455 réponses à ce sujet

[Beast919]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Beast919 we are in the same shoes bro. I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything. As if my post is invisible to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the nay-sayers are the ones reaching for straws. The have no details other than "bad writing". They say nothing as if the scene does not exist to them. One guy did come to me with "he fell to earth on the citadel". I was in complete awe, that he considered Shep falling from orbit on an exploding space station, surviving atmosphere re-entry and impact more logical than Shep just waking up from being unconscious where Harbinger beamed him.....if that's a theory they wanna roll with, than alrighty then. I feel less intelligent just hearing it lol I'm open to more explanations from the nay sayers on the Waking Up scene

What I think is the most amusing about this, is I'm not saying Indoc is infallible, that its gospel.

I'm simply saying, there is evidence to support that *something* is up, there is *SOMETHING* going on with that ending scene.  And I have absolutely no explanation whatsoever other than Indoc atm.  

[Naarad]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Beast919 we are in the same shoes bro. I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything. As if my post is invisible to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the nay-sayers are the ones reaching for straws. The have no details other than "bad writing". They say nothing as if the scene does not exist to them. One guy did come to me with "he fell to earth on the citadel". I was in complete awe, that he considered Shep falling from orbit on an exploding space station, surviving atmosphere re-entry and impact more logical than Shep just waking up from being unconscious where Harbinger beamed him.....if that's a theory they wanna roll with, than alrighty then. I feel less intelligent just hearing it lol I'm open to more explanations from the nay sayers on the Waking Up scene

He doesn't wake up (that's your assumption). His body spasms.  That's it. It's a common spasm that happens when (and that's why the focus on his chest) his lungs begin breathing again. OH. THE SHOCKER.

[Winterfly]

I still wonder why my hard to the bone Sentinel Renegade Shepard gives a damn about one kid. He would kill a million pregnant women to win a war. Why would he be all buhuhu, buhuhu buhuhu! Over one kid? Hell I even in my mind had him pro Cerberus until that idea got tossed out the window of automatic Cerberus hate in the second game.

[Naarad]

Winterfly, he's not your shepard. It's Bioware's renegade Shepard. Sorry.

[Edje Edgar]

Beast919 wrote...

Really.  You're ok with accepting that.  That is how they're going to end the story of Shepard. 

So, this amazing super hero you all know and love, yeah, he was in a massive explosion and the entire galaxy is changed/ruined, but he's just napping in some rubble so its k.  But only if you blew up the robots.  Otherwise he ain't k.

Rofl, so true.

About the whole theory:

When did he get indoctrinated? Was it before or after the beam hit him? If it was before the beam hit him, then when did it happen? Back in TIM's HQ he's clearly not yet indoctrinated, the VI can sense this. Between that and the citadel he doesnt come in touch with any reaper artefacts, so it wouldt make any sense.

If it was after he entered the Citadel, the whole Shep lives and lies in the rubble scene makes absolutely no sense either.

[Gbentley]

Hey BIOWARE!

I would love to know what the entire dev team thinks about the ending.

[Solassan]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

I heard the leaked script had Joker come down to buttrape Harbinger. Harbinger fought back, and was indoctrinating Shepard by multitasking.

That would have made the game a million times better. I want to see this.

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

No it is not. It is very likely that the ending would have looked awesome on paper for some of the writers, I mean they finally get the reapers explained and so on and so forth. And to be fair the scene with TIM and Anderson is extremely well done. Would have been even moreso with the extended dialogue. God-child however could easily have slipped through the net of excited writers. Problem is that when the execution is as poor as the writing it just goes off the rails and crashes.

Let's be honest the only terrible scenes are those after Anderson dies - the rest is really good.

Harbinger just leaving after blasting you is good.

You not giving ONE DAMN about your squad is good.

You ignoring THE BLEEDING CORSPE OF YOUR LOVE INTEREST is good.

Anderson and you IGNORING YOUR ALLIES PANICKED RADIO RESPONSES is good.

You being set on a one-way Disney-land path towards a magic console suspended in the middle of nowhere is good.

TIM approaching you unarmed and making a gun appear out of nowhere is good.

The reapers doing nothing to control TIM's body post-death (DESPITE HIM BEING A CARBON COPY OF SAREN) is good.

The citadel being completely void of Reaper defenses is good.

Your magical communication with Hackett not extending to Joker....or your squad....or anyone else whatsoever....is good. 

But put all that aside, just for a moment, and consider all the voice actors who were ignored in the final stages of the game.  So whoever did Ashley is getting in character, trying to gear up for the emotional speech at the end right before you make the final assault, and asks "So, how does my character end up here?  What am I looking  foward to."  And just gets blank stares.  Repeat for EDI, Tali, Garrus, Wrex, Joker, Vega, Javik, etc.

Then think about Shepard him/herself.  Someone read those lines.  Someone who had devoted continued service to this trilogy as the defining voice of the game, and they end it like *THAT*?  

Someone saw this coming.  Someone would have spoken up. 

Modifié par Beast919, 15 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[Beast919]

Edje Edgar wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Really.  You're ok with accepting that.  That is how they're going to end the story of Shepard. 

So, this amazing super hero you all know and love, yeah, he was in a massive explosion and the entire galaxy is changed/ruined, but he's just napping in some rubble so its k.  But only if you blew up the robots.  Otherwise he ain't k.

Rofl, so true.

About the whole theory:

When did he get indoctrinated? Was it before or after the beam hit him? If it was before the beam hit him, then when did it happen? Back in TIM's HQ he's clearly not yet indoctrinated, the VI can sense this. Between that and the citadel he doesnt come in touch with any reaper artefacts, so it wouldt make any sense.

If it was after he entered the Citadel, the whole Shep lives and lies in the rubble scene makes absolutely no sense either.

Its post-beam.  Shep gets hit and falls unconcious, then undergoes his final 'test' by Harby to see if he can break his will or not.

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Beast919 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

@Gbentley: my thoughts is its just another hint that its not reality. Whether it be indoctrination or a dream, he's unconscious and what the player is seeing is not "real". Unconsciousness later confirmed by Shep waking up in the rubble in London. I find it funny that people fight the subtle hints and the last scene when Bioware throws it in your face, these people just disregard it....since when has Bioware writers working on Mass Effect ever completely f***ed up? They're gonna decide to now? I'm a long time Bioware fan. Anybody else that is, should know a Bioware twist when they see one

This, a million times this - not a single person has explained the purpose of this goddamned scene.  Its not rocket science.  You include a teaser, TO TEASE SOMETHING.  

WHAT.
ARE.
THEY.
TEASING?

That Shepard is alive and well despite the Citadel blew up, I told you before. It is nothing more than that really.

Really.  You're ok with accepting that.  That is how they're going to end the story of Shepard. 

So, this amazing super hero you all know and love, yeah, he was in a massive explosion and the entire galaxy is changed/ruined, but he's just napping in some rubble so its k.  But only if you blew up the robots.  Otherwise he ain't k.

I'm okay with accepting it, yes. Does not mean I like it. The endings are god awful and I wish your theory was right, but it is not. Bioware dropped the ball and that is all there is to it really.

[Mcfly616]

A spasm you say? And what would be so significant about that for them to just throw it in your face in the last scene you see? Hmm....just for the record I don't know if he's being indoctrinated or just dreaming.....but he sure as hell is out cold. Only a fool would believe its all said and done. But whatever I'll find gratification once the announcement comes before the end if the month, gratification in the fact the you were wrong. But not because you were wrong, but because you act as if the theory holds no water whatsoever when in actuality its overflowing with hints....no I'm reaching or digging for anything....they're right in your face lol

[Gbentley]

Yeah, no epic boss battle with harbinger? Thought that was a bit strange. They make all that effort to come down to earth to stop you... And... He leaves?

[Naarad]

Mcfly616 wrote...

A spasm you say? And what would be so significant about that for them to just throw it in your face in the last scene you see? Hmm....just for the record I don't know if he's being indoctrinated or just dreaming.....but he sure as hell is out cold. Only a fool would believe its all said and done. But whatever I'll find gratification once the announcement comes before the end if the month, gratification in the fact the you were wrong. But not because you were wrong, but because you act as if the theory holds no water whatsoever when in actuality its overflowing with hints....no I'm reaching or digging for anything....they're right in your face lol

/facepalm

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

I'm okay with accepting it, yes. Does not mean I like it. The endings are god awful and I wish your theory was right, but it is not. Bioware dropped the ball and that is all there is to it really.

The fact that you can simply state that as fact is a sad example of your character.  If you're not even willing to entertain the notion that they had a creative reason behind the obvious teaser footage, you might well be the most close-minded person I've ever met.

Its always possible that what we've seen is all there is.  But that doesn't make it fact, and it *certainly* does not make it logical.

[Ieldra]

Mcfly616 wrote...
I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything.

There is no indication of where exactly this takes place. It signifies that Shepard has survived. Nothing more, nothing less.

But as I said, the main problem with this is that most players will never see that scene, because it's so difficult to get the required EMS. At the moment, it's impossible without MP. Which means that Bioware has lured a majority of players into a false sense of having won. I do not think that is plausible.

If the ending sequence is not real and there's something coming after, then there will be a way to go on regardless of which choice you made. As long as you weren't killed by TIM, that is.

[Mcfly616]

I'm not* reaching or digging for anything....the clues are right in your face. You can take the last 10 mins at face value and its still in your face

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

No it is not. It is very likely that the ending would have looked awesome on paper for some of the writers, I mean they finally get the reapers explained and so on and so forth. And to be fair the scene with TIM and Anderson is extremely well done. Would have been even moreso with the extended dialogue. God-child however could easily have slipped through the net of excited writers. Problem is that when the execution is as poor as the writing it just goes off the rails and crashes.

Let's be honest the only terrible scenes are those after Anderson dies - the rest is really good.

Harbinger just leaving after blasting you is good.

You not giving ONE DAMN about your squad is good.

You ignoring THE BLEEDING CORSPE OF YOUR LOVE INTEREST is good.

Anderson and you IGNORING YOUR ALLIES PANICKED RADIO RESPONSES is good.

You being set on a one-way Disney-land path towards a magic console suspended in the middle of nowhere is good.

TIM approaching you unarmed and making a gun appear out of nowhere is good.

The reapers doing nothing to control TIM's body post-death (DESPITE HIM BEING A CARBON COPY OF SAREN) is good.

The citadel being completely void of Reaper defenses is good.

Your magical communication with Hackett not extending to Joker....or your squad....or anyone else whatsoever....is good. 

But put all that aside, just for a moment, and consider all the voice actors who were ignored in the final stages of the game.  So whoever did Ashley is getting in character, trying to gear up for the emotional speech at the end right before you make the final assault, and asks "So, how does my character end up here?  What am I looking  foward to."  And just gets blank stares.  Repeat for EDI, Tali, Garrus, Wrex, Joker, Vega, Javik, etc.

Then think about Shepard him/herself.  Someone read those lines.  Someone who had devoted continued service to this trilogy as the defining voice of the game, and they end it like *THAT*?  

Someone saw this coming.  Someone would have spoken up.

1. A blast should have been more than enough to kill Shepard, and now Harby needs to fight the fleets.
2-4. Fate of the Galaxy at stake.
5. No comment. That is just... <_<
6. He takes Anderson's gun.
7. We don't know that.
8. They had defense. TIM, and you know that entire army you just fought your way through.
9. Radio contact. Truly space magic.

As for the whole Normandy fleeing. Yeah it is bad, but to use it to support your theory? Seriously?

[PlumPaul93]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm not* reaching or digging for anything....the clues are right in your face. You can take the last 10 mins at face value and its still in your face

lol

[Beast919]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything.

There is no indication of where exactly this takes place. It signifies that Shepard has survived. Nothing more, nothing less.

But as I said, the main problem with this is that most players will never see that scene, because it's so difficult to get the required EMS. At the moment, it's impossible without MP. Which means that Bioware has lured a majority of players into a false sense of having won. I do not think that is plausible.

If the ending sequence is not real and there's something coming after, then there will be a way to go on regardless of which choice you made. As long as you weren't killed by TIM, that is.

The fact that its so rare (in terms of what % of the players *actually* saw that ending and didn't youtube it) defines it as teaser footage.  Bonus, special footage.  Which has some kind of *intent* behind it.

Also, thats the crazy weird genius behind the theory.  2/3 of the choices end in the *player* choosing indoctrination, and even if you pick the right option, if you haven't exhausted *all* your options, you still don't manage to survive long enough to do something about it (in theory).  In essence, they're simply proving the impossible odds against the mission.

[Naarad]

Reposting it, since it's just being ignored. Apparently they don't like the answer if it makes sense:

Mcfly616 wrote...

Beast919 we are in the same shoes bro. I've asked politely on about 10 different threads for somebody from the camp.that is opposed to the indoc/dream to just give me their explanation/perspective/point of view on the scene where Shepard WAKES UP(meaning he was unconscious!) covered in rubble in the street where he was blasted by Harbinger.....no one says anything. As if my post is invisible to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the nay-sayers are the ones reaching for straws. The have no details other than "bad writing". They say nothing as if the scene does not exist to them. One guy did come to me with "he fell to earth on the citadel". I was in complete awe, that he considered Shep falling from orbit on an exploding space station, surviving atmosphere re-entry and impact more logical than Shep just waking up from being unconscious where Harbinger beamed him.....if that's a theory they wanna roll with, than alrighty then. I feel less intelligent just hearing it lol I'm open to more explanations from the nay sayers on the Waking Up scene

He doesn't wake up (that's your assumption). His body spasms.  That's it. It's a common spasm that happens when (and that's why the focus on his chest) his lungs begin breathing again. OH. THE SHOCKER.

[Tsantilas]

This thread is like asking people for evidence disproving the existence of the easter bunny or Santa Clause. Presents mysteriously appear under your Christmas tree so it must be Santa!

There is no evidence or proof in the narrative that point towards it being indoctrination. The only relevant scenes during the game are:

1: The Prothean VI states Shepard isn't indoctrinated
2: The scene where TIM uses his reaper tech implants to try and control Shepard and Anderson.

There is no other mention of Shepard being indoctrinated or hallucinating, so there is no reason to believe he is. If a patch/dlc or statement from Bioware makes it clear that the Indoctrination theory is infact true, that will simply mean that:

a: Bioware has been following these forums and finds that the indoctrination theory is an easy solution to the whole problem and decides to make it canon
b: The writing is bad, because only a small part of the playerbase picked up on some some vague hints and came up with their own interpretation of them to figure out the "real deal".

[Mcfly616]

Ever had a dream and you're running from/to something, but your legs won't move fast enough? Notice how everything is slow motion after Harby beams you? This is something I just thought of actually....another thing I haven't seen mentioned, you get TIM to take himself out in almost exactly the same way you could get Saren to blow his brains out? Yeah that's just coincidence right? These aren't even the hardest evidence....but more fuel to the fire so to speak

[sorentoft]

Beast919 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

I'm okay with accepting it, yes. Does not mean I like it. The endings are god awful and I wish your theory was right, but it is not. Bioware dropped the ball and that is all there is to it really.

The fact that you can simply state that as fact is a sad example of your character.  If you're not even willing to entertain the notion that they had a creative reason behind the obvious teaser footage, you might well be the most close-minded person I've ever met.

Its always possible that what we've seen is all there is.  But that doesn't make it fact, and it *certainly* does not make it logical.

Of course it makes it logical. As I said before:

sorentoft wrote...

Logic points to one answer: Bad writing and bad execution. Seeking desperately after an alternative explanation for Bioware screwing up is not logic, it is denial.

I am open-minded enough to wish that your theory is correct, but I am also reasonable enough to see that the chances of it being so is close to zero. I am reasonable enough to see that it is built on nothing more than the denial of fans who could not comprehend that Bioware would make this royal a screw up on the endings - I am reasonable enough to see that this is the product of desperation. And from that I am reasonable enough to dismiss it until it is proven right.

Modifié par sorentoft, 15 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[Beast919]

sorentoft wrote...

1. A blast should have been more than enough to kill Shepard, and now Harby needs to fight the fleets.
2-4. Fate of the Galaxy at stake.
5. No comment. That is just... <_<
6. He takes Anderson's gun.
7. We don't know that.
8. They had defense. TIM, and you know that entire army you just fought your way through.
9. Radio contact. Truly space magic.

As for the whole Normandy fleeing. Yeah it is bad, but to use it to support your theory? Seriously?

Why would Harby need to fight the fleets?  The threat you posed was enough to bring Harby *and a squad of reapers* OUT OF ORBIT to come fight you.  And then he leaves before he's done?  What threat do the fleets really pose?

as for 2-4) The fate of the Galaxy is at stake, you're barely standing, someone is alive on the other side of the radio CALLING FOR A RETREAT.....and you remain silent.  Not to mention, in some playthroughs your squad are still alive (i.e. you do not walk past their corspes) - where are they? Why don't they help? Why don't you ask them for help?  You're barely standing!

5) What is wrong with this point - what is wrong with it being absolutely absured that you'd be teleported into a one-way hallway full of bodies....that leads to another one-way bridge...that leads to another one-way bridge with a random console on it that solves all your problems....which Anderson has *also* managed to find within 1 minute (despite entering after you, unarmed and unopposed).

6) Anderson is not armed, and throughout *ALL* the other cutscenes across *ALL* 3 games, people are armed in the cutscenes if they're armed, period.  Anderson is not.  You see his back, you see his front, he is not armed.

7) We know nothing happens at all when TIM shoots himself, even though Shep & And bro it out for a solid 2 minutes while he lies rotting on the ground next to him.  Nothing happens...at all....even though THE ENTIRE REAPER FLEET KNOWS YOU ARE IN THEIR BASE ABOUT TO **** THEIR **** UP.

8) They have an entire army guarding their most prized possession (except, oh wait, Harby just up and leaves this key defensive position), and yet not a single thing inside to protect it.  Yeah, ok.  Brilliant.

9) The fact that he contacts Hackett isn't all that weird in of itself.  What makes no sense is its A) Out of nowhere, Shepard himself doesn't initiate any contact with anyone throughout the entire sequence, and C) After being told he is ABOUT TO BLOW UP THE ENTIRE RELAY SYSTEM, he chooses not to send a single warning to anyone.  Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  Ok.

[Gbentley]

My best theory:

EA has been a crusade against the used game market, and ppl have even mentioned that dlc and the release if dlc early is important because they don't want ppl trading in games. So this ending is probably the actual ending if the game. They will argue that it's complete and left open for dlc.

The dlc will include stories to bring closure for ppl who want to invest more time in the story. The Shepard waking up is more then likely a teaser of something to come.

Thoughts?