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Evidence that disprove the Indoctrination Theory


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#1
CommanderWilliams

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 Please. Attempt to do so. I was on the "F*ck you Bioware banwagon" for awhile, but once I started looking at the evidence, there are simply too many coincendes and little things to say they did not plan this.

I will not list everything here, there are hudreds of pages of people explaining and justifying the ending. If you can find anything about the indoctrination theory that flat out disproves it I want to hear it. With that said looking at some of the evidence for the theory, some of IS taken too far. My example, people believe the oily black stuff during the chat with the illusive man proves it is an indoctrination. Not really, TIM flat out tells you he is controlling you, so in that small instance you are indoctrinated, but not the entire time.

Its a small thing that can be taken several ways but in no way disproves or even hurts the theory. The sooner people realize we solved the puzzle the sooner all the flames will die down. Besides, even if they didn't plan it, they would complete idiots to tell us they didn't or not make a proper ending proving the theory right.

Modifié par CommanderWilliams, 15 mars 2012 - 09:28 .


#2
MisterNugNug

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Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.

#3
GnusmasTHX

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I heard the leaked script had Joker come down to buttrape Harbinger. Harbinger fought back, and was indoctrinating Shepard by multitasking.

#4
CommanderWilliams

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Its true. That makes sense, but remember this. Harbinger made a really big deal out of keeping Shepard alive i ME2. He was even responsible for recovering Shepard's body (explained in Shadow Broker)

Why? I have no idea but hopefully it is explained the DLC. (Possibly to Harvest him) As a side note, having control of who is effectively the most important person in the galaxy could prove helpful to Harbinger since he isn't going to kill EVERYONE.

Also I don't think people would just lay down and die if Shepard were to fall. Morale would drop yes, but not so extremely.

#5
Kayjin23

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 You can't logically disprove a negative. It's called unfair burden. You're committing an argumentum ad ignorantiam or an argument that uses the lack of evidence to the contrary as a claim it's right. Just because something can't be proven false doesn't mean it's true.
Please at least skim this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

#6
Raiil

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Prove the indoctrination theory. And by prove, I mean give me Casey Hudson saying 'Yup, that's it.'


I'm not saying it's not possible, or that there isn't good evidence for it. But I am getting tired of people using it as if it's iron-clad and written in stone when it is honest to goodness not. I happen to think the ending is BioWare trying to shock us with awe and instead we ended up with ****ty writing.

#7
Darksaberexile

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MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.


Killing Shepard would destroy morale, as he was pretty much the only hope people had. However, it would also take a long time to convince people he was dead (hey, he came back to life before, why should i believe a Reaper?).

However, if Shepard becomes indoctrinated, and then is used by Harbinger/whoever to tell all of the aliens/humans/synthetics Shepard united that struggling against the Reapers is hopeless, everything would fall apart instantly. Instead of fighting off the hope Shepard gave them, people would be breaking alliances because they were formed as part of a Reaper trap to draw them into an attack on Earth. Many people would likely just give up and accept being "reaped" as an inevitability.

(Not sure if i was clear in the above paragraphs, so summary: Kill Shepard, and it will erode people's hope over time as they accept it and everything falls apart. Have Shepard himself, under Reaper control, telling them that fighting is pointless would shatter a lot of people's resolve, cause many of the alliances he forged to be scrutinized more, and so on.)

#8
Esquin

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If the indoctrination theory is correct then that means bioware sold us an unfinished game.

This isn't intended as proof of it being wrong. Just proof that ethically it was the wrong choice for a company to make.

#9
AusitnDrake

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MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.

I think Shepard's accomplishments make a perfect reason to indoctrinate him/her. Shepard's has been a thorn in the side of the reapers since the end on ME1, they could just kill him, but it would be better to have him as an asset on their side. The races of the galaxy lose their hero and the reapers gain a potent servant.

#10
Doctoglethorpe

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Well, Shepard would be the greatest sleeper agent. Can you imagine how ****ed the galaxy would be if the Shepard was turned to the enemy?

He's also the most significant human alive, it could be an important part of constructing a human-reaper, especially if one of their purposes is to preserve the races they exterminate.

Regardless of why though, fact is its been something they've always been trying to do since the beginning of ME2. The why is rather irrelevant to the question, we know for a fact they would prefer capturing him "in tack."

#11
hex23

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MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.


As I said in another thread:

Because in "Arrival" they said they want his mind...not his brain...his mind.

www.youtube.com/watch

They even say "patch him up....we want Shepard alive" after you lose the shoot out in the first Object Rho scene.

They also had 2+ days to kill him while he was in close proximity to Object Rho, and didn't. That should be a massive clue that the Reapers had something else in mind for him.

Modifié par hex23, 15 mars 2012 - 06:55 .


#12
Deztyn

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I think Shepard is in a coma. I believe that she never woke up after Eden Prime, and all of Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 after she 'woke' in the medbay is just an elaborate nightmare vision caused by her exposure to the Prothean beacon.

Now disprove my theory.

#13
Lyrandori

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The only so called "evidence" I've read about that COULD be considered (I did, too) and is hinting that Shepard was NOT indoctrinated, and that somehow BioWare thought that the endings we do have "really happened" (not a nightmare, not indoctrination, really happened), is the Prothean A.I. on Thessia. That Prothean A.I. "detected indoctrination" when Kai Leng arrived, since indeed just as much as the Illusive Man happens to be indoctrinated. Since Shepard had been talking to the A.I. for some time before Kai arrived and since the A.I. never reacted to any indoctrinated presence, then it "should mean" that Shepard was in fact "normal" and not indoctrinated.

My problem with that "evidence" (more like a theory) is the following:

1) That A.I. is Prothean, which means it was built by Protheans 50,000 years earlier during their own cycle. Whatever method(s) is used to detect indoctrination must be method(s) / technology of detection that happens to be detecting specific "types of" indoctrination that the builders of that A.I. happened to be aware of during their own cycle. That means - possibly - that Kai Leng's indoctrination is a mere coincidence that it had been detected by the A.I., due to the type of indoctrination "used" for Kai Leng which was "detectable" to start with.

2) Shepard, contrarily to Kai Leng, from what we know (maybe it's not the case) has (most likely) a crap load of synthetic implants in his/her body, which might alter the "detection method" or capabilities of the Prothean A.I. But MORE IMPORTANTLY, Shepard is able to "think like" a Prothean (as mentioned in M1 by Liara, thanks to touching the Beacon on Eden Prime and not only that, being able, over time, with help from Liara's mind melding sessions, to figure out what it means, partially). And in ME3's Eden Prime mission (Prothean DLC) Shepard is the ONLY ONE able to actually see and understand all the "footage" of events that happened to a specific group of Protheans as they were being killed by Reapers and escaping to stasis pods, which indeed demonstrates that Shepard is able to think like and understand Protheans and might just happen to be developing a Prothean psychology. And BECAUSE of that, it might be possible that the Prothean A.I.'s detection methods on Thessia was not able to detect Shepard's potential indoctrination since the A.I. might have considered Shepard as a Prothean (without necessarily mentioning just that out loud and word-by-word).

Either way, the indoctrination theory has more in its favor than not. Anything that "can disprove" the theory, while possibly existing (at least in-game) is still quite difficult to find.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 15 mars 2012 - 06:53 .


#14
GreatBandit

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MisterNugNug wrote...

Why Indoctrinate Shepard? If he/she is lying on the ground, why not kill Shepard? One individual has amassed the galaxy's alien races together; united them to confront you. Killing him/her would destroy morale and resolve amongst the races.


Shepard would be a much stronger ally indoctrinated over being killed.

#15
RxP4IN

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Esquin wrote...

If the indoctrination theory is correct then that means bioware sold us an unfinished game.

This isn't intended as proof of it being wrong. Just proof that ethically it was the wrong choice for a company to make.


^Boom.

While I wish the theory were true...all signs point to bad writing/poor execution.

#16
CommanderWilliams

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Fair enough, I see your point. Trying to disprove Religion is just as hard as proving it. But with that said, this isn't a religious debate where neither side has significant evidence. I believe everything point toward the theory being true. I'm asking for anything that points toward it being untrue. And I still don't see any.

#17
MisterNugNug

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CommanderWilliams wrote...

Its true. That makes sense, but remember this. Harbinger made a really big deal out of keeping Shepard alive i ME2. He was even responsible for recovering Shepard's body (explained in Shadow Broker)

Why? I have no idea but hopefully it is explained the DLC. (Possibly to Harvest him) As a side note, having control of who is effectively the most important person in the galaxy could prove helpful to Harbinger since he isn't going to kill EVERYONE.

Also I don't think people would just lay down and die if Shepard were to fall. Morale would drop yes, but not so extremely.


Its actually agravating and I don't know if Bioware understands this.  IF the Indoctrination theory is true, WHY; end the game at that point?  If you're trying to do something edgy, GREAT.  I'm all for that.  But WHY end the game at THAT point?  

You know what they could have done?  Kept the endings the same EXCEPT change the destroy ending.  If players chose the destroy ending, Shepard snaps out of the Indoctrination process and wakes up just like the post-credit cutscene.  THEN the game continues on.  To me that scenario works.  But to end the trilogy under these circumstances, that I cannot fathom.  Fans are now left in limbo, because we don't have "True" endings to our stories.  And I've stated this before and I'll state this again, we have FANS that have personal stories three games in the making.  We all want a conclusive end.  That's it.

I don't mind if Sheppard dies.  I'm cool with that.  I've already seen Mordin and Thane die right in front of me, the stakes are high, as a player I know some characters aren't going to make it through this alive.  And that's the great thing.

#18
FabricatedWookie

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It takes more work to accept indoctrination theory than to reject it. I can see where many elements do make sense. However, the endings are the clear and apparent reality. Even if indoc theory proves true over time, as it stands now it is merely a possibility.

What points to it being untrue is that indoc theory was created after the endings were presented to give a deeper and more acceptable meaning to the endings. It rejects the apparent reality first and embraces the underlying, non apparent, "truth," as patched together by many people. Breathing in space? Mass effect fields can be active for atmosphere. London rubble? Not necessarily, it is assumed to be london rubble, it isn't necessarily london rubble. The kid's dialogue is awkward. A lot of dialogue and animations are awkward, "Damn it shepard for the **** you've done any other soldier would be tried and court martialed (*inner thought* why is anderson telling a council specter he would be court martialed?)" etc etc

The evidence against indoc theory is by accepting what it is, a collection of circumstantial events that people accept as proof, when there are endings given. Endings that create far too many questions for the average player to be comfortable with.

Modifié par FabricatedWookie, 15 mars 2012 - 07:03 .


#19
Dae0

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At this point it's just a waiting game for me. It could, imo, be either the indoctrination ending or just really bad writing.

Time will tell...

#20
Dilandau3000

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The god-child is the son of The Illusive Man. Disprove it.

There not being evidence to the contrary doesn't mean it's true. And all the evidence in favour is circumstantial at best. Essentially, because the ending is so vague it's nearly impossible to prove or disprove anything about it.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 15 mars 2012 - 06:56 .


#21
Lost Cipher

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Occam's Razor and Russell's Teapot...

For an in universe explanation. You are Commander Shepard, the only gal/girl who has killed multiple Reapers. Last time I checked malevolent gods tend to be massive dicks. Why would they want a Gordon Freeman walking about... putting crowbars in their stuff.

#22
Dae0

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MisterNugNug wrote...

CommanderWilliams wrote...

Its true. That makes sense, but remember this. Harbinger made a really big deal out of keeping Shepard alive i ME2. He was even responsible for recovering Shepard's body (explained in Shadow Broker)

Why? I have no idea but hopefully it is explained the DLC. (Possibly to Harvest him) As a side note, having control of who is effectively the most important person in the galaxy could prove helpful to Harbinger since he isn't going to kill EVERYONE.

Also I don't think people would just lay down and die if Shepard were to fall. Morale would drop yes, but not so extremely.


Its actually agravating and I don't know if Bioware understands this.  IF the Indoctrination theory is true, WHY; end the game at that point?  If you're trying to do something edgy, GREAT.  I'm all for that.  But WHY end the game at THAT point?  

You know what they could have done?  Kept the endings the same EXCEPT change the destroy ending.  If players chose the destroy ending, Shepard snaps out of the Indoctrination process and wakes up just like the post-credit cutscene.  THEN the game continues on.  To me that scenario works.  But to end the trilogy under these circumstances, that I cannot fathom.  Fans are now left in limbo, because we don't have "True" endings to our stories.  And I've stated this before and I'll state this again, we have FANS that have personal stories three games in the making.  We all want a conclusive end.  That's it.

I don't mind if Sheppard dies.  I'm cool with that.  I've already seen Mordin and Thane die right in front of me, the stakes are high, as a player I know some characters aren't going to make it through this alive.  And that's the great thing.



The only way the indoctrination ending makes sense is if Bioware had been planning to release an ending dlc since before the release date...

#23
TheRisenStar

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Why don't we teach people logic in primary education? I'm serious, I mean no real disrespect.

You cannot prove a negative: Unfair burden (fallacy).

I too want something more to be at work here, but hopecasting and bad logic won't make it a reality. That's salt water you're drinking.

Modifié par TheRisenStar, 15 mars 2012 - 06:59 .


#24
MisterNugNug

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hex23 wrote...
As I said in another thread:

Because in "Arrival" they said they want his mind...not his brain...his mind.

www.youtube.com/watch

They even say "patch him up....we want Shepard alive" after you lose the shoot out in the first Object Rho scene.

They also had 2+ days to kill him while he was in close proximity to Object Rho, and didn't. That should be a massive clue that the Reapers had something else in mind for him.


Great, okay so why wasn't that question answered for me in the endings?  Why am I sitting here arguing about a theory to a potential ending to a story instead of arguing about the ACTUAL ending to the story?

#25
hex23

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FabricatedWookie wrote...

It takes more work to accept indoctrination theory than to reject it.


Uh....no. Indoctrination theory makes a hell of a lot more sense than Ghost Kid + Space Magic, no Mass Relays, no Citadel, no Synthetics, your crew stranded on another world, plus millions of aliens stuck on Earth with no resources to sustain them.

Also there's the problem of Shepard surviving the Citadel blowing up in space, but him being shown alive on Earth.