another more uplifting and conclusive ending for those who want that? And perhaps an ending straight down the middle, both conclusive but also sad etc. this is supposed to be the entire point of multiple endings: so people can experience the ending, and the series as a whole, in the way they wish; so that everyone is appeased in their own individual and tailored way, not so that one ending of acquired taste is forced down everyone’s throats.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 15 mars 2012 - 11:19 .

[zarnk567]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

It's not artful; it's a bunch of plot-hole ridden nonsense trying to seem deep and failing.

[zarnk567]

DS_Abe wrote...

The last time a game sold me GrimDark McEdgyPessimist ending was Persona 3.

Protagonist sacrifices himself for human kind, and Dark Hour disappears so nobody else dies or has to use their powers to fight.

Was it sad? Yes. Was it depressing? Yes. Was everything the team has done pointless? **** no. They accomplished their goal, and they all have bright futures thanks to Hero's sacrifice.

Unlike ME3, where every single race is ****ed and galactic community is shattered and nobody will see another race ever again.

This, times 1,000. this is what makes me so mad it feels like Shepard's sacrifice caused so much more harm than good.....

[Necrotron]

pomrink wrote...

I guess I hate art

That made me laugh out loud.

I would accept an artful ending if it didn't have major plot holes.

@ Myrmedus, Very well written.

Modifié par Bathaius, 15 mars 2012 - 11:27 .