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[soundhole]

sorentoft wrote...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Ahem...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

You know, for emphasis.

[soundhole]

Beast919 wrote...

So you think its logical for a company that's created a 99% amazing product to completely fall flat on its face in the last 5 minutes, include a nonsense teaser footage after a specific ending, and still try to sell DLC afterwards.  I'm not seeing that.  And again, I'm not in denial.  I'm well aware that unless its changed, the current ending is awwwwwwwwwwwwful.  But even if its only for the sake of 'headcanon', I'd like to entertain the notion that there was a purpose behind it, or there's some hope going forward for the IP (even assuming the endings are 'truth').

It's the only remaining answer.  Fact is, there is no evidence for an indoctrination interpretation.  It's fanciful delusions.  You can believe in whatever baselss crap you want, there is no evidence of intent behind the crappy ending.  

[Mcfly616]

@Gbentley: my thoughts is its just another hint that its not reality. Whether it be indoctrination or a dream, he's unconscious and what the player is seeing is not "real". Unconsciousness later confirmed by Shep waking up in the rubble in London. I find it funny that people fight the subtle hints and the last scene when Bioware throws it in your face, these people just disregard it....since when has Bioware writers working on Mass Effect ever completely f***ed up? They're gonna decide to now? I'm a long time Bioware fan. Anybody else that is, should know a Bioware twist when they see one

[Beast919]

soundhole wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Ahem...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

You know, for emphasis.

*ahem*

still not a single person has come up with even a simple explanation for why they would include the teaser footage of Shepard being alive following the destruction ending.  Either he's teleported down to Earth by space magic (which would be out of the frying pan and into the kettle as the Citadel is about to smash into Earth and ruin it), or he's still floating in space after being in the very center of the entire explosion, but he's in rubble so its k.

Anyone.  Anyone answer this one.  Don't forget to include what in god's name comes next.

[Ieldra]

Evidence against the indoctrination hypothesis? Here's some:

(1) If you have low EMC, you have no choice about the ending. First the Synthesis disappears, then the second option depending on whether you kept the Collector base or not. The indoctrination hypothesis posits that "destroy is the only option". Were that true, then some players would automatically lose while some players would automatically win, based on a decision made in ME2. I do not find that plausible.

(2) The indoctrination hypothesis posits that Shepard waking up on Earth is a sign he has broken free and can now go on to the "real final choice". The problem with this is that a majority of players will never see that ending because it's so difficult to get the required EMS. Basically a majority of players will lose.

What this means is this:

If this is true, then Bioware has lured a majority of players (those who didn't get enough EMC and those who chose Control or Synthesis) into a false sense of having won. Is this really plausible?

At the very least, I would say that if the ending scenes are not real, then there will be some way to go on regardless of which decision you made.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[Beast919]

Mcfly616 wrote...

@Gbentley: my thoughts is its just another hint that its not reality. Whether it be indoctrination or a dream, he's unconscious and what the player is seeing is not "real". Unconsciousness later confirmed by Shep waking up in the rubble in London. I find it funny that people fight the subtle hints and the last scene when Bioware throws it in your face, these people just disregard it....since when has Bioware writers working on Mass Effect ever completely f***ed up? They're gonna decide to now? I'm a long time Bioware fan. Anybody else that is, should know a Bioware twist when they see one

This, a million times this - not a single person has explained the purpose of this goddamned scene.  Its not rocket science.  You include a teaser, TO TEASE SOMETHING.  

WHAT.
ARE.
THEY.
TEASING?

[PlumPaul93]

soundhole wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Ahem...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

You know, for emphasis.

you're my hero

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Actually it is the best argument because that is what it is, until you can prove me wrong of course.

This stubborn nonsense helps no one.  I've already established that nothing can be *proven* under the current amount of information.  I am simply seeking out another explanation for *why*, cause so far, logic only points to one answer.  If, in the end, we are looking at the finished product, then there simply is no answer.  However, I doubt that, so I'm curious to see if anyone else can come up with another *why*.  And not simply assume Bioware is capable of submarining their entire IP in 10 minutes.

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explination for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

So you think its logical for a company that's created a 99% amazing product to completely fall flat on its face in the last 5 minutes, include a nonsense teaser footage after a specific ending, and still try to sell DLC afterwards.  I'm not seeing that.  And again, I'm not in denial.  I'm well aware that unless its changed, the current ending is awwwwwwwwwwwwful.  But even if its only for the sake of 'headcanon', I'd like to entertain the notion that there was a purpose behind it, or there's some hope going forward for the IP (even assuming the endings are 'truth').

It is completely logical. It has happened before. Bioware is not infallible, if anything ME3 proves this.

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

It is completely logical. It has happened before. Bioware is not infallible, if anything ME3 proves this.

I've never seen anything like this happen before.  In order for the reaction to be this strong, it has to be proportionally un-reasonable for it to have occured.  Never seen anything *close* to this before.

[Mcfly616]

So no....logic does not point to poor writing....atleast not when it comes to Bioware(some of the best writers in the gaming industry)....in fact logic points to all the subtle clues thrown in your face in the last 10 minutes that its not over.....I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Like people are over-thinking the logic right out of their brains haha. When have they not tied everything together? They just pulled a fast one on everybody, which apparently went over the majority of peoples heads

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

@Gbentley: my thoughts is its just another hint that its not reality. Whether it be indoctrination or a dream, he's unconscious and what the player is seeing is not "real". Unconsciousness later confirmed by Shep waking up in the rubble in London. I find it funny that people fight the subtle hints and the last scene when Bioware throws it in your face, these people just disregard it....since when has Bioware writers working on Mass Effect ever completely f***ed up? They're gonna decide to now? I'm a long time Bioware fan. Anybody else that is, should know a Bioware twist when they see one

This, a million times this - not a single person has explained the purpose of this goddamned scene.  Its not rocket science.  You include a teaser, TO TEASE SOMETHING.  

WHAT.
ARE.
THEY.
TEASING?

That Shepard is alive and well despite the Citadel blew up, I told you before. It is nothing more than that really.

[Wabajakka]

Naarad wrote...

I only see the possibility that Shepard might be alive after the Citadel's blast. That's it. You've got no right to decide it happens before the ending just because you say so. The ending, and the order in which the scenes are presented says otherwise. And that's fact, that's canon, you don't get to move scenes around as you please to fit your theory.

But you see you kinda need to wake up after a dream (or whatever you want to call what happened)... He was knocked out before hand (wasn't directly hit by the laser from what it looked like), then wakes up after the sequence under a pile of rubble, so there's a possibility it didn't happen, easy enough really. So the fact is the possibility is still there and your being a bit too dismissive of the fact.

I've gotta say this thread pretty redundant although true because it is actually impossible to disprove this theory considering there is absolutely zero evidence to go against it other than "what happened, happened" as of now and the only people who can truly disprove it is Bioware themselves saying that "What happened, happened and there's no 'real ending' DLC". I know it also means the theory may not be necessarily true, but it's interesting because of how well it connects to everything that's happened. 

End of  story really. I just hope for the best and that Bioware will say yes or no to the damn real ending/ 'the truth' DLC rumours soon.

[Naarad]

The problem here is not brilliant or poor writing. Is the people that buy the Indoctrination theory and then go on arguing they're intelectually superior to everyone else and if you didn't get the clues then you're just an idiot.

It's a discussion you can't win.

[Gbentley]

Well, after the credits roll and the two ppl are talking. The child asks to hear more of Shepard. Then after the game prompts me to continue the legend by continuing the game and using dlc. I'm assuming more story add ins will be out, but wether it's additional ending material or just some of the usual I'm not sure.

You think anything can be infered by the ending after credits combined with the prompt to continue the legend?

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

@Gbentley: my thoughts is its just another hint that its not reality. Whether it be indoctrination or a dream, he's unconscious and what the player is seeing is not "real". Unconsciousness later confirmed by Shep waking up in the rubble in London. I find it funny that people fight the subtle hints and the last scene when Bioware throws it in your face, these people just disregard it....since when has Bioware writers working on Mass Effect ever completely f***ed up? They're gonna decide to now? I'm a long time Bioware fan. Anybody else that is, should know a Bioware twist when they see one

This, a million times this - not a single person has explained the purpose of this goddamned scene.  Its not rocket science.  You include a teaser, TO TEASE SOMETHING.  

WHAT.
ARE.
THEY.
TEASING?

That Shepard is alive and well despite the Citadel blew up, I told you before. It is nothing more than that really.

Really.  You're ok with accepting that.  That is how they're going to end the story of Shepard. 

So, this amazing super hero you all know and love, yeah, he was in a massive explosion and the entire galaxy is changed/ruined, but he's just napping in some rubble so its k.  But only if you blew up the robots.  Otherwise he ain't k.

Modifié par Beast919, 15 mars 2012 - 09:54 .

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

It is completely logical. It has happened before. Bioware is not infallible, if anything ME3 proves this.

I've never seen anything like this happen before.  In order for the reaction to be this strong, it has to be proportionally un-reasonable for it to have occured.  Never seen anything *close* to this before.

Bad endings by good writers happen all the time. It is nothing new.

[vigna]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I heard the leaked script had Joker come down to buttrape Harbinger. Harbinger fought back, and was indoctrinating Shepard by multitasking.

It has to be something like that. I was confused by how much love Joker got at the end, and he wasn't really doing anything story related.... Just seemed odd.

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

It is completely logical. It has happened before. Bioware is not infallible, if anything ME3 proves this.

I've never seen anything like this happen before.  In order for the reaction to be this strong, it has to be proportionally un-reasonable for it to have occured.  Never seen anything *close* to this before.

Bad endings by good writers happen all the time. It is nothing new.

The more important the product, the more people look at it.  The more people look at it, the more people notice inconsitencies.  I have a very, very, very hard time believing *every single person* who looked at this ending compared to the rest of the series was like "Well.....yeah, this wraps things up."

Seriously.  This was not a 1 man show.  Even if the idea for the ending was born in 1 man's mind, it was not CARRIED OUT by 1 man.  This was the most important part of the entire trilogy, and you're postulating that NO ONE saw it coming as being this bad.  That, sir, is illogical.

[Gbentley]

EA has also been on a crusade against used games. They could be using this as a marketing ploy for ppl to keep the games instead if trading it in right away to milk more money.

[PlumPaul93]

Naarad wrote...

The problem here is not brilliant or poor writing. Is the people that buy the Indoctrination theory and then go on arguing they're intelectually superior to everyone else and if you didn't get the clues then you're just an idiot.

It's a discussion you can't win.

This. Let's stop wasting time on theories and work together to get better endings (though all I want is an epilogue).

[Nightfall1990]

Harbinger messes with shepards brain after he knocks him out cold at the end.

[Mcfly616]

Beast919 we are in the same shoes bro. I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything. As if my post is invisible to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the nay-sayers are the ones reaching for straws. The have no details other than "bad writing". They say nothing as if the scene does not exist to them. One guy did come to me with "he fell to earth on the citadel". I was in complete awe, that he considered Shep falling from orbit on an exploding space station, surviving atmosphere re-entry and impact more logical than Shep just waking up from being unconscious where Harbinger beamed him.....if that's a theory they wanna roll with, than alrighty then. I feel less intelligent just hearing it lol I'm open to more explanations from the nay sayers on the Waking Up scene

[Gbentley]

Well, the best we can do is wait. And after a few weeks if nothing has arrived, then it can officially be one if the biggest disappointments ever. Just seems odd that a EPIC SPACE TRILOGY that took years and years of dev and years and years of playing, and waiting to conclude like this, especially with the amount of ppl that have become attached to the characters and fiction around them.

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

It is completely logical. It has happened before. Bioware is not infallible, if anything ME3 proves this.

I've never seen anything like this happen before.  In order for the reaction to be this strong, it has to be proportionally un-reasonable for it to have occured.  Never seen anything *close* to this before.

Bad endings by good writers happen all the time. It is nothing new.

The more important the product, the more people look at it.  The more people look at it, the more people notice inconsitencies.  I have a very, very, very hard time believing *every single person* who looked at this ending compared to the rest of the series was like "Well.....yeah, this wraps things up."

Seriously.  This was not a 1 man show.  Even if the idea for the ending was born in 1 man's mind, it was not CARRIED OUT by 1 man.  This was the most important part of the entire trilogy, and you're postulating that NO ONE saw it coming as being this bad.  That, sir, is illogical.

No it is not. It is very likely that the ending would have looked awesome on paper for some of the writers, I mean they finally get the reapers explained and so on and so forth. And to be fair the scene with TIM and Anderson is extremely well done. Would have been even moreso with the extended dialogue. God-child however could easily have slipped through the net of excited writers. Problem is that when the execution is as poor as the writing it just goes off the rails and crashes.

Let's be honest the only terrible scenes are those after Anderson dies - the rest is really good.

[Ieldra]

Naarad wrote...
The problem here is not brilliant or poor writing. Is the people that buy the Indoctrination theory and then go on arguing they're intelectually superior to everyone else and if you didn't get the clues then you're just an idiot.

It's a discussion you can't win.

^So much this. It's like a conspiracy theory. For every objection made, they'll use some asspull to fit it into the framework. This reminds me of solipsism - the funny thing about it is that you can't disprove it from within. Once you accept the premise, everything will appear to fit.